Space Wolves, Night Lords and World Eaters

[bjornsval]

Seems like many really are missing why the WE and NL's are not Big E's executioners. Both legions lack control. Just being the most brutal or scariest isnt going to do it. Both of these legions have a tendancie to lose control. If Big E wanted someone to go to a planet and murder everything in sight he would use the WE's. Go scare a planet into submission NL's. All Abnett wrote was that the Emperor used Russ and his wolves for missions that required precision. You dont use a sledgehammer when all you need is a scalpel. Also lets add in that maybe when the 2 missing legions went lost or were sanctioned. That neither the WE's or NL's were found or involved . So if Russ ahd been involved in sanctioning a legion. It would be possible the The Emperor was impressed with how it was done and just figured it was a job for Russ.

[Legatus]

All Abnett wrote was that the Emperor used Russ and his wolves for missions that required precision.

What he actually said was that the conclusion that the Space Wolves were the Emperor's Executioners was based on them being just so damn ruthless, savage and untamed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Seems like many really are missing why the WE and NL's are not Big E's executioners. Both legions lack control. Just being the most brutal or scariest isnt going to do it. Both of these legions have a tendancie to lose control. If Big E wanted someone to go to a planet and murder everything in sight he would use the WE's. Go scare a planet into submission NL's. All Abnett wrote was that the Emperor used Russ and his wolves for missions that required precision. You dont use a sledgehammer when all you need is a scalpel. Also lets add in that maybe when the 2 missing legions went lost or were sanctioned. That neither the WE's or NL's were found or involved . So if Russ ahd been involved in sanctioning a legion. It would be possible the The Emperor was impressed with how it was done and just figured it was a job for Russ.

 

Except once again, the Night Lords were highly efficient, until the point at which the Night Haunter got pushed too far, and snapped. Every quote states that they did nothing that wouldn't be called into account, and apparently anything the Night Lords did, the Wolves have done worse.

Secondly, we don't know that the WE and NL weren't involved in the destruction of any missing Legions. Hell, we technically aren't even sure the Wolves were. Alls we know is that Russ states that Prospero isn't the first time Marine fought Marine, nothing more.

 

@Brannick, we can't have the NL or the WE have a change in direction, as what would need to be changed is essentially the entire character of the Legions. It's the equivalent of going "well, the Blood Angels codex gave them lots of Librarians (the Dreadnoughts), which they haven't been known for in the past, and it kinda steps on the toes of the Thousand Sons legion. To get around it, let's change the Thousand Sons away from having lots of psykers!

Yes, I know it's a bad example, but you get my point. The World Eaters and Night Lords shouldn't be changed because someone decided to make another Legion known for both of their specialties. What should be done is to change the Wolves back to what they were before. There was no reason for the change, it doesn't answer questions that needed answering, all it does is create confusion and create more questions that now need answering. That is the definition of a bad retcon.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Lots being passed around here....Not sure how much pertains to the subject title question.

 

I think the SW's were the best for the job fort he following reasons:

 

1. They were utterly loyal and would not waver when ordered to eliminate something from existence(What if they just outright refused to execute an order..well maybe not Angron. :wink: , And I could see Curze just refusing to do it.

2. The hatred wolves have for psychic abilities which "go to far", or Malificarum

3. The use of Runes which are an anathema to powers beyond Fenrisian psychic science, or which are considered Malificarum(This is shown more in "Battle of The Fang")

 

 

Now I am surprised the Death Guard and WE's were not also allowed to be there. Especially the DG since there does not seem to be any misgivings the Emperor may have had with them. (none that I've read). They were also very opposed to Magnus. Perhaps the Emp. thought the wolves, sisters of silence and custodes were all that was required.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Wait what? You can see the Night Haunter refusing to attack a target? The guy who gave everything to be what the Emperor required? The guy who spent his entire life trying to become worse than what he had to fight, so they wouldn't want to fight him? You see him as not wanting to attack another Primarch?

 

Curze made himself into a monster, doing absolutely whatever was necessary to get the job done. That's not the sort of guy who's going to say "no, I'm not doing that."

[lothbrok]

i think the big thing to remember here is that the PB was written from the perspective of human. a human who has never had anyother experience with other legions so naturally his opinion of who the uber-marines were i warped by bias and ignorance. there is also that scene when the wolves are attacking prosperro that they allmost lose due to sorcercy and the silent sisters have to pull their fat from the fryer so to speak.

 

on a different note the worldeaters might well cross every line the wolves would but the difference is the wolves knew what they were doing. everytime they crossed a lin it was a thought out decission on there part and not the product of wanting to kill anything with a pulse like the world eaters. also the wolves never engaged in terror tactics like the night lords they didnt project the screams of dying women and children planet wide like the NL are describe as doing in soul hunter/blood reaver but just destroyed the planets culture and military bases ruthlessly. the wolves never enjoyed killing or torture just fighting.

[Legatus]

You see him as not wanting to attack another Primarch?

Well, there was the whole thing about his life long nightmare visions about brothers fighting brothers. He may have refused to attack another Legion based on that account.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I agree with Lothbrok. When the SW landed on Prospero, they fought a few human auxilia, one titan and a thousand space marines. Just a thousand. An augmented Legion versus an augmented Chapter--and they almost lost.

 

Also, Russ is not even remotely tame or orderly about the destruction of Tizca. He treats it like any other planetary invasion, except Dan Abnett makes it a point to display how awesomely they hack apart every child, adult, dog and cat they encounter. Never mind the auxilia there are loyal and just acting under orders and have no stake in coming war. Russ didn't even attempt to take prisoners or spare civilians, nor did the 'noble' Custodes, nor did the Sisters of Silence.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that the Emperor chose the Space Wolves because they had pushed so hard for censure to begin with as sort of a just desserts kind of thing.

 

Russ: He's a warp-wise pansy. Spank him!

 

Emperor: You have psykers, Russ.

 

Russ: Absolutely not, I have Skjalds who travel the mind-sea and channel the power of Fenris like a good Gothi should.

 

Emperor: Sigh. Fine, whatever. If you really want Magnus taught a lesson, you may now go and collect him. He tried to use psychic powers to warn me of Horus' impending betrayal. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

 

Russ: No. What do you take me for, realistic? I'm a product of mythology! You do understand that invading a Legion homeworld would bleed my Legion dearly, right?

 

Emperor: Yes. You pushed for it, now you get to do the hard part.

[Gree]

I agree with Lothbrok. When the SW landed on Prospero, they fought a few human auxilia, one titan and a thousand space marines. Just a thousand. An augmented Legion versus an augmented Chapter--and they almost lost.

 

Actually it was almost ten thousand Astartes. A Thousand Sons makes it clear that roughly a thousand Astartes survived the Wolves attack after the bloodshed.

[lothbrok]

well while russ might have wanted magnus censured it was'nt becuase he hated magnus it was becuase he was genuinely worried about magnus crossing a line a breaking something that couldnt be fixed. which actually happened and was why the emperor told Russ to bring magnus in for "questioning" it was ultimately Horus who gave the kill order.

[Pope]

After reading through the arguments, and such, I think it's been touched on, but not really pointed out, that this book wasn't written as fact. PB was written from Hawser's perspective, and what he saw, and he heard from the other soldiers. Were the WE more untamed? Yes. NL crazy as all get out? I don't think it's being disputed. Did Hawser spend years and years with them? No. Big E chose the SW to do a job for his own reasons, do you think he came down from on high and told Russ, "These are the reasons I chose you." No. Hawser tells us what he saw, heard, smelled, tasted, etc. If someone gives you a job to do, but don't tell you why, you're going to assume its because you're best suited for the job, right? Otherwise, they would've asked someone else to do it. Really, all I wanted everyone to keep in mind, PB isn't from the Emperor's perspective, Russ's perspective, or even a SW's perspective. It's a story told by a human, who, as we read, filled in parts of the stories and tales to make them more interesting, or because pieces were missing, he even admits at several points during the novel that he would have to do such a thing when telling the tales of the fallen wolves. That's what I got out of it at least.. PB was another one of his tales, based in fact, that may have been embellished, or changed slightly everytime he told it.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I agree with Lothbrok. When the SW landed on Prospero, they fought a few human auxilia, one titan and a thousand space marines. Just a thousand. An augmented Legion versus an augmented Chapter--and they almost lost.

 

Also, Russ is not even remotely tame or orderly about the destruction of Tizca. He treats it like any other planetary invasion, except Dan Abnett makes it a point to display how awesomely they hack apart every child, adult, dog and cat they encounter. Never mind the auxilia there are loyal and just acting under orders and have no stake in coming war. Russ didn't even attempt to take prisoners or spare civilians, nor did the 'noble' Custodes, nor did the Sisters of Silence.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that the Emperor chose the Space Wolves because they had pushed so hard for censure to begin with as sort of a just desserts kind of thing.

 

Russ: He's a warp-wise pansy. Spank him!

 

Emperor: You have psykers, Russ.

 

Russ: Absolutely not, I have Skjalds who travel the mind-sea and channel the power of Fenris like a good Gothi should.

 

Emperor: Sigh. Fine, whatever. If you really want Magnus taught a lesson, you may now go and collect him. He tried to use psychic powers to warn me of Horus' impending betrayal. You wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

 

Russ: No. What do you take me for, realistic? I'm a product of mythology! You do understand that invading a Legion homeworld would bleed my Legion dearly, right?

 

Emperor: Yes. You pushed for it, now you get to do the hard part.

 

I don't understand your point.

[Perrin]

Answering the topic question now, not above posts.

 

It says in Prospero Burns that the Wolves and Russ were bred to be the Emperors Executioners, everyone knows that. The Wolves are apparently fake/controlled savages that just play the part. I think this has been misunderstood by readers. Looking at the people of Fenris, they are savages. Elevation to the ranks of the Legion wouldnt have changed their base instincts. I think that the Wolves were the perfect savages because of the world Russ was found on, but the geneseed gave them savage, wolflike characteristics anyway.

Now, the World Eaters couldn't have been the Emperors Executioners because they weren't made for it. If the Emperor actually planned to have a fail-safe Legion then he would have had to give them and their Primarch suitable characteristics when he was designing their geneseed. The World Eaters weren't bloodthirsty savages until they found Angron and had their brain implants. We see in a short story in Tales of Heresy that before Angron the World Eaters/War Hounds are a noble chapter, a bit like the Fists imo. If you imagine the World Eaters and Angron like the ones in the Dornian Heresy on this site then thats what they would have been like without the implants.. So they wouldn't have been the right guys for the job.

 

The only argument i have agaisnt the Night Lords however is whether their nature is because of the world that their primarch and Legion grew up on, or if it is programmed into their geneseed like the Wolves. I think that the Night Lords and KC were made to be the bringers of fear, regardless of the type of planet they matured on. So really i have no argument agaisnt the Night Lords except that marines know no fear so the Night Lords signature tactics would be almost useless.

[lothbrok]

well actually answering the topic. the world eaters could never be the executioners becuase as stated beforehand they werent made for it. they were made to be the shock troops, the ones who broke the enemy lines quickly not the final sanction. they were supposed to just break open the enemy so they could be easily subjugated not like the wolves who were supposed to leave nothing behind.

[Scribe]

We see in a short story in Tales of Heresy that before Angron the World Eaters/War Hounds are a noble chapter, a bit like the Fists imo. If you imagine the World Eaters and Angron like the ones in the Dornian Heresy on this site then thats what they would have been like without the implants.. So they wouldn't have been the right guys for the job.

 

Not so.

 

"For all that the War Hounds were a hot-blooded Legion, Khârn found his thoughts flat and colourless. He took a moment to wonder if this was how others felt, the enemies who had advanced to their doom under the War Hound chainaxes, or the condemned men of the auxilia in the days before the Emperor had banned the Legion from decimating allies who disgraced them on the field." - After Desh'ea

[Perrin]

We see in a short story in Tales of Heresy that before Angron the World Eaters/War Hounds are a noble chapter, a bit like the Fists imo. If you imagine the World Eaters and Angron like the ones in the Dornian Heresy on this site then thats what they would have been like without the implants.. So they wouldn't have been the right guys for the job.

 

Not so.

 

"For all that the War Hounds were a hot-blooded Legion, Khârn found his thoughts flat and colourless. He took a moment to wonder if this was how others felt, the enemies who had advanced to their doom under the War Hound chainaxes, or the condemned men of the auxilia in the days before the Emperor had banned the Legion from decimating allies who disgraced them on the field." - After Desh'ea

 

Still nothing like the World Eaters though. Sure they are described as a "hot-blooded Legion", so maybe they were quicker to temper than other marines but not to the extent of the World Eaters with brain implants.

Soldiers in Roman Legions would sometimes be executed for failing in battle. If a whole unit ran from battle or deserted then every 10th man would be beaten to death by his comrades. Yet the Roman Legions were the most disciplined and successful armed force of that era. That sounds pretty much the same as the War Hounds killing allies who had disgraced them on the battle fields.

[blamb]

You can see the Night Haunter refusing to attack a target?

you mean like him refusing to attack M'Shen?

[Scribe]

You can see the Night Haunter refusing to attack a target?

you mean like him refusing to attack M'Shen?

 

Not exactly the same thing now is it? One (attacking some target world/legion/whatever) is within normal operational parameters, the other (getting killed) was allowing him in his mind to prove his point in the most dedicated way possible.

[Walter Payton]

You can see the Night Haunter refusing to attack a target?

you mean like him refusing to attack M'Shen?

 

Not exactly the same thing now is it? One (attacking some target world/legion/whatever) is within normal operational parameters, the other (getting killed) was allowing him in his mind to prove his point in the most dedicated way possible.

 

One thing that could be the case (I admit I don't know much SW fluff, so I'm spearing in the dark here) is that the Emperor designed the Space Wolves to be his executioners and to be brutal, whilst the Night Lords and World Eaters became brutal killers later on.

 

Does the whole Canis Helix thing predate Russ to any degree?

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem with that though is that it implies that one, and only one, Legion was created with a specific purpose in mind. Out of all the Legions, 17 gravitated to what task they and their Primarch suited best, but for some reason, when the Emperor found Russ, he said "by the way, you're going to kill some of your brothers. I don't care if you don't want to, you're my Executioner, case closed"? It makes no sense. If the Emperor were able to pre-dispose certain Primarchs to certain jobs, what the hell happened with Lorgar? He certainly wasn't made by the Emperor to be like how he ended up.

 

No, Russ being pre-made to be the Executioner simply makes no sense given everything we know about every other Legion/Primarch. Corax wasn't made to be a commando. Guilliman wasn't made to be a logistician. Fulgrim wasn't made to be a perfectionist. Each Legion moved into specialising in what they did best at. For some reason, the Wolves like to believe they were picked by the Emperor for a specific role that others should do better.

[DV8]

I think a large part of this "debate" (if we can really call it that; lets be honest most of the arguments in this thread, from both sides, basically devolve to fanboi-ism and "my daddy can beat up your daddy"/"my stick is bigger than your stick" mentality) is a result of a misconception of contrasting what the Primarchs were created for, versus what they would eventually become as products of their environment (a strong nurture vs nature theme).

 

A large part will realistically boil down to how powerful you believe the Emperor's powers really are. Was he powerful enough to see the future? Did he know beforehand that the Primarchs would be scattered and raised in entirely hostile environments, to be shaped and nurtured by the worlds they would come to call home? If he did, why was he not powerful enough to foresee the Heresy? Even worse, what if he did, and planned everything in anticipation of the Heresy?

 

However, if he did not, then one has to assume that he would have made the Primarchs with a specific goal or purpose in mind (the uniqueness of the Primarchs and the differences in their gene-seed seems to suggest so), even before they were scattered by Chaos. The Emperor would have crafted and designed each Primarch, perhaps not necessarily with a "goal", but a vision, one that sees each Primarch gifted with individual abilities and powers that sets themselves apart from their brethren; no one Primarch is alike to another, and though they share similarities, they are their own unique individuals, down to the genetic make-up. What does link them together, however, is a sharp and brilliant intellect; that ability to master any and almost all craft they set themselves to, that ability to adapt to their environments.

 

And what of Chaos' hand in this? The Horus Heresy novels have already dabbled with the concept that it is possible for some of the "players" in the galaxy to foresee the future, far enough to predict the Horus Heresy and its outcomes. In fact, it reaches a point where the Heresy is all but assured, with the only unknown being the outcome. If we accept the notion that it is possible to know, and thus influence the future, from a mortal perspective, can we not also accept that the Chaos gods are capable of such feats as well (most notably Tzeentch). Is it possible that the very act of scattering the Primarchs to different homeworlds as part of the very beginning of the Horus Heresy; a planting of the seeds, if you will. There is no doubt that the homeworlds which they were raised in, and the cultures and environment in which they lived, had a direct and lasting impact on the Primarchs that shaped them to become the saviors and monsters they are today.

 

It is a curious thing to note that within the Primarchs (and their respective Legions), there are subtle differences that set them apart, even without having been linked to their Primarch.

 

The Space Wolves have the Canis Helix, the wolf-bitten curse. There was no tampering with the gene-seed (that we know of) once Leman Russ was given his Legion, so we have to assume that the Canis Helix is part of Leman Russ' genetic code (and thus unique to his Legion). It is the reason no other Legion has the possibility of devolving into were-wolf monsters, and why the Space Wolves have some manner of latent anti-psychic abilities without necessarily being trained psykers (this is alluded to in A Thousand Sons when the Wolves sack Prospero; the very presence of so many Space Wolves seems to have a mitigating effect on the power of the Thousand Sons).

 

Similarly, the Thousand Sons inherited the psychic gene-seed of Magnus; however without his help (and his pact(s)) they were unable to control it and thus led to the mutations that almost destroyed their Legion. It is also interesting that Magnus, the most powerful psyker Primarch, just happens to land on Prospero, a planet filled with psykers and the perfect recruiting ground for his psychic Legion.

 

As well, we know that Sanguinius is a powerful psyker in his own rite, at the very least capable of seeing the future. I posit that some form of latent temporal psychic potential lies within the Blood Angels gene-seed, and that the death of Sanguinius sends a powerful psychic shock through his geneseed; the emotional/spiritual feedback of which is still felt today (and why the Red Thirst/Black Rage exists).

 

Of the 18 (or 20, if you count the two destroyed Legions) Primarchs and their Legions, we know ultimately that Magnus was destined (in the Emperor's mind) to sit on the Golden Throne and power the human webway; it would require a powerful psyker to do so (and why Malcador had to take the Emperor's place temporarily during the Siege of Terra) and explains greatly why Magnus was designed as such a powerful psyker. Can we not then also assume that there was a purpose in Leman Russ being created with the Canis Helix, and a seemingly natural resistance to psychic powers?

 

You are correct, Lord_Caerolion, in that every Legion gravitated towards the thing their Primarch was good at; this was a result of the world on which their Primarch was raised, and as a result many of the Legions (particularly as more and more recruits were drawn from their respective homeworlds) would begin to exhibit the same mannerisms and characteristics as their gene-sire. It makes sense, of course, no? A Primarch's personality is shaped by the world he is raised on - the culture and the peoples. Thus their Legion (as they draw more and more recruits from that world) will reflect more and more of the Primarch because that same culture and that same people is being brought into and spread throughout, until eventually it permeates the Legion.

 

Thus the Legions aren't necessarily just a product of the Primarch, but of their own homeworld.

 

To the question at hand then, why the Space Wolves as "the executioners", you have to take into account several considerations.

 

First and foremost is that this perspective is one taken from an internal perspective; the Space Wolves see themselves as the executioners, but not just of other Legions (at this point this kind of eventuality isn't a commonplace event, nor is it one that is happily or easily dwelt upon). The Space Wolves, from an internal perspective, are very focused, very single-minded; they are set upon a task and they will see it through to the end. However, there is control there, restraint; a respect for the balance of authority and the hierarchy of power around them. The Space Wolves are controlled and must be unleashed; they are a focused weapon that must be wielded with finesse and set upon a particular goal. They will achieve that goal and do the maximum amount damage necessary to ensure the goal is complete, but no more.

 

This touches on the second point: the idea of control, and this ties back into where each of the Legions are a product of not just their Primarch, but their homeworld. Angron and his World Eaters all have implants that drive them into a berserker rage. Curze and his Night Lords recruit from a homeworld that is filled with criminals, murders, rapists; these are men that are not honor-bound by law, and their dubious personalities are further enhanced and modified by the geneseed and training given to them. Both of these Legions are arguably more aggressive (and in that aggression far stronger) than the Space Wolves, but it doesn't necessarily make them more powerful. The World Eaters will most likely destroy their target, as well as everything within the general radius, and everything along the way to get to that objective; as the Night Lords recruit more and more from Nostramo (and as the planet continues to stoop deeper and deeper into evil and depravity), the Legion itself becomes more and more depraved, more and more "evil". As the Legion descends more into madness it becomes harder and harder to rely on them as a consistent tool and weapon to wield.

 

Were all the Primarchs and their Legions effective killers? Absolutely. In a straight-up fist-smash, Angron would probably bend Russ over and have his way with him, and similarly the World Eaters would probably curb-stomp the Space Wolves. But just because Angron and his Legion are more effective killers does not make them better "executioners" (in the sense of the role, whatever it might have been). The very fact that Leman Russ and his Space Wolves had far greater control, and were far harder to predict (especially because every one else viewed them as barbaric savages) would set them apart and make them far more effective.

 

I don't know if that rant makes any sense, and honestly after having spent two hours typing and re-typing, I'm not certain I've really answered the question satisfactorily (for this thread, or for myself). But take the above as you will.

 

 

DV8

[Ubermensch Commander]

It must be remembered that just because the Space Wolves viewed themselves as the Emperor's executioners does not make it so.

In the same vein that just because the Word Bearer's believed that they doing the Emperor's will or that the Ultramarines absorbed the lost legions does not make it so.

They may consider themselves this, but it does not make it so.

Paraphrasing from A-D-B. Thank you, A-D-B.

 

In addition, we have accounts in The First Heretic and other HH books that it was not just the Wolves that destroyed the Lost Legions, but a combined effort. So again, the "chosen executioner aspect" is largely the Wolves own opinion of themselves.

 

 

As for Abnett's suppositions about the Wolves existence, I have a much simpler answer: Because the Emperor largely did not concern himself with the Legions' character. Fenrisians were feral, Macragge-born discipline, The Khan's warriors wild, etc. So long as they did their duty and obeyed, the specifics were not his business. Kinda had bigger things to worry about. After all, if you are going to wonder about the Wolves, what about the World Eaters and the Night Lords?

 

 

The Imperium incorporated ALOT of different cultures and although most became subsumed into the standard Imperial norm, there was always deviation. The Adeptus Astartes generally had greater leeway in how far they deviated.

 

In short: calling them The Emperor's Executioners feels fanboyish and a bit of disservice to AT LEAST three other Legions.

[Lord_Caerolion]

While all that may be true, DV8, you then have to wonder why a Legion supposedly created to destroy other Legions was "given" so few Marines as to be counted amongst the smallest of them. Surely if you want a Legion to be able to destroy others, you want them to be at least equal, rather than often outnumbered by around 2-1, if not far, far more.

 

It's also strange how the genetic traits unique to each Primarch often mysteriously managed to fit in with the planet they landed on. The Emperor just happened to create a Primarch whos eyes were entirely pupil, and said Primarch just happened to land on a planet with no sunlight? The most powerfully psychic just happened to land on a planet of psykers? The one with a hyperactive melanchromic organ just happened to land on a volcanic planet? It gets a little too specific for it to have been entirely random.

 

Sorry for not posting a longer response, but I'm damn tired, and need some sleep.

[Billuriye]

I though this thread exhausted itself so it shut down. Some people must love to run in circles it seems.

[DV8]

While all that may be true, DV8, you then have to wonder why a Legion supposedly created to destroy other Legions was "given" so few Marines as to be counted amongst the smallest of them. Surely if you want a Legion to be able to destroy others, you want them to be at least equal, rather than often outnumbered by around 2-1, if not far, far more.

 

If you had read my post you would understand that wasn't my point at all. I never claimed that Space Wolves were created to destroy other Legions (that was a fanboi-ish claim made by Abnett that I neither support or reject, and one I believe was done simply to hype up the specific dichotomy between the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons).

 

My argument was against your post, specifically where you disbelieve the notion that the Space Wolves were "pre-made" with a purpose, where the other Legions simply happened to "fit in" to roles their Primarchs were more naturally inclined to (as a result of their personalities and upbringings). And my point was this: all of the Primarchs and their Legions were pre-made with a purpose, just as surely as that purpose was altered by the predispositions of the Primarchs and the resulting change of culture within the Legions as they recruited less from Terra (at this point one can assume one cultural stock) and more from their own homeworlds (a more diverse cultural stock, resulting in unique cultural differences between the Legions and more closely reflecting their Primarchs).

 

For example, Nostramo is a planet of criminals, murders, rapists et al, and having grown up as the 40k Batman, Konrad Curze becomes dark, brooding, a mysterious figure amongst the shadows, striking terror/fear into his enemies. This in turn slowly affects the battle tactics and modus operandi of the Night Lords Legion, which slowly becomes more depraved, more aggressive, and more (for lack of a better word) "evil" as more and more if the Legions numbers are recruited from the Nostraman population (re: the criminals, murders, rapists, etc.)

 

Similarly, Fenris is a death world made up what are basically norse/viking tribes; barbaric/feral to a point, uncultured (in comparison to say, Macragge), etc. Leman Russ, having been raised by wolves, has a wildness to him, and the culture traits (for example, the pack mentality) he inherits from his time amongst both the wolves and the Fenrisians carries over to the Legion, which in turn affects how they fight, their modus operandi. And as more and more Fenrisians are inducted into the ranks of the Sixth Legion, more of that culture is brought over; the Legion as a whole becomes more feral, more barbaric, more savage.

 

My point was that you cannot claim one Legion and one Legion alone was pre-destined for a role, without accepting that every other Legion was also pre-destined for a role, just as you cannot claim that every other Legion but one "moved into specialising" in a role without claiming that the last Legion did as well. The Primarchs and their Legions are a result of both the Emperor's purpose for them as much as they are a result of their cultural upbringing and the heritage they've inherited from their own homeworlds.

 

It's also strange how the genetic traits unique to each Primarch often mysteriously managed to fit in with the planet they landed on. The Emperor just happened to create a Primarch whos eyes were entirely pupil, and said Primarch just happened to land on a planet with no sunlight? The most powerfully psychic just happened to land on a planet of psykers? The one with a hyperactive melanchromic organ just happened to land on a volcanic planet? It gets a little too specific for it to have been entirely random.

 

Sorry for not posting a longer response, but I'm damn tired, and need some sleep.

 

Which brings me to my point of pre-destination; the Emperor must have known (at the very least) that the Primarchs would have been whisked away to particular planets, just as he must have created each of the Primarchs with a purpose. Knowing what kind of planet each of the Primarchs would have been cast to would have allowed the Emperor to pre-determine traits that would not only allow the Primarchs to survive in whatever homeworld they found themselves in (that one specific homeworld that was, as destiny would have it, meant for them), but would excel, carrying over with them the legacy of their homeworlds to change each of the Legions, making them reflections of both the Primarch and the homeworld. At this point the real question is, did the Emperor know of the Heresy, and the eventual fates of the Space Wolves, Night Lords, and World Eaters (as well as every other Legion out there) or was that aspect hidden from him?

 

I don't argue that perhaps the World Eaters or the Night Lords are as effective killers as the Space Wolves are. I argue that each of them had a pre-destined purpose even before they were scattered by Chaos, and that as a result of their upbringing moved into roles that were pre-determined for them by powers greater than the Primarchs. Be it the Emperor or the whims of Chaos (or the vagaries of fate and destiny) are really up for you to decide, but it doesn't change the fact that the Primarchs and their Legions were all set on very different paths from the very moment the Emperor created them.

 

EDIT:

It is at this point I have to wonder where the (arguably) irrational hatred of the Space Wolves is coming from? You play Night Lords, so I'm assuming some bias on your part (just as I am in a way biased towards Space Wolves), however in this entire thread I have read not a single post speaking of an unbiased perspective towards the Wolves (just lots of bile and anger and hate). Is it because the Horus Heresy novels are redefining the way you see the different Legions? I know in large part that my own preconceptions of what I thought I knew about each of the different Legions is being challenged and altered by the Horus Heresy novels, and I wonder if what angers you most is not that Space Wolves are the way they are, but that they are stepping on the proverbial toes of your Night Lords legion? Would it bother you as much if the Space Wolves had been revealed more as diplomats or logisticians hidden beneath their feral, barbaric uncouth ways? Or what if they had been revealed to be particularly adept at siege fighting?

 

You stated in your first post:

 

I never agreed with those statements in Prospero Burns, and unless they're revised in some way, never will.

 

The Horus Heresy on the one hand reveals and illuminates the events of the Horus Heresy, and at the same time redefines and challenges the way we view everything leading up to that climactic battle; it alters the way we see each of the different Legions (strong example, the Alpha Legion) and it changes the way we understand the events.

 

What about Prospero Burns sets you off so much that you cannot accept the changes, where every other change in every other Horus Heresy novel to date makes becomes acceptable? More to the point, what will happen if/when the Night Lords novel comes out, that you don't agree with the way Konrad and the Night Lords are represented?

 

EDIT 2:

I must also point out (and re-iterate as I mentioned this in my first post) that the concept or notion of the Space Wolves as "the executioner" Legion was an internal perspective (that is, one held solely within the Legion). Whether the other powers that be viewed the Space Wolves as such doesn't matter, because the Legions themselves were never pigeon-holed into such semantical roles. All the Legions were effective killers, and were more than suited for most any arena of war they were set upon. It just so happens that particular Legions excelled in certain arenas (Iron Warriors at siege warfare, for example) and thus were assigned more and more to those particular roles, because they were effective at it.

 

This begs another question, your thread title "Were the Space Wolves the best for the job?". What job? As "the executioners"? For killing another Legion? For the burning of Prospero? For the first, as an internal perspective, yes they were! The Space Wolves had their own pre-defined notions of wyrd, of pre-destiny, and each Legion they assigned a particular wyrd to was obviously the perfect one for that wyrd, otherwise they would have never been given that wyrd in the first place (or else they would have to redefine their own concepts of wyrd). As such, an internal perspective held solely within the Sixth Legion is hardly the basis for establishing their role, or the role of any other Legion.http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=231249&st=50&start=50#

 

For the killing of another Legion, I think, would break down to which Legion needed destroying, and in what arena they found themselves in. Certain Legions will naturally be more suited to killing each other than another would be. For example, the Imperial Fists defending a fortress would require a more specialized Legion to break out (like the Iron Warriors), or one with sufficient numbers to simply storm the walls (Ultramarines). The Imperial Fists in open killing ground, however, could be easily steam-rolled by the World Eaters.

 

For the burning of Prospero? The Canis Helix and their seemingly natural resistance would indicate that they were (coupled with the already small numbers of the Thousand Sons, the Space Wolves and having "fewer" Astartes than other Legions didn't really come into play).

 

 

DV8