Space Wolves, Night Lords and World Eaters

[spu00sed]

The problem is that wolves have fallen to chaos. Individuals, packs, strike cruiser crews, possible even entire companies (the 13th stone contains more than just the wulfen and those companies that didn't agree with the great wolf lord).

 

I do however see the emperor had forseen and ordained the purpose of each of his leagions. Each had its part within the whole scheme.

 

Maybe the wolves were the executioners

 

And maybe Angron wasn't surpose to have brain implants*. Maybe when The Emperor got to Angron and saw what had been done to his son he realised that the World Eaters could never be the peace keepers he wants and just gakked off back to Terra, glas that he had a 95% success rate, just before having to wipe out two legions.

 

* The world eaters background suggests that the Eldar had a hand in Angrons history. Maybe, just maybe their interferance screwed up the EMperors plans. He hadn't planned on other future seers theying to get their own way.

[Hellios]

Leman Russ was a better individual by far than Magnus the Red, Konrad Curze or Angron. Sympath and understanding are not what he was remembered for, in the same way we don't remember Alexander the Great for drinking honey and raw eggs. It doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

I don't know... Angron may well be mentally ill and so not entirely responsible for his actions... Russ as far as I know has no such excuse.

 

Magnus sought knowledge and yes maybe he was arrogant and naive but I'm pretty sure arrogance can be said to be a trait of a number of primarchs and maybe the emperor. Oh and I'm sure it is easy to resist some of the most powerful beings in existence when they bend their wills to making you theirs, maybe Russ should consider himself lucky that he wasn't chosen by the dark gods.

 

Curze? What did he want? He wanted order... and he got order and when he was taken away the order went as well... could order have been put in place with love and kisses? I don't know! Would it have stayed when he went if he had done it that way? I don't know... I personally would rather live in a world of ruthless order than live in chaos under a friendly government. He also didn't have much support from the other primarchs and the primarch he did trust betrayed him (Curzes point of view) and his father and brothers also betrayed him when they sent assassins after him (again his point of view). Not to mention Curze might also suffer from mental illness.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Because you failed to start a new thread, the moderating team did it for you :)

 

On topic -

 

I always got the feeling that the Wolves were chosen becuase neither Angron nor Curze would do it.

 

The Wolves have a very strong sense of right and wrong, as Alecto pointed out. Sorcerory was wrong for them (despite the fact Rune priests were ok). Their brother was doing something they perceived as wrong, and when they got the backing from the rest of the Imperium, they shook their heads sadly and did what the believed needed to be done.

[Legatus]

Abnett did not claim that the Wolves were the physically fiercest, he did not claim that they were the fastest, he did not claim that they used terror tactics.

(...)

They weren't better than the World Eaters at chopping things to pieces messily in single minded rage. They weren't better than the Night Lords at terrorising populations.

What he did do was to insinuate that the Space Wolves were the most terrifying and fearsome of the Legions.

 

"Space Marines are inherently tough, but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. And it begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another Legion."

(Dan Abnett, Prospero Burns Trailer

 

"'I'd heard stories. We'd all heard stories.'

'What kind of stories?'

'That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes to perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made. Things that should have been stillborn or drowned in a sack.'

'Feral things?' asked Hawser.

'The worst of them all are the Space Wolves,' replied Korine."

("Prospero Burns", Dan Abnett)

 

Edit: I seem to have missed some majpr thread editing while I was typing...

[Scribe]

Chalk it up to in character ignorance. Unless I am forgetting something (and I wish I could forget much of that book) the WE and NL legions are not mentioned at all, despite the fact they have a history in the setting as being brutal/murderous/terrifying, and would serve as a pretty good comparison point to a 'loyal' savage legion.

 

Of all my HH books, its the one I wont be reading again because it doesnt even make an attempt at being an objective or balanced view, making any claims to come out of it meaningless.

[Morningstar317]

Sorry to point this out (and quote my english wife) but this thread is focused on comparing apples and oranges.

 

In both cases, the tactics of the Worldeaters and Night Lords were focused on the crusade and baseline humans. They were different tools to be used for the right job. The Space Wolves mentioned in the HH were not this, they are implied to be a contingency against other marines. Hence my point of apples and oranges!

[lothbrok]

i think you guys are looking at the wolves from the wrong side. Abnett never claimed they were blood thirsty berserks or terror mongering psychos or that they stepped on the toes of the other legions. what he did say was that the wolves would do anything to win. there was no line they would'nt cross and no order they would'nt follow if it came from high enough.

 

look at how Jarl Ogvai handled the campaign against the quietude he didnt just run in and kill everything like the world eaters would have, nor did he try and scare the crap out of them. he calming demanded theater command obeying all the rules and regulations then proceeded to win by hitting them hard enough that they would never get up again.

 

thats the key difference between wolves, world eaters, and night lords. the world eaters just kill becuase they want to, the night lords do horrific things becuase they feel its necessary for order, but the wolves kill becuase it needs to be done they employ enough force to make sure that nothing they fight will ever be a threat to the imperium again and while they love war and fighting they dont love killing with out a reason.

 

on a different note the bits about pretending to be feral savages, their not pretending. they really are feral savage and primitive. but the other legions see them as "savages" but in truth they are really a hugely disciplined force despite the shortcomings of their primitive nature. personally i think battle for the fang sums it up best when the great wolf says something along the lines of "when the enemy sees the wolves they think it will just be a howling charge, its only later that they notice their supply lines are cut, their communications disrupted, and their leaders are dead."

[Legatus]

Sorry to point this out (and quote my english wife) but this thread is focused on comparing apples and oranges.

 

In both cases, the tactics of the Worldeaters and Night Lords were focused on the crusade and baseline humans. They were different tools to be used for the right job. The Space Wolves mentioned in the HH were not this, they are implied to be a contingency against other marines. Hence my point of apples and oranges!

The Space Wolves were not intended to be used against other Marines. Abnetts line of reasoning (which you can see for yourself in the video I linked) was the the Space Wolves are ruthless, savages and brutal, and that the only reason why the Emperor would allow such a dangerous and untamed Legion to exist was to take down another Legion. Well, the World Eaters are twice as ruthless and untamed as the Space Wolves.

[Lord_Caerolion]

i think you guys are looking at the wolves from the wrong side. Abnett never claimed they were blood thirsty berserks or terror mongering psychos or that they stepped on the toes of the other legions. what he did say was that the wolves would do anything to win. there was no line they would'nt cross and no order they would'nt follow if it came from high enough.

 

Ok then, where's the line of what the Night Lords or World Eaters wouldn't do, but the Wolves would? The entire point of Night Haunter's backstory is that he became the monster he is so that the Emperor would have someone who could do these things, to bring order where only a monster could. Once again, it cheapens Night Haunters character if he essentially sacrifices himself to do these things, and then Russ comes along and, aside from Magnus, is usually seen as a good Primarch by his brothers, whereas Konrad is an abomination that should be put down. Seriously, where is this line? The Night Lords nuked entire planets for containing a minor heretical cult. They led full-scale purges against the temples of peaceful, yet non-compliant, agricultural deities. What is it that the Night Lords wouldn't do, that the Wolves have?

 

thats the key difference between wolves, world eaters, and night lords. the world eaters just kill becuase they want to, the night lords do horrific things becuase they feel its necessary for order, but the wolves kill becuase it needs to be done they employ enough force to make sure that nothing they fight will ever be a threat to the imperium again and while they love war and fighting they dont love killing with out a reason.

 

on a different note the bits about pretending to be feral savages, their not pretending. they really are feral savage and primitive. but the other legions see them as "savages" but in truth they are really a hugely disciplined force despite the shortcomings of their primitive nature. personally i think battle for the fang sums it up best when the great wolf says something along the lines of "when the enemy sees the wolves they think it will just be a howling charge, its only later that they notice their supply lines are cut, their communications disrupted, and their leaders are dead."

 

You do realise you just exactly described the Night Lords methodology, don't you? "By utterly crushing the transgressor in full view of his compatriots, an enforcer not only solves the original problem beyond all doubt but ensures that those who observe it dare not stray from the path of Imperial law. Ultimately, the actual physical presence of the enforcer is not necessary to enforce the law. This was the belief underpinning Night Haunter's political and military tactics from the beginning". "Night Haunter moulded his sons into an efficient, humourless force of warriors to whom killing was second nature, achieving their goals by any means necessary."

 

The Night Lords were an incredibly efficient Legion, albeit with a love of overkill. It was only after Curze went rogue that they began attacking innocent populations (the IA article only mentions an increase in attacking defenseless populations beforehand, implying they were still deviant). Night Haunter has been repeatedly described as taking no joy in what he did, seeing it as a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless.

 

The biggest flaw in Abnetts reasoning is that if the Wolves are only allowed to exist because they're the Emperors Executioners, then what exactly allows the World Eaters and Night Lords to survive? Remember, the Emperor had no problem with the NL until after Dorn got beaten up, so what exactly allowed them to live? The role of Executioner was already taken, so it can't be that.

Plus, the excuse of "well, maybe Abnett was just ignorant of what the NL and WE were like" doesn't add up, considering that he also wrote a book about how terrified Dorn was of Night Haunter. The part that worries me is that every aspect of a HH book needs to be ok'd and discussed by the other writers and Merret. I'm just going to keep telling myself they didn't know how far he'd take it, or that he'd push it that hard, like the "make it look like Loken dies, but leave an opening to bring him back later." "Ok, I'll half kill him in a duel, drop a building on him, and have him sit through an orbital bombardment which kills all his friends!" incident, with Abnett going "Ok, I'll have the Wolves big themselves up, telling everyone they're the worst of the worst, but it's mostly trash-talk", and then we get the fanboying in the book.

 

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

[Scribe]

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

 

Help us ADB, you're our only hope.

[Billuriye]

No writer should be responsible from cleaning others' mess. You guys are too demanding.

[Yogi]

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

 

Help us ADB, you're our only hope.

 

 

 

ADB won't fanboy the WE. They won't be the deadly most savage legion ever, only tolerated because they have been given some never before mentioned role. Angron won't be the Primarch everyone's afraid of and no one could possibly beat, because that's stupid and boring. Like Prospero Burns.

 

He'll make the WE savage, gladiator, space marines struggling with their implants and rage. Yet still have relate-able an interesting characters.

 

 

But at the same time if he did fanboy them (he won't) I would laugh, because it would put SW in their place.

[Scribe]

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

 

Help us ADB, you're our only hope.

 

ADB won't fanboy the WE. They won't be the deadly most savage legion ever, only tolerated because they have been given some never before mentioned role. Angron won't be the Primarch everyone's afraid of and no one could possibly beat, because that's stupid and boring. Like Prospero Burns.

 

He'll make the WE savage, gladiator, space marines struggling with their implants and rage. Yet still have relate-able an interesting characters.

 

But at the same time if he did fanboy them (he won't) I would laugh, because it would put SW in their place.

 

I would hope that he wouldnt, and given his past works and comments on the various forums I have faith he wouldnt. What I want, is some level of coherency with what we 'know' of the various legions, and what is written about them. Prospero Burns, was seriously the most disappointing book I have read, in my life, as it made ZERO effort in reconciling what we the reader took as previous knowledge, with what it was trying to tell us. I mean its emo, and 'slap in the face' over the top, but honestly how is that book not seen as simply insulting to the community and fans of the setting?

 

Its great that Mr. Abnett tried to write a story in a unique way. Its great he added culture, and attitude to the SW image other then the obvious stereotypes, but to go over the top as he did, its well, Mat Ward-esque, and the scars run deep I am afraid, its been how long and I still bitch about it? :cuss

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Do keep in mind that very little of this mythology was ever written with the intention that it make sense. Dan Abnett said so himself; he hates Space Wolves, the idea that a bunch of space colonists settled Fenris and devolved to acting just like vikings is as preposterous as the idea that ten thousand murderers and rapists (who were all children when they committed their crimes, I might add) could ever hold themselves together long enough as a military unit to so much as board a spaceship.

 

The World Eaters deserve special mention, though, because their fluff is the most ridiculous yet.

 

Malcador: Sir, we found the Primarch for VII Legion.

 

Emperor: Good, dispatch the Legion immediately, and make ready my battle barge, I wish to confront him personally.

 

Malcador: There's a problem, sir. He's a barely lucid lunatic with a chip in his head that makes him lose his mind and attack everything nearby. There is every indication that he will murder most of the legion and likely any civilian he comes across.

 

Emperor: How did they cut a hole in his head? He's a primarch, bolt rounds bounce off of his skull.

 

Malcador: They probably used a lascannon as a scalpel. Certainly, a large part of his brain has been removed. Effectively, he's been lobotomized.

 

Emperor: Perfect. Give him ten thousand gene-forged killing machines, control of 18 Imperial Army divisions and a fleet of planet-murdering warships. I'm sure nothing can go wrong here.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that these authors have been given beef jerky and told to make filet mignon out of it. We should cut them some slack.

[Hfran Morkai]

A lot of the hype about the Space Wolves appears to be drummed up by themselves, which would make sense considering they'd want to inspire fear into their foes. I think thats an important thing to remember, they play themselves as simple but destructive savages when there actually is intelligenge there.

 

"The Wolves were barbaric but not barbarians"

 

That is a true strength as many foes would underestimate their combat prowess and likely make mistakes.

 

Also, Space Wolves do not back down from a fight, given the chance of escaping in saviour pods or using them as munition even the Fenrisian humans will choose to use them as weapons.

[Walter Payton]

Leman Russ was a better individual by far than Magnus the Red, Konrad Curze or Angron. Sympath and understanding are not what he was remembered for, in the same way we don't remember Alexander the Great for drinking honey and raw eggs. It doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

I don't know... Angron may well be mentally ill and so not entirely responsible for his actions... Russ as far as I know has no such excuse.

 

The difference is Russ doesn't need an excuse.

 

Magnus sought knowledge and yes maybe he was arrogant and naive but I'm pretty sure arrogance can be said to be a trait of a number of primarchs and maybe the emperor.

 

Why is that relevant? It doesn't excuse Magnus. At best, it makes him as bad as the others. I personally believe he was even worse:

 

The difference is that their arrogance has less to no effect. Leman Russ's arrogance didn't rip a hole in space and time, prevent human access to the Webway, bind the Emperor to the Golden Throne for eternity and nearly cause Terra to become a daemon world. The motivation of Magnus in weaving that spell was to vindicate his own sorceror's ways. His self-justification led to calamity on an epic scale.

 

Oh and I'm sure it is easy to resist some of the most powerful beings in existence when they bend their wills to making you theirs, maybe Russ should consider himself lucky that he wasn't chosen by the dark gods.

 

1. Why did the Dark Gods choose Magnus to corrupt and not Russ in the first place?

 

2. Every primarch was tempted by Chaos. Horus, Magnus et al failed that test.

 

I don't know... I personally would rather live in a world of ruthless order than live in chaos under a friendly government.

 

That's a false dilemma. There was never friendly government on Nostramo, the ones before Curze were corrupt and incompetent. Curze's tragedy is that he was left to his own devices and became utterly ruthless. His view of society was wrong. Curze failed to realize that rule through fear is artificial order. The logical progression of ruthless control is a chaotic break-down if the authority fails. That's what happened when he left. Would you have liked to live on Nostramo during the time when Konrad was away? He destroyed his own homeworld. Doing that was an admission of failure in itself.

 

Ruling brutally suppresses evil. Ruling justly erodes it.

 

He also didn't have much support from the other primarchs and the primarch he did trust betrayed him (Curzes point of view)

 

1. Curze and his legion are sclf-deluding sociopaths. No reliance can be placed on them as a source and their point of view does not justify them.

 

2. Curze deserved censure for his atrocities.

 

and his father and brothers also betrayed him when they sent assassins after him (again his point of view).

 

The only assassins we know of are the group of Callidus assassins sent after him post-Heresy, of which M'Shen was one. After he betrayed the Imperium and his brothers. The only source we have for ones before that is Zso Sahaal, who is hugely unreliable.

[Billuriye]

Every primarch was tempted by Chaos.

 

That's not true at all.

[A D-B]

There's a lot to chew on in this thread, regarding the Space Wolves, World Eaters, Night Lords, and their roles.

 

I mean, it's obviously something I've thought about a lot, and it's something me and Dan have discussed before. But still, there's musing to be done.

 

EDIT: Fixed quote.

[Walter Payton]

Every primarch was tempted by Chaos.

 

That's not true at all.

 

Codex Chaos 2nd Edition and Codex Chaos Space Marines 5th Edition would disagree with you there.

[Legatus]

Every primarch was tempted by Chaos.

That's not true at all.

Perhaps "tested" would be the better way to put it.

 

"No single Primarch was wholly resistant to such temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them would eventually fail that test."

5th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 12.

 

And before anyone accuses Gav of screwing up all the fluff again, here is the same passage from a 2nd Edition Codex:

 

"No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8.

[Walter Payton]

Every primarch was tempted by Chaos.

That's not true at all.

Perhaps "tested" would be the better way to put it.

 

"No single Primarch was wholly resistant to such temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them would eventually fail that test."

5th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 12.

 

And before anyone accuses Gav of screwing up all the fluff again, here is the same passage from a 2nd Edition Codex:

 

"No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8.

 

What he said.

[Billuriye]

Touché, i guess.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well, according to LotN, the Emperor did sanction the Night Lords. The problem is also the fact that Curze and Angron were ostracised for what they did, yet Russ is praised for doing the exact same thing. Dorn hates Curze for his terror tactics, yet is completely fine with Russ, who's doing the same thing?

I know I keep complaining about this, but I just feel it steps on the toes of the Night Lords and World Eaters if we have the Space Wolves come along and go "oh yeah, we do everything they're both infamous for, but with none of the downsides, and we do it better!" It cheapens the tragedy of Curze if he sacrificed everything to become what the Imperium needed, yet Russ waltzes in and gets the same end effect, without becoming an inhuman monster in the process.

 

The Wolves just read a little too much like Mary Sues in the book. They have no downsides. The one downside they do apparently have, their superstition and primitiveness, we learn is actually just a charade to distract others from just how much of a Mary Sue the Legion is. They're just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as the World Eaters, doing everything they do and more, but are perfectly in control of themselves, and they're just as terrifying as the Night Lords, but their brother Legions still love them, and noone ostracizes them (well, except Magnus).

To put it another way, the World Eaters are now the Legion that's only good at doing half of what the Space Wolves do, and they do it worse. I also dislike the idea that one, and only one, Legion was created with a set role in mind. Every other Legion gravitated towards roles their Primarch was most suited to. The Iron Warriors weren't created to be a siege force, they took the role as Perturabo demonstrated a great talent in the area. The Death Guard weren't created to be an anvil. The Alpha Legion weren't created to be insurrectionists. The Raven Guard weren't created to be guerilla-warfare experts. The Thousand Sons weren't created to be psychic. Yet for some reason, the Wolves were created specifically to be Executioners? Out of every Primarch, only one got told "Yeah, you're now in command of a Legion, but you're going to specialise in this particular area"?

 

I with you, Lord_Caerolion. I like Wolves. They are my second favourite Chapter [not Legion; WE, TS and IW have my heart, when they were still goodies]. Reading Prospero Burns, I was very excited at Wolves growing up and into GrimDark^TMland. I was also somewhat dismayed at them becoming the "Uber Legion" and I felt that they really stepped on the toes of Angron and his World Eaters.

 

I am not one to go off on a fluff-rant based on a book, very often :P , and know that we only get 'instalments' from BL due to the time it takes to write these novels. But I am wary of the Wolves new found "Uberosity" which perhaps comes at the expense of WE and NL.

 

I do feel Wolves already get special treatment from GW, and it is little wonder that they are the most popular Chapter with such kindness from their creator. But that is for another thread.

 

Heh, since Abnett is writing about the Battle for Calth next, I wonder what he will say about the Ultramarines?

 

Dan Abnett (prior to Prospero Burns): "The question is, why would the Emperor allow such a brutal and terrifying Legion to exist? The answer is obviously, to take down another Legion."

 

World Eaters player: "Uh, what?"

 

 

Dan Abnett (prior to Battle for Calth): "The question is, why would the Emperor allow such a large Legion to exist? The answer is obviously, to act as his personal strategic reserve and his praetorians."

 

Imperial Fists player: "Uh, what?"

 

M2C is already spitting chainswords at Guilliman's new found "cowardice" :)

I wouldn't let him see what you wrote, he'll go off the deep end :P

 

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

 

Help us ADB, you're our only hope.

 

*Imagines Scribe of Khorne as a holographic image, with big hair buns wrapped around his Khorne bunny ears*.....

:)

 

No writer should be responsible from cleaning others' mess. You guys are too demanding.

 

A D-B isn't responsible for cleaning the mess. But he gets to do it, because, deep down, in that StarTrek hating, latté sipping heart of his, he loves us. He loves us like a cat loves his subject and his subject's lap. So warm and soft, and provides cheeseburgers and warm fuzzies. Well, we don't get to pat/stroke A D-B with ours hands, but with our kind words, and so he loves us ლ(╹◡╹ლ)

:lol:

[Walter Payton]

It cheapens the tragedy of Curze if he sacrificed everything to become what the Imperium needed, yet Russ waltzes in and gets the same end effect, without becoming an inhuman monster in the process.

 

I always thought the tragedy of Curze was that he was not what the Imperium needed. He tried to be, gave everything, even his soul, but he failed.

 

Dan Abnett (prior to Battle for Calth): "The question is, why would the Emperor allow such a large Legion to exist? The answer is obviously, to act as his personal strategic reserve and his praetorians."

 

Imperial Fists player: "Uh, what?"

 

M2C is already spitting chainswords at Guilliman's new found "cowardice" :)

I wouldn't let him see what you wrote, he'll go off the deep end :P

 

:)

 

My only hope is that we get an actual Night Lords and/or World Eaters book soon, so we can set things right again.

 

Help us ADB, you're our only hope.

 

*Imagines Scribe of Khorne as a holographic image, with big hair buns wrapped around his Khorne bunny ears*.....

:lol:

 

+10

 

I have loved every WE character in the series so far.

[Brannick]

Do we not need to see the NL and WE own HH books before we can make better assessments? There are still a lot of gaps in the plots that are often filled in as the series continues. Perhaps the authors will give us different positions on the NL and/or WE that will make us think 'oh, so that's why Abnett said that about the Wolves.'