Space Wolves - Council of Nikaea

[MagicMan]

Something thats been bugging me, and never seemed to be satisfactorily explained.

 

 

 

Why did the Space Wolves make such a fuss over Magnus when they had their own Psykers?

 

 

And why did the Emperor ban the librarium project, but let the Space Wolves keep their rune priests?

[Magic Dragon]

I think it comes down to there being a difference between being a psyker and being a sorcerer. The Librarium project was viewed as getting a bit too close to sorcery and was thus shut down while Magnus was in the bad books (which he ironically just made worse). I have no idea why the rune priests were allowed to continue their use of their powers though... that one makes no sense to me.

[Lord Ragnarok]

In P. Burns and T. Sons the SW's make a distinction between "going to far". They see themselves as staying within limits while the T.Sons cross the line and tempt dangerous territory. Astropaths would be a use which is in limits and absolutely necessary. Magnus breaking down the barriers tot he web way which are connected to the Imperial palace would be "going to far".

 

As always it's a matter of perspective. TSons see them as hypocrites SW's see themselves as staying controlled and within limits. Rune Priests also seem to derive their power though the warp from Fenris which they probably can control better and is resistant to non Fenris based warp powers (my supposition based on P. Burns, T.Sons and "Battle of the Fang").

[Zynk Kaladin]

Adding to Lord Ragnarok's comments, it is my understanding that Rune priests use, well, runes which are a much more controlled way of channeling warp energies. The Eldar most definitely make use runes as well which also controls and enhances their power.

[Gree]

That however still doesn't answer the question of why the Wolves where allowed to keep their own psykers unless they defied the Emperor's will. It doesn't matter wheter they could control their powers or not. The Emperor's wording was quite clear that all Astartes psykers in the Astartes Legions could not function. Yet in Prospero Burns we have some Rune Priests using psychic powers on Hawser after the ruling.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That however still doesn't answer the question of why the Wolves where allowed to keep their own psykers unless they defied the Emperor's will. It doesn't matter wheter they could control their powers or not. The Emperor's wording was quite clear that all Astartes psykers in the Astartes Legions could not function. Yet in Prospero Burns we have some Rune Priests using psychic powers on Hawser after the ruling.

 

well, as the HH story is over yet, its kinda hard to preovide a satisfactory answer other they "the Wolves were hyprocrites"...which it seems most people want to hear.

 

myabe Russ got the thumbs up from the Emperor to test on hawser? maybe nikea was worded against sll psychic use, but only enforced on those who already crossed the line? there are a million "what ifs" but until we have a closure to the series this is a null question.

(basically meaning it cant be answered)

 

WLK

[Lord Ragnarok]

That however still doesn't answer the question of why the Wolves where allowed to keep their own psykers unless they defied the Emperor's will. It doesn't matter wheter they could control their powers or not. The Emperor's wording was quite clear that all Astartes psykers in the Astartes Legions could not function. Yet in Prospero Burns we have some Rune Priests using psychic powers on Hawser after the ruling.

 

well, as the HH story is over yet, its kinda hard to preovide a satisfactory answer other they "the Wolves were hyprocrites"...which it seems most people want to hear.

 

myabe Russ got the thumbs up from the Emperor to test on hawser? maybe nikea was worded against sll psychic use, but only enforced on those who already crossed the line? there are a million "what ifs" but until we have a closure to the series this is a null question.

(basically meaning it cant be answered)

 

WLK

 

Agreed,

Currently it is a fluff "loophole". Surely the Emperor knew that the Runepriests were still there and being used. It may get back to what I mentioned about Fenris and the power of the Priests being sourced through there. Perhaps the Emperor knew he had nothing to fear with respect to "going to far" with wolves. Perhaps he knew the base fear of Malificarum that all Fenrisians have not just the super Fenrisian Adeptus Astartes. Battle of the Fang hints at some of this(the nature of the planet v/s chaos, and some of the Emperor's works) so I won't go into detail as many have not read it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem is, the Emperor didn't really leave it as a "well, don't do this, but I'll only punish you if you go really over the line!" His words were "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers. Woe betide any who ignore my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

That's about as absolute as you can get with a ruling. No matter what way you spin it, the Wolves maintained their own version of the Librarius departments, and nothing has ever been mentioned regarding an exception to the ruling regarding them. We've also got the fact that in A Thousand Sons, Wyrdmake states outright that he believes the Runepriests don't use the Warp to fuel their powers, rather they use the "spirit of Fenris" or somesuch primitive nonsense. Of course, this is then directly contradicted in Prospero Burns, so Wyrdmake either has split-personality disorder, each believing contradictory things, or the writers didn't talk to each other about what they were saying about a common character.

[Yogi]

But space wolves not being able to read don't have a library.. So no need to close down a Librarius department. :cuss

[tiberium40k]

well, as the HH story is over yet, its kinda hard to preovide a satisfactory answer other they "the Wolves were hyprocrites"...which it seems most people want to hear.

 

Which is true until some other book explains it. The Emperor banned the use of psychic powers in the Legions. The Space Wolves kept using them. Ergo, they were damn dirty hypocrites.

 

Either that was the writers intention or Abnett simply didn`t pay enough attention when writing PB. Well, that or he didn`t read ATS and was going by the old "sorcery is banned" ruling (which would have made more sense, IMO).

[Hfran Morkai]

Space Wolves didn't have Librariums though *shrugs* Kind of hard to disband something you don't have. And I still don't know (Having not read many of the other Heresy books) whether or not it was all simply a front for Magnus and the other Legions were allowed to keep their Librarium or not.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, but that still doesn't get around the fact that the Emperor explicitly states: "never again use psychic powers". Regardless of the fact that you want to nitpick and call the Runepriests different than the Wolf equivalent of the Librarians, the Emperor explicitly forbade any Marine to ever use psychic powers again. The Wolves continued to use psychic powers, without being granted immunity from said ruling, therefore they are breaking said ruling. While breaking said ruling, they destroy another Legion for breaking the same ruling they are.

We know that every Legion had their Librariums disbanded, as the Ultramarines disbanded theirs, moving them back into the battle-companies, and forbidding them from using their powers again... just like the Wolves should have done.

 

Until the Wolves are stated to have been granted immunity to the ruling at Nikaea, they do not have immunity from breaking it. We can argue on and on about what may or may not have been said outside our view. Using that logic, Horus never turned, because he could have been ordered by the Emperor to do what he did. However, this has not been said. Therefore, the only information we have to make decisions is that Horus wasn't ordered to start a civil war, and Russ wasn't told "by the way, that ruling doesn't apply to the Wolves".

[Torvak Kyre]

I don't think the Space Wolves were being hypocritical it's just that they used the powers of Fenris in their psychic powers (look at the psychic powers in in C:SW, they're all to do with storms of Fenris) whereas the Space marine psychic powers use the power of the warp more and create things out of warp energy. The Space Wolves just thought that the T.Sons took it too far.

[Hfran Morkai]

Is the forbidding of psychic powers explicit though? Can you (or anyone) please provide a direct quote and page number as I don't have the materials to hand at the minute and all I remember reading is the disbanding of Librariums, not forbiddance of psychic powers.

 

Also Russ didn't try to destroy the Thousand Sons Legion because of the Sorcery, he did it because those were his orders.

 

They may be hypocrites if it is actually stated psychic powers were forbidden.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Check my first post in this thread. It gives the exact words as used in A Thousand Sons. The Emperor explicitly forbade any Legion member from using psychic powers. It doesn't matter whether the Wolves believe they use "the power of Fenris" in their powers or not. Regardless of belief, all psychic ability comes from the Warp, and it's still a psychic power. Under the Nikaea Edict, these are illegal in the Legions, regardless of supposed source.

[Captain Idaho]

Did the Space Wolves actually use powers post Nikaea? I never bought Prospero Burns but they don't use any powers in A Thousand Sons.

 

The Emperor never forbade pyschics existing in the Legions, he said they needed to return to their respective Companies and not use their powers, so if Prospero Burns hasn't got any mention of Rune Priests using their powers there isn't any hypocrisy there.

 

And if there is, then Russ is an arrogant bully! :)

[BearersOfSalvation]

Check my first post in this thread. It gives the exact words as used in A Thousand Sons. The Emperor explicitly forbade any Legion member from using psychic powers. It doesn't matter whether the Wolves believe they use "the power of Fenris" in their powers or not. Regardless of belief, all psychic ability comes from the Warp, and it's still a psychic power. Under the Nikaea Edict, these are illegal in the Legions, regardless of supposed source.

 

No, he didn't. The exact words in your quote are "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psychic powers." This doesn't ban psychic powers from all legions, it says that any legions with a Librarius department must disband it and the former members of the Librarius department must stop using powers. It doesn't say that a legion like the Wolves that never had a Librarius department would have to stop using psychic powers. I don't think the books have defined exactly what a Librarius department was at the time, but I think it's reasonable inference that 30k Librarius departments used questionable knowledge and techniques that members of a 40k Librarium would stay away from.

 

The bits where Thousand Sons complain about the wolves being hypocritical and claim that all psychic powers were forbidden ignores the specifics of the Emperor's decree, which is pretty common behavior when someone is ticked off. It's easier to rant and rave about the unfairness of what the Wolves do if you ignore that they weren't forbidden from doing it.a

[Captain Idaho]

I don't agree with that unless we get information saying other Legions still had psychic users outside the Librarius department. Going against the spirit of the rules like that is hypocritcal and if true is lame, since why wouldn't every Legion just change their organisation so they can get round the ruling?

 

Also, can someone confirm for me whether the Space Wolves actually USED any powers in Propsero Burns post Nikaea?

 

As I don't recall that at all in A Thousand Sons.

[Lord Ragnarok]

No, but that still doesn't get around the fact that the Emperor explicitly states: "never again use psychic powers". Regardless of the fact that you want to nitpick and call the Runepriests different than the Wolf equivalent of the Librarians, the Emperor explicitly forbade any Marine to ever use psychic powers again. The Wolves continued to use psychic powers, without being granted immunity from said ruling, therefore they are breaking said ruling. While breaking said ruling, they destroy another Legion for breaking the same ruling they are.

We know that every Legion had their Librariums disbanded, as the Ultramarines disbanded theirs, moving them back into the battle-companies, and forbidding them from using their powers again... just like the Wolves should have done.

 

Until the Wolves are stated to have been granted immunity to the ruling at Nikaea, they do not have immunity from breaking it. We can argue on and on about what may or may not have been said outside our view. Using that logic, Horus never turned, because he could have been ordered by the Emperor to do what he did. However, this has not been said. Therefore, the only information we have to make decisions is that Horus wasn't ordered to start a civil war, and Russ wasn't told "by the way, that ruling doesn't apply to the Wolves".

 

If no ruling then the Emperor didn't care as there was never any sanction for the Wolves.

[Codicier Lucion]

That's about as absolute as you can get with a ruling. No matter what way you spin it, the Wolves maintained their own version of the Librarius departments, and nothing has ever been mentioned regarding an exception to the ruling regarding them. We've also got the fact that in A Thousand Sons, Wyrdmake states outright that he believes the Runepriests don't use the Warp to fuel their powers, rather they use the "spirit of Fenris" or somesuch primitive nonsense. Of course, this is then directly contradicted in Prospero Burns, so Wyrdmake either has split-personality disorder, each believing contradictory things, or the writers didn't talk to each other about what they were saying about a common character.

 

That was intentional it seems. In one of the Youtube vids he made, Abnett stated directly that the books were being written from very different perspectives and certain characters might have totally contradictory personalities in each.

 

Though the only time we do see a Runepriest in A Thousand Sons was with Wyrdmake and he was doing it away from all the Custodes and representatives of the Emperor, even his own battle brothers. So the statements could have just been his own rather than that of the legion as a whole.

 

As I don't recall that at all in A Thousand Sons.

 

It was in A Thousand Sons but it was only one character doing it. If it helps jog your memory the Runepriest was the one Ahriman psychically burned the truth into his mind and made him brain-dead.

[Captain Idaho]

As I don't recall that at all in A Thousand Sons.

 

It was in A Thousand Sons but it was only one character doing it. If it helps jog your memory the Runepriest was the one Ahriman psychically burned the truth into his mind and made him brain-dead.

 

Ah but he didn't actually use his powers did he. He was pulled into a duel in the Warp by Ahriman, so had no choice to swim or die. Certainly not cause to think the whole of the Space Wolves Legion were disobeying the rules on this matter.

 

So if that is the only instance, in that case I'm going to side with those who believe the Space Wolves didn't even brake the spirit of the rules, let alone the core of the edict.

 

I've always wanted to say this, though it may be a bit off the mark of discussion here, but...:

 

The Thousand Sons deserved to die! They had good intentions, yes. They were loyal if disobedient. But they were corrupt and living on borrowed time! Their Primarch had sold their service to Tzeentch without even realising it. The only reason they never erupted into spawndom was his deal with the devil, which was a deal of servitude and possession.

 

And I say this having only read their side of the story! (1st book)

 

So regardless of how much the Space Wolves picked on them, or how they relished the destruction of their enemies, their cause was just whether they knew it or not. Sooner or later the Thousand Sons would be corrupted to disloyalty, and at least this way they were culled before they could do what had happened at Istvaan on a larger scale elsewhere.

[Gree]

Ah but he didn't actually use his powers did he. He was pulled into a duel in the Warp by Ahriman, so had no choice to swim or die. Certainly not cause to think the whole of the Space Wolves Legion were disobeying the rules on this matter.

 

In Prospero Burns you have two Rune Priests doing psychic work on Hawser's mind after the edict with Russ's knowledge and approval. That's a clear breach of the edict.

 

Later on in the novel a Rune Priest does something to a daemon but it's unclear whether it's a psychic attack or not.

[Codicier Lucion]

As I don't recall that at all in A Thousand Sons.

 

It was in A Thousand Sons but it was only one character doing it. If it helps jog your memory the Runepriest was the one Ahriman psychically burned the truth into his mind and made him brain-dead.

 

Ah but he didn't actually use his powers did he. He was pulled into a duel in the Warp by Ahriman, so had no choice to swim or die. Certainly not cause to think the whole of the Space Wolves Legion were disobeying the rules on this matter.

 

Yeah, you might want to read his scenes on Prospero again. He kills a Thousand Son with psychic powers before Ahriman comes across him and proudly declares that the Wolves have the strength to not be corrupted or some nonsese like that.

 

I've always wanted to say this, though it may be a bit off the mark of discussion here, but...:

 

The Thousand Sons deserved to die! They had good intentions, yes. They were loyal if disobedient. But they were corrupt and living on borrowed time! Their Primarch had sold their service to Tzeentch without even realising it. The only reason they never erupted into spawndom was his deal with the devil, which was a deal of servitude and possession.

 

And I say this having only read their side of the story! (1st book)

 

Soul binding would have helped and most likely saved them. There were some answers to save the legion, they just didn't know of what Magnus had done until it was too late to save them. Though the fact Russ dropped out of the warp guns blazing, thanks to Horus, certainly didn't help things.

 

So regardless of how much the Space Wolves picked on them, or how they relished the destruction of their enemies, their cause was just whether they knew it or not. Sooner or later the Thousand Sons would be corrupted to disloyalty, and at least this way they were culled before they could do what had happened at Istvaan on a larger scale elsewhere.

 

You really need to re-read the book again.

 

Magnus specifically shut down the early warning systems, major defences and refused help to destroy the Wolves while their fleet was in warp out of loyalty. He was loyal enough that he was willing to let every single last thing on Prospero die, including almost his entire legion, due to his mistake. Hell, he only joined Horus due to a lack of choice and that they were already seen as being full blown traitors thanks to his legion fighting back against the Wolves, an action which went against his wishes.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You know, I find it funny that a lot of Space Wolf players - I'm assuming that based on their user images - want some kind of justification for what Russ did.

 

There isn't any.

 

Russ and his legion did use a Librarius department, in the form of Rune priests. The spirit of Fenris is still a spirit, and spirits in 40k - especially ones that power psychic powers - are Warp based and are used by the psyker to do some otherwise impossible act.

 

Russ and his legion also hated Magnus and his legion for using psychic powers on them - but that was after the Space Wolves were going to kill the Thousand Sons who were guarding the library, so that they could destroy the library. The rough equivalent to that would be the Thousand Sons hating the Space Wolves for attacking them, when the Space Wolves were doing so to protect a human colony or a one of the weapons the Wolves had claimed in combat.

 

Both are equally ridiculous. But only one actually happened.

 

Something that people need to realise is that Russ and his legion are either hypocrites or self-deluding egotists. I suspect that it was set up that way by GW to add to their character.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm getting the impression from the HH books (though not from anything actually written), that the Crusade era Librarium was Magnus' brainchild, following all of his teachings. As such, the Council of Nikea banned Magnus' Librarium, which the Wolves did not follow. After the defense of Terra, when psykers were found to be needed in the fight against chaos, a new Librarium was formed under the aegis of the Codex Astartes, making it fundamentally a different service to the one banned, and most likely a codified version of the Rune Priests’ techniques. This could very well be covered in later HH novels, and display the true distinction between Psykers and Sorcery that is currently missing from storyline. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

SJ