Space Wolves, Night Lords and World Eaters

[Hfran Morkai]

As brutal as the Wolves are they only good at hitting targets who they know where they are, but they arent much use for trying destroy legions who would hide from the Wolves & would only appear to fight to them on their own terms like the Night Lords or the Alpha Legion.

 

If anything the real executioner legion would be the Alpha Legion as they are so thourough in their work they only ever turn up to fight if they've so stacked the odds in their favour their is no way an enemy could win. If the Alpha Legion was sent to destroy Prospero they would never have allowed Magnus to be able whisk his Legion away to the Planet of the Socerers as Russ did.

 

"allowed?"

 

Ahem, Magnus was "saved" by Tzeentch thank you very much, even after his back was broken by Russ. I think it was kind of unavoidable :(

[Marshal Wilhelm]

He is evil. Do not listen to his whispers and honey'd tongue! :P

 

I agree with the descriptions (as provided by the pov of the speaker)

 

It's not his tongue that is honeyed. He took it from someone else :P :eek :) <--see, no tongue....

 

I can definitely see why the Emperor would not task the World Eaters or the Night Lords with such delicate matters. However, the entire argument for why it was the wolves was not because they were compliant or effective or loyal, it was because they were the most badass of all the badasses.

 

Yes.

 

Abnett never talks about super obedience, or mad efficiency. Which would be IF and UM things anyway right?

Abnett talks about them being killy-scary-boogeymen.

 

+++

 

But being fluff, writing in segments, like a patchwork cloak, it isn't ever going to go together seamlessly.

Just squint and pretend, and you see Novel as Intended, not Novel as Read. :)

[Lord Ragnarok]

As brutal as the Wolves are they only good at hitting targets who they know where they are, but they arent much use for trying destroy legions who would hide from the Wolves & would only appear to fight to them on their own terms like the Night Lords or the Alpha Legion.

 

If anything the real executioner legion would be the Alpha Legion as they are so thourough in their work they only ever turn up to fight if they've so stacked the odds in their favour their is no way an enemy could win. If the Alpha Legion was sent to destroy Prospero they would never have allowed Magnus to be able whisk his Legion away to the Planet of the Socerers as Russ did.

 

The Emperor barely knew the Alpha Legion.

 

Also, the Wovles were very thorough. They are described as destroying everything. Every last life taken, every building annihilated. Magnus getting away is what makes them keen to finish the job after the Heresy, and makes them fall prey to mis direction to expose themselves to T.Son Invasion on Fenris. So the T.Sons are the ONE that got away. Does not mean they are not thorough. A last bit of sorcery and tzeentch not wanting to lose his prized pet subverted their thorough-ness.

[tiberium40k]

If anything the real executioner legion would be the Alpha Legion as they are so thourough in their work they only ever turn up to fight if they've so stacked the odds in their favour their is no way an enemy could win. If the Alpha Legion was sent to destroy Prospero they would never have allowed Magnus to be able whisk his Legion away to the Planet of the Socerers as Russ did.

 

If the Alpha Legion really were so good one wonders what was the point of having 20 Legions when apparently they could do everything themselves. Its like the Matt Ward description of the Ultramarines, really. Except it doesn`t catch flak from the fanbase.

[tiberium40k]

Eighth Captain Khârn, First Captain Sevatar

 

I wonder who would win if they were to fight each other.

[Billuriye]

Eighth Captain Khârn, First Captain Sevatar

 

I wonder who would win if they were to fight each other.

 

Khârn of course.

[Jim Shady]

As brutal as the Wolves are they only good at hitting targets who they know where they are, but they arent much use for trying destroy legions who would hide from the Wolves & would only appear to fight to them on their own terms like the Night Lords or the Alpha Legion.

 

If anything the real executioner legion would be the Alpha Legion as they are so thourough in their work they only ever turn up to fight if they've so stacked the odds in their favour their is no way an enemy could win. If the Alpha Legion was sent to destroy Prospero they would never have allowed Magnus to be able whisk his Legion away to the Planet of the Socerers as Russ did.

 

They'd be totally thourough. It'd be like Face of Treachery in Age of Darkness. Though, the flaw in that plan would be that someone within Thousand Sons would know they weren't from Prospero or Magnus would see through the mask of deception.

[ninja6fett]

Eighth Captain Khârn, First Captain Sevatar

 

I wonder who would win if they were to fight each other.

 

My vote is Khârn, not even death has managed to stop Khârn.

 

I'm really interested in seeing more of Sevatar though. The little glimpses we've gotten so far have been quite interesting.

[2000AD]

"allowed?"

 

Ahem, Magnus was "saved" by Tzeentch thank you very much, even after his back was broken by Russ. I think it was kind of unavoidable :)

 

Sorry to dampen your enthusiam but it is clear that Magnus permitted the Wolves to win...... they could have easily been obliterated before they set foot on the planet. Magnus by himself was easily capable of taking out the majority of the entire legion being 2nd only to the Emperor in psychic ability. Magnus sent half his fleet away and blocked psychic abilities so as to be able to "accept his fate" in a Konrad Curze esque fashion.

 

Thousand Sons makes this quite clear.

[ninja6fett]

"allowed?"

 

Ahem, Magnus was "saved" by Tzeentch thank you very much, even after his back was broken by Russ. I think it was kind of unavoidable :)

 

Sorry to dampen your enthusiam but it is clear that Magnus permitted the Wolves to win...... they could have easily been obliterated before they set foot on the planet. Magnus by himself was easily capable of taking out the majority of the entire legion being 2nd only to the Emperor in psychic ability. Magnus sent half his fleet away and blocked psychic abilities so as to be able to "accept his fate" in a Konrad Curze esque fashion.

 

Thousand Sons makes this quite clear.

 

Actually the point was to render BOTH Legions unable to operate for the remainder of the heresy if I recall what I read correctly, similar to the status of the Raven Guard, Sallies and Iron Hands. 1kSons would still have been decimated, but would have enacted a larger toll on the Wolves then they did had Magnus acted according to plan rather than temporarily accepting the decision of the Emperor.

 

 

Wolves had already destroyed at least 1 other Legion. I think they knew what they were doing.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'm really interested in seeing more of Sevatar though. The little glimpses we've gotten so far have been quite interesting.

 

Didn't he coin the phrase "Death to the False Emperor"? I'm with you, man. I really want to see him appear more looks at A D-B (who pretty much ended the thread with those quotes) :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

interesting tidbit i found while reading "Battle of the Fang"

 

This takes place between 2 Thousand Son sorcerers as they prepare to drill into the Fang

 

"Do I detect admiration, brother?" he [Aphael] asked. "If so, it is misplaced. They were made to do the dirty work no other legion would do. They are the exterminators, the vermin control of the Imperium. They cannot change, and they cannot improve. Just like us, they are imprisoned in the image of the primarch." page 281.

 

WLK

[Beef]

"allowed?"

 

Ahem, Magnus was "saved" by Tzeentch thank you very much, even after his back was broken by Russ. I think it was kind of unavoidable :o

 

Sorry to dampen your enthusiam but it is clear that Magnus permitted the Wolves to win...... they could have easily been obliterated before they set foot on the planet. Magnus by himself was easily capable of taking out the majority of the entire legion being 2nd only to the Emperor in psychic ability. Magnus sent half his fleet away and blocked psychic abilities so as to be able to "accept his fate" in a Konrad Curze esque fashion.

 

Thousand Sons makes this quite clear.

 

 

Sorry to Dampen your enthusiasm 2000AD but you cant argue that Magnus would have obliterated the SW before they even set foot on Prospero. If anything Magnus was over confident in his abilities. Whilst Magnus might have been able to take out the majority of the legion by himself, Russ was also capable of doing the same to the 1000 sons. The point is moot as Magnus got his butt handed to him by Russ, be it because he was going through a depression mode like Kurze or because Russ was simply better than him. The point is he lost and only Tzeentch's intervention saved him.

 

Magnus sent half his fleet away as he did not want all his sons to die for his mistakes.

[Lord Ragnarok]

"allowed?"

 

Ahem, Magnus was "saved" by Tzeentch thank you very much, even after his back was broken by Russ. I think it was kind of unavoidable ;)

 

Sorry to dampen your enthusiam but it is clear that Magnus permitted the Wolves to win...... they could have easily been obliterated before they set foot on the planet. Magnus by himself was easily capable of taking out the majority of the entire legion being 2nd only to the Emperor in psychic ability. Magnus sent half his fleet away and blocked psychic abilities so as to be able to "accept his fate" in a Konrad Curze esque fashion.

 

Thousand Sons makes this quite clear.

 

You are partially correct based on facts.

 

Tzeentch, did offer for Magnus to annihilate the Wolves while they were travelling in the warp on the way to Prospero but Magnus chose not to do this.

 

Whether Magnus, would have defeated the SW's if he kept his defenses alert and chose to fight right away is debatable, as stated, since the Primordial Annihilator wanted both Legions to destroy themselves, my assumption is that either winning side would have just been a Pyrrhic victory.

[2000AD]

Sorry to Dampen your enthusiasm 2000AD but you cant argue that Magnus would have obliterated the SW before they even set foot on Prospero. If anything Magnus was over confident in his abilities. Whilst Magnus might have been able to take out the majority of the legion by himself, Russ was also capable of doing the same to the 1000 sons. The point is moot as Magnus got his butt handed to him by Russ, be it because he was going through a depression mode like Kurze or because Russ was simply better than him. The point is he lost and only Tzeentch's intervention saved him.

 

Magnus sent half his fleet away as he did not want all his sons to die for his mistakes.

 

Wrong, wrong...... aaaaaaaand..... wrong.

 

1) Reread Thousand Sons

 

2) It states quite clearly Tzeentch gives Magnus the option of obliterating the SW before they even get near Prospero let alone on the surface. Magnus declines.

 

3) Magnus deactivates planetary defences, sends half the legion away and psychically blocks the rest of the legion on the surface, to prevent knowledge of SW arrival and prevent any defence till it was too late.

 

4) The SW themselves had to rely on help from the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to achieve their objective.

 

5) Magnus himself only decides to participate right near the end and only then to seal his "deserved fate".

 

6) Even with all the significant handicapping the SW still took heavy casualties.

 

 

It is patently obvious that Magnus wanted to lose as a punative measure.

 

Although we will never obviously know, it is apparent that even if Magnus chose not to destroy the SW before they reached Prospero (which he was well capable of doing) that an unhandicapped fight would undoubtedly have been very different indeed. And before you ask... no Im not a 1k fan (Khorne, Harlequins and Tau FYI).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sorry to Dampen your enthusiasm 2000AD but you cant argue that Magnus would have obliterated the SW before they even set foot on Prospero. If anything Magnus was over confident in his abilities. Whilst Magnus might have been able to take out the majority of the legion by himself, Russ was also capable of doing the same to the 1000 sons. The point is moot as Magnus got his butt handed to him by Russ, be it because he was going through a depression mode like Kurze or because Russ was simply better than him. The point is he lost and only Tzeentch's intervention saved him.

 

Magnus sent half his fleet away as he did not want all his sons to die for his mistakes.

 

Wrong, wrong...... aaaaaaaand..... wrong.

 

1) Reread Thousand Sons

Done

2) It states quite clearly Tzeentch gives Magnus the option of obliterating the SW before they even get near Prospero let alone on the surface. Magnus declines.

And by reading Prospero Burns, Chaos wanted BOTH sides mauled. any offer of power to magnus can be seen as a trick and so cannot be trusted as fact

3) Magnus deactivates planetary defences, sends half the legion away and psychically blocks the rest of the legion on the surface, to prevent knowledge of SW arrival and prevent any defence till it was too late.

He did down defenses. He then sent the fleet away. He did NOT send half the Legion away. In fact, other than those in the fleet, the entire Thousand Son Legion was on Prospero

4) The SW themselves had to rely on help from the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to achieve their objective.

As would any faction fighting against Astartes using daemoinc powers against them

5) Magnus himself only decides to participate right near the end and only then to seal his "deserved fate".

Magnus sealed his fate when he bartered with the Warp powers to save his legion. everything else was minor and only served to continue down the path.

6) Even with all the significant handicapping the SW still took heavy casualties.

any legion assaulting any legion's homeworld would take heavy casaualities. the cornered animal fights the fiercest, the cornered daemonic aided animal would be a insane opponent to face.

 

It is patently obvious that Magnus wanted to lose as a punative measure.

the only thing that is obvious is that the issue is open to multiple points of view.

Although we will never obviously know, it is apparent that even if Magnus chose not to destroy the SW before they reached Prospero (which he was well capable of doing) that an unhandicapped fight would undoubtedly have been very different indeed. And before you ask... no Im not a 1k fan (Khorne, Harlequins and Tau FYI).

Again, i dont believe he was capabale. As i mentioned above, Chaos wanted both sides burned, and the Sisters of Silence aura would have protected many of the Wolves around them on the journey to Prospero.they could have been hurt, but i doubt destroyed.

 

 

WLK

[Gree]

And by reading Prospero Burns, Chaos wanted BOTH sides mauled. any offer of power to magnus can be seen as a trick and so cannot be trusted as fact

 

That doesn't change the fact that to his knowledge the offer was real. Regardless he refused.

 

As would any faction fighting against Astartes using daemoinc powers against them

 

Not quite accurate. While the tutelaries where used, most of the stuff that the Thousand Sons did in combat where the same things Astartes psykers use in modern day use. Kine sheilds, pyromancy, etc, etc, all have been demonstrasted by modern day powers.

 

Then again the Wolves already had the deck stacked heavily in their favor. Even without the Sisters they still would have won in that kind of tactical situation. Orbital superioirity, outnumbering the foe, advantage of suprise, your enemy leader actively conspiring to aid you.

 

It's a commander's dream.

 

I'm not saying it was easy, but the Wolves would be hard-pressed to lose in that situation.

 

Magnus sealed his fate when he bartered with the Warp powers to save his legion. everything else was minor and only served to continue down the path.

 

Debatable really, who know what the Emperor could have done had Magnus and his Legion surrended peacefully?

 

any legion assaulting any legion's homeworld would take heavy casaualities. the cornered animal fights the fiercest, the cornered daemonic aided animal would be a insane opponent to face.

 

I do hope your not implying the Thousand Sons fought harder with those disadvantages than without them or that the Sons could have actually won. Cornered animal analogy aside, the Thousand Sons lost the fleet, orbital defenses, a good portion of their leadership ability, caught off guard and outnumbered. All of those are big disadvantages.

 

There was no way they could have won. Even if by some miracle they managed to defeat Russ's Legion on the ground they would have died from another orbital bombardment.

 

the only thing that is obvious is that the issue is open to multiple points of view.

 

Let's see, the man deliberatly goes out of his way to block the precog of his legion, murders one of his own trusted officers, does his absolute best at crippling his legion and he even mentions he would have disabled the Raptora shield if he could have gotten away with it. (Thus condemming his legion to death by orbital bombardment) and even flat out states to his Legion not to fight and accept their fate. He was essentially telling his men to commit suicide.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, the Wolves greatest ally during the Burning of Prospero was Magnus the Red.

[Yogi]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

My Blood God. Excellent. Wow.

 

ADB has gained the special rule Whisper of Slaanesh: When the Scribe ADB posts roll a D6, on a roll of 2+ or more convert cynical forum goer model to fanboy.

 

Edit: I was already a fanboy, but top stuff.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: as fun as the long drawn out debates online are (not very when both sides seem deadset against the other), i think i am going to have to quote myself here:

 

the only thing that is obvious is that the issue is open to multiple points of view.

 

I will agree with you by saying there is no way, in my opinion, the Thousand Sons could have defeated the Wolves in this situation. They could (and did) hurt the Wolves severly though.

 

@Yogi: i agree 100%. every time AD-B posts my fanboyism grows.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

The WE/NL descriptions gave me a fanboner. Uh oh.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The WE/NL descriptions gave me a fanboner. Uh oh.

 

QFT

 

WLK

[Perrin]

Without sounding full of myself... I think my answer was similar to AD-Bs, except without the amazing story writing talents ;)

 

WE cause they have been changed from what they were designed to be by the neural implants, NL cause of their homeplanet.

 

Whenever BlackLibrary wants to offer me a contract AD-B, just drop me a mail ;)

[eyeslikethunder]

Ive read these before what book are they from?

 

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

[A D-B]

Ive read these before what book are they from?

 

They're not from a novel. Not yet, anyway.

[RamrodMC]

I'd totally read a book that was just a collection of opinions from famous traitor Marines, on topics ranging from fleet combat to favourite Tabasco flavour. I envision it as a group effort by all the BL authors.