maverik_girl Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 are the traitor primarchs high up in the daemon rankings? I looked up An'garath and was surprised that Angron wasn't on par with An'garath or better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 That depends on the whims of Chaos Gods. If Khorne decides to beef up Angron, he will surpass both Angarath or Doombreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2780998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Some of the Daemon princes are far more powerful than others. For instance in the chaos demons codex, it says that generally daemon princes are looked down upon by true daemons for their "mortal" beginnings. Then you look at Armageddon when Angron invaded it he had a bodyguard of Bloodthristers sooo it just depends largely. An'grath the Unbound is like the ultimate badass (after Khorne that is!) he's pretty much the scariest guy out there in the world of 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 An'grath the Unbound is like the ultimate badass (after Khorne that is!) he's pretty much the scariest guy out there in the world of 40k. Â Since Sanguinius was killed anyway. Â Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate: "The Traitors are beginning to overrun us, all units fall back to the secondary defences! No heroics, I... Wait, give me five minutes." Five minutes and one shattered Bloodthirster spine later "Sorry, I had a score to settle. Now we can retreat." Â But yes, there seems to be something of a odd relationship of power between greater daemons and daemon princes. For example princes are noted to be weaker but tend to be in places of authority and have total control over the daemon worlds despite not being the strongest beings in the warp. The Primarchs would certainly have an advantage over the average daemon prince but that doesn't mean they'll be the greatest of their patron god's servants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I think it has something to do with Daemon Princes having a goal (generally) and Greater Daemons are simply incarnations of their god. Often times the two things have the same effect - for example, Angron wants to wreck the Imperium, and Khorne wants slaughter, so with a little ptronage support in the form of 12 bloodthirsters Angron and Khorne both got their wishes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 The differences also come from the contrasts between reality and the warp. Daemons are anchored to the latter and required great sources of power to draw them into realspace. The more powerful the daemon the more power required to draw them. Daemon princes like Angron who began their lives a beings of realspace and still retain their link to it and thus the ability to travel into it without such anchorage. It's the advantage of being a 'halfbreed'. Tanith Ghost was right about the hierarchical aspects of the warp. Generally, pure daemons are seen as superior beings (though not necessarily superior fighters) but need to summoned to cause carnage. This plays into the hands of daemon princes who aren't as bound to it. Â Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes do range in power but this is the 'Lord of Bloodthirsters' we're talking about here. More powerful than Doombreed, Ka'Bandha or Skarbrand. For Angron vs An'ggrath, if there are no worries about the above factors etc, An'ggrath takes it. It's not a 100% given outcome but more than likely imo. Just looking at the rules for both makes this obvious. There are always some people with hard-ons for Primarchs, who don't believe they can be beaten by anything other than another Primarch. It couldn't be further from the truth. There's a reason An'ggrath is Khorne's most favoured and not Angron. The worst thing is that if An'ggrath ever falls out of favour with Khorne, the dark God always has the potential to create something even more powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 An'ggrath could be more favoured than Angron since he has to be loyal. He is an aspect of his lord, whereas Angron just swears fealty to him and could change his mind. Â Who would you favour the most. Someone who has to do what you want, or someone who just likes killing as much as you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dremen Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 If you look at sheer power, Oiad is completly correct. Daemons are essentially part of the god from which they stem. Mortals ascended to Daemonhood cannot compare in power. But the Mortals are as vital a tool as the Daemons but in thier own way. Â I would put forward that Daemons are stronger fighters but weaker tools due, in essence, to what Oiad described. They cannot simply leave the warp at a whim and begin a reign of terror on the galaxy. If they could we would already be lost to the forces of Chaos. In the case of Angron, he is a general who can bring about the pain and suffering to bring forth the greatest Daemons that Khorne can offer. So by fostering violence, hatred, jealousy and rivalry between them it causes Angron to seek to outdo his Rival and thus lead bloody campaigns that allow the Daemons to come forth from the warp. Â Its well known and documented that the False-Gods are strengthened by mortals emotions that are in line with thier "Folder of Domain". What if thier Daemons and Princes actually strengthen them upon thier demise? They act as repositories for the fear and pain they inflict and at the moment of thier death release that stored energy into thier patron. Granted I'm a loyalist, even if I have a stain on my honor because of events, so I know little of the False-Gods and thier works, but it seems to me that Specific Daemons and the Princes are reborn by thier god if they have served well. The energy needed to do this must be vast, and while the gods are powerful they dont have limitless reserves of power. Â It makes sense to me that the greatest of the Dark Gods soldiers are the ones that produce the most energy to strengthen them. Acting as walking batteries so to speak. So Mortal Champions, be they ascended or Daemon, must constantly store this energy to not only bring about thier Gods favor but thier own rebirth. This would lend strength to the idea that Mortals are empowered only to let the Daemons out to gather much more energy for the god that made them. Daemons will always be the more powerful warriors simply because of what they are, but without the Mortal or Daemon-Princes to bring them out they are nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xo'baloc the Thrice Cursed Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 are the traitor primarchs high up in the daemon rankings? I looked up An'garath and was surprised that Angron wasn't on par with An'garath or better. Well, Angron was defeated on Armageddon and banished to the warp. I suppose that must of weakened him a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Slightly OT, but have any of the daemon primarchs done anything yet? Apart from Angron on Armageddon and Mortarion being defeated by that GK guy. Oh and Fulgrim wounding RG, and RG possibly killing Alpharius/Omegan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Slightly OT, but have any of the daemon primarchs done anything yet? Apart from Angron on Armageddon and Mortarion being defeated by that GK guy. Oh and Fulgrim wounding RG, and RG possibly killing Alpharius/Omegan  Well, Alpharius Omegon isn't a daemon primarch for one thing. And as far as we know Mortarion is perfectly fine and any Grey Knight who came within spitting distance of him would have coughed up his lungs and died in seconds.   Anyway, Magnus attacked the Space Wolves and destroyed all research into fixing the flaw in their geneseed. Lorgar's been in meditation for several thousand years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 easy answer, NO. Â other than Angron, the rest of the traitor primarchs havent done diddly. Â WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I always had the impression Primarchs were in fact Daemon Princes, of the Emperor. Those that changed sides took on new sponsors, while those that stayed lost a bit of power due to the waning of the Emperor's power base at the time. Now, if the Loyalist Primarchs were still around, they'd surely have an excess of power much like a Greater Daemon, given the Emperor's status as a living deity and their own cult status. Â SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Slightly OT, but have any of the daemon primarchs done anything yet? Apart from Angron on Armageddon and Mortarion being defeated by that GK guy. Oh and Fulgrim wounding RG, and RG possibly killing Alpharius/Omegan  Well, Alpharius Omegon isn't a daemon primarch for one thing. And as far as we know Mortarion is perfectly fine and any Grey Knight who came within spitting distance of him would have coughed up his lungs and died in seconds.   Anyway, Magnus attacked the Space Wolves and destroyed all research into fixing the flaw in their geneseed. Lorgar's been in meditation for several thousand years.  I've added spoiler tags to this as many folks have not read that new info yet. :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I always had the impression Primarchs were in fact Daemon Princes, of the Emperor. Those that changed sides took on new sponsors, while those that stayed lost a bit of power due to the waning of the Emperor's power base at the time. Now, if the Loyalist Primarchs were still around, they'd surely have an excess of power much like a Greater Daemon, given the Emperor's status as a living deity and their own cult status. The same way I've always seen them too. Primarchs are really just the Imperial equivalent of an MC. Take away the fact that they gave them pretty much every USR there is, Tempus Fugitives did a good take on their profile and rules. They were very much like an Avatar's but with 5W/5A. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I've added spoiler tags to this as many folks have not read that new info yet. :blink: Â Ah, sorry about that. Just about everyone i've met seems to know about it since someone added the entire plot, detail for detail, onto the lexicanum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2781741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Not sure if how relative to the topic this will be but has given me further reasons to offer the following point: Â In a similar thread (finecast minis for primarchs), I wondered about the possibilities that there should be models cast to represent the remaining traitor primarchs considering their potential for being active in 40k, considering that there are rule sets for greater daemons/daemon princes, and according to previous posts in this thread, some of these are said to be more powerful than primarchs so imo can't see a reason for there not being models released. Â I pose this on the basis that, at least fluffwise, that due to their ascention (spelling?) to daemonhood they can be banished back to the warp in the same fashion as other daemons i.e not completely invincible plus it did happen to Angron at Armageddon previously, therefore could see this being plausable or translate into table top and also recall reading that there is a rule set for Angron in apocalype games (may be wrong on this). Â Thoughts folks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2782396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 greater daemons can be stronger than the primarchs although the daemon primarchs rank pretty highly imo. Â let's all just forget about the GK and Mortarion story. It was stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2782740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I think hoping for models is a bit much, maybe Forge World if you're lucky, as they would be worth many hundreds of points. Primarchs are NOT Daemon PRinces "of the Emperor" because they are genetically engineered, completely existent in Realspace and can be permanently killed. And they don't think the Emperor is a god. Because he isn't. Â But back to the main feature... Daemons and Daemon RPinces both have huge advantages, many of which have been covered. One more important one though is that Daemons CAN be permanently destroyed by being re-absorbed by their patron god, there's nothing so far to suggest this can happen to a Daemon Prince. Â Essentially, it's my take that Daemons are more powerful in Warpspace and Daemon Princes more powerful in Realspace. Relatively speaking, that is. Ann'ggrath is always gonna beast a minor Daemon Prince, even in Realspace. Â As for Ann'ggrath and Angron... I'd say Angron would lose in a Warpspace duel for Khorne's amusement, but it could go either way in Realspace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2782746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blamb Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 there's nothing so far to suggest this can happen to a Daemon Prince Though the gods can surely take the gifts back leaving the once prince mortal again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2783320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 there's nothing so far to suggest this can happen to a Daemon Prince Though the gods can surely take the gifts back leaving the once prince mortal again. Â If this was true then the Imperial Punching bag known as M'Kar the reborn would be mortalised faster than all the Primarchs talking about their daddy issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2783664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 there's nothing so far to suggest this can happen to a Daemon Prince Though the gods can surely take the gifts back leaving the once prince mortal again. Â If this was true then the Imperial Punching bag known as M'Kar the reborn would be mortalised faster than all the Primarchs talking about their daddy issues. Indeed :D Â I don't think Daemon Princes could be mortalised simply because the process of becoming a daemon destroys their old body, if the Chaos Gods take away the daemon body what does the ex-daemon prince have left? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2783882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Oh, it's much worse. You displease them too much and they can still turn you into spawn instead. :D Â Personally, I don't consider M'kar's latest escapades as being too bad. He sounds very much like a daemon of 'tricky' Tzeentch as opposed to 'killy' Khorne; this newfound manipulative guile is really starting to weave some labyrinthine plans of deviousness which would please the former. Will the doubt now sown in Mephiston turn into his downfall? Isn't Draigo trapped in unconquerable situation? Two great enemies of Chaos in uncertain peril and more to come... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2783899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Oh, it's much worse. You displease them too much and they can still turn you into spawn instead. Â Actually... can they? The whole point of striving to become a Daemon Prince is that the reward of Chaos is ultimately either Spawndom of Daemonhood, so Daemonhood is not necessarily reversible. This is because, unlike true Daemons, Daemon Princes are ultimately independent of their god, so are able to draw power from the Warp as a whole as well as from their god (otherwise there would be no Undivided Princes). This means a Daemon Prince who had his god's blessing taken away could still survive as a Daemon Prince, but with much weaker powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2784827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Not sure the 'earn you daemonhood, then go on your merry way' theory works either. While I'm inclined to agree that complete reversal is likely out of the question, I don't feel handing them this status is the be-all-and-end-all. Imo, to provide them with the immortality that they desire (while retaining a some form of mentality/physicality) requires the willingness of a god(s) to remain attached to their chosen champion and continually invest power in them. We've seen them desert champions before such as Horus so it's not like they never go back on the deals. As such, I don't think it's a far reach to suggest that if the gods, fickle as they are, could theoretically become fed-up with daemonic champions they will withdraw these favours and their energies to let the warp have it's way with them instead. Not that we'd hear much of these failures or that the dark gods would pick champions unwisely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231235-traitor-primarchs-and-daemons/#findComment-2785302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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