Space Wolves - Council of Nikaea

[Raving Bonkers]

Hey guys, I'm slowly working my way through the books, only actually on the 3rd one in the series so have read nither of the two in question, but from reading the posts it states that Psychic Orders within legions had to be disbanded and the marines part of them returned to battle groups.

 

It just made me think, after reading book 2 I think it was, that Russ was sent to take Magnus (I forget so forgive if I'm wrong) back to Terra to see the Emperor but Horus had one of his allies convince Russ that Magnus had gone to far and needed to be dealt with. This may have been reason for Russ to turn around and gather those who had Psychic Abilities and had trained with them, knowing what he was going to face.

 

As a Space Wolves player I would admit this is hypocritical of him, but at the same time I would defend the Space Wolves and Russ in saying that it was a smart move as to have no psychic defence/attack against a planet with alot of well trained psykers would be foolish. I think if Russ went to Prospero with the intent of actually returning Magnus to Terra then the Rune Priest would not have been recalled.

 

Thats my take on what has been said here. As mentioned I have not read the books yet so I may be completely wrong.

 

RB

[Aegnor]

Does anyone who doesn't play Wolves accept that the difference between Librarians and Rune Priests has any basis in anything other than the delusions of the Rune Priests? The nonsense about their powers being derived from Fenris' environment is exactly that - a nonsense.

 

The nub should have been the Tutorlaries (forget the exact spelling). That is making pacts with daemons and is a clear way the T.Sons had gone beyond the pale.

[Perrin]

I agree with Aegnor about the delusional Rune Priests.

 

I find it hard to believe that Librarians that had trained so hard to master their powers, had used their powers before to help their fellow marines and to win battles, could just return to battle as a regular line soldier and never call on their powers again.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As Aegnor says, there is no difference between Rune Priests and Librarians other than terminology. The Rune Priests are the Wolf equivalent of the Librarium. They are the records-keepers of the Legion, and they are the psykers of the Legion. Arguing otherwise is pointless, because that means that any Legion could have gotten around it. "What? We have no Thousand Sons librarians any more! These are the Thousand Sons sorcerors!"

 

People are ignoring the fact that the Emperor states that no Legion member is to use psychic abilities. Regardless of how you spin it, they broke that commandment. In Prospero Burns, Wyrdmake even admits that the Rune Priests draw their power the exact same way as the Thousand Sons, but apparently they're ok, because they can control it. Unfortunately, that logic doesn't make any difference regarding the Edict. Under the old version, which differentiated between sorcery and psychic ability, yes. Sadly, this new version makes them one and the same in the Emperors eyes, and calling your Librarian a different name doesn't get you around that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the problem with the current answer is that for many years, Nikea was a ban on sorcery and NOT psychic powers. (which are 2 different things)

 

with the recent change of Nikea banning all psychers and not just sorcery, it makes the Wolves look plain ridiculous.

 

WLK

[Torvak Kyre]

The Space Wolves couldn't have used psychic powers due to the fact they bought sisters of silence. This act stopped any psychic powers ever being used.

 

Additionally, Leman Russ had sisters of silence with his Legion at all times after Nikea so the use of psychic powers was impossible.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except that it's stated that Wyrdmake never entered the influence of the SoS, so he could have used his own powers. They brought the Sisters, yes, but that doesn't mean that every Wolf was always affected all the time.

[Torvak Kyre]

Maybe Wyrdmake used psychic powers, I don't know, but that does not mean that all the Space Wolves were hypocritical.

 

One bad banana in a bunch does not mean the whole bunch is bad.

[Captain Idaho]

I admit I do need to read it again because my memory of it all is off, though when I asked for clarification and got none I logically assumed there were no other examples of Rune Priests using their powers (or else why did you wait for me to form a position to tell me)... ^_^

 

Anyway, if the Rune Priests did use their powers then they are hypocrits. It seems logical to know the other Space Wolves are going to know they are doing this, and for the Rune Priests to use their powers so openly indicates they had been using them for some time, thus the other Space Wolves would know what is going.

 

That would make them somewhat hypocritical.

 

But to re-iterate my stance in response to this:

 

Soul binding would have helped and most likely saved them. There were some answers to save the legion, they just didn't know of what Magnus had done until it was too late to save them. Though the fact Russ dropped out of the warp guns blazing, thanks to Horus, certainly didn't help things.

 

I don't know what you believe Soul Binding does? It doesn't prevent corruption or anything, and is only used for the weaker Astropaths to boost their resilience to the Warp. If your soul is already forfeit and you are already corrupt, what do you think Soul Binding would do?

 

And the Custodes and Sisters of Silence were not there just because of Horus. The Emperor sanctioned their use. It wasn't a diplomatic mission, they were sent to destroy the Thousand Sons and bring Magnus in.

 

Magnus specifically shut down the early warning systems, major defences and refused help to destroy the Wolves while their fleet was in warp out of loyalty. He was loyal enough that he was willing to let every single last thing on Prospero die, including almost his entire legion, due to his mistake. Hell, he only joined Horus due to a lack of choice and that they were already seen as being full blown traitors thanks to his legion fighting back against the Wolves, an action which went against his wishes.

 

So? He made a deal with the devil. He destroyed the Emperor's great plans on Earth. He changed his mind at the last minute about letting his Legion and knowledge die. He chose to join Horus when others chose death.

 

The Thousand Sons themselves were doomed to be Tzeentch's minions long before the attack on Prospero.

 

Let's not make an excuse for the actions of the Thousand Sons and Magnus because of their "good intentions". History is pathed with the aweful results of actions from people who had good intentions.

[Billuriye]

Maybe Wyrdmake used psychic powers, I don't know, but that does not mean that all the Space Wolves were hypocritical.

 

One bad banana in a bunch does not mean the whole bunch is bad.

 

That one bad banana is Leman Russ. Enough to contaminate whole legion.

[guthmaer]

the wolves used pshycic powers because they where tricked by chaos. the emperor only wanted magnus brought in to him it was horus that gave the order to destroy.so its easy to imagine horus giving russ the go ahead to use psyhcic powers. im a space wolf player and it also would fit their character to just ignore the ruling their superstiuse and would want defence against witchcraft. in the end every primarch belives he knows best which is why the civil war broke out.

[Torvak Kyre]

How is the bad banana Leman Russ?

 

What did he do?

[Billuriye]

He ignored Edict of Nikea and continued to employ psykers.

[Torvak Kyre]

Leman Russ didn't know that Wyrdmake was employing the use of psychic powers. Wyrdmake went behind Leman's Back.

[Billuriye]

Nevermind Wyrdmake, Rune Priests were never disbanded. Apparently Leman Russ sees his legion above the Emperor's verdict.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Russ and his legion did use a Librarius department, in the form of Rune priests. The spirit of Fenris is still a spirit, and spirits in 40k - especially ones that power psychic powers - are Warp based and are used by the psyker to do some otherwise impossible act.

 

Is there anywhere in any of the books where the Space Wolves are said to have a Librarius departmnet? The people calling the wolves hypocrites seem to be following the logic of 'we often call all marine psychers librarians, therefore any group of them is a librarius department', which doesn't seem to fit what's actually in the books.

 

Does anyone who doesn't play Wolves accept that the difference between Librarians and Rune Priests has any basis in anything other than the delusions of the Rune Priests?

 

I've never even owned a Space Wolf Codex or Space Wolf specific models, and have played my own chapter using either the Vanilla Codex/list or (for a bit during 2nd edition) the Blood Angels Codex. The silly forum idea that everyone who disagrees with you only does so because they play whatever army you don't like just doesn't make sense.

 

As Aegnor says, there is no difference between Rune Priests and Librarians other than terminology. The Rune Priests are the Wolf equivalent of the Librarium. They are the records-keepers of the Legion, and they are the psykers of the Legion.

 

They're clearly different other than terminology. The biggest difference, shown clearly in Thousand Sons, is that Rune Priests don't seek out old texts with forbidden knowledge to try to use it, they make sure it's all destroyed. That's a huge philosophical and practical difference, and it's clear even from the Thousand Son's perspective that the Rune Priests deliberately avoid dangerous practices, while the Thousand Sons seek them out and try to use them.

 

Arguing otherwise is pointless, because that means that any Legion could have gotten around it. "What? We have no Thousand Sons librarians any more! These are the Thousand Sons sorcerors!"

 

No, changing the names wouldn't work, because the edict specifically forbids the former members of any Librarius department from using psychic powers, they are required to fight just as regular marines. That's why the edict has that specific prohibition, it's not a ban on names, it's a ban on practices and acknowledgement that the old Librarius departments are tainted.

 

People are ignoring the fact that the Emperor states that no Legion member is to use psychic abilities. Regardless of how you spin it, they broke that commandment.

 

Again, the Emperor didn't issue an edict forbidding legion members in general from using psychic abilities, just the former members of Librarius departments.

[Gree]

Leman Russ didn't know that Wyrdmake was employing the use of psychic powers. Wyrdmake went behind Leman's Back.

 

 

Do I have to repeat my example of Helwinter and Wyrdmake doing psychic work on Hawser's mind after the edict with Russ's knowledge for the third time?

 

Russ and his legion did use a Librarius department, in the form of Rune priests. The spirit of Fenris is still a spirit, and spirits in 40k - especially ones that power psychic powers - are Warp based and are used by the psyker to do some otherwise impossible act.

 

Is there anywhere in any of the books where the Space Wolves are said to have a Librarius departmnet? The people calling the wolves hypocrites seem to be following the logic of 'we often call all marine psychers librarians, therefore any group of them is a librarius department', which doesn't seem to fit what's actually in the books.

 

Actually it kind of does. A White Scar Storm Seer is actually the leader of the delagation of Librarians who are the one's saying that sorcery is bad and Librarians must be controlled. He even talks a bit about the practices of the Storm Seers which emphasizes control. The White Scars probably don't call their Librarians ''Librarians'' but it's obvious what they are.

 

No, changing the names wouldn't work, because the edict specifically forbids the former members of any Librarius department from using psychic powers, they are required to fight just as regular marines. That's why the edict has that specific prohibition, it's not a ban on names, it's a ban on practices and acknowledgement that the old Librarius departments are tainted.

 

No, we even have a delegation of Librarians from other Legions saying that their must be a limit for psykers. The Librarius system as a whole does not seem to be tainted as you put it.

 

But then again you are ignoring the point that the only Legion members who used psychic powers were the Librarius departments.

 

Again, the Emperor didn't issue an edict forbidding legion members in general from using psychic abilities, just the former members of Librarius departments.

 

Going by your logic Storm Seers would be unaffected, yet they are lumped in the same catagory as everyone else.

 

In fact going by Dorn's reaction in Flight of the Eisenstein he acts like all psykers are banned, asking if one of the Death Guard marines is a psyker, not a Librarian. When Garro goes to collect Rubio he doesn't go for any other non-Librarian psyker. It's pretty blatantly obvious that the Emperor intended for all psychic powers to be restricted. Otherwise the Thousand Sons could simply raise their next generation of neophtyes as ''warpcallers'' and claim innocence.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Leman Russ didn't know that Wyrdmake was employing the use of psychic powers. Wyrdmake went behind Leman's Back.

 

 

Do I have to repeat my example of Helwinter and Wyrdmake doing psychic work on Hawser's mind after the edict with Russ's knowledge for the third time?

 

I know it's frustrating, there are a lot of one liners from all sides of view without reading earlier posts. Which also means it places the discussion in jeopardy as it appears the beginnings of chasm like circles are being formed.

 

That said, Let's try and keep he commentary less terse please.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Russ and his legion did use a Librarius department, in the form of Rune priests. The spirit of Fenris is still a spirit, and spirits in 40k - especially ones that power psychic powers - are Warp based and are used by the psyker to do some otherwise impossible act.

 

Is there anywhere in any of the books where the Space Wolves are said to have a Librarius departmnet? The people calling the wolves hypocrites seem to be following the logic of 'we often call all marine psychers librarians, therefore any group of them is a librarius department', which doesn't seem to fit what's actually in the books.

Yes. Rune Priests are their body of psychic Marines within the Legion, which is the basic definition of a Librarius. If you want to be more picky, the Librarians also maintain the records of the Chapter, which the Rune Priests do as well. As Gree states, we've seen from the White Scars that a Legion can have 'Librarians' without calling them that, as seen by the Storm Seers. Like the Rune Priests, these aren't called Librarians, but they still come under the Nikaea Edict.

 

As Aegnor says, there is no difference between Rune Priests and Librarians other than terminology. The Rune Priests are the Wolf equivalent of the Librarium. They are the records-keepers of the Legion, and they are the psykers of the Legion.

 

They're clearly different other than terminology. The biggest difference, shown clearly in Thousand Sons, is that Rune Priests don't seek out old texts with forbidden knowledge to try to use it, they make sure it's all destroyed. That's a huge philosophical and practical difference, and it's clear even from the Thousand Son's perspective that the Rune Priests deliberately avoid dangerous practices, while the Thousand Sons seek them out and try to use them.

 

Well, neither do modern-day Librarians, so I guess they aren't Librarians either. The Storm Seers didn't act exactly like the Thousand Sons, yet they were still affected. Like every other example, each Legion put their own spin on common things, with rank and structure being affected by native culture. The Thousand Sons had a much more scholarly culture, and their psychic marines reflected that. The Wolves had a different culture, so of course their Librarians are going to act, look and be named differently.

 

Arguing otherwise is pointless, because that means that any Legion could have gotten around it. "What? We have no Thousand Sons librarians any more! These are the Thousand Sons sorcerors!"

 

No, changing the names wouldn't work, because the edict specifically forbids the former members of any Librarius department from using psychic powers, they are required to fight just as regular marines. That's why the edict has that specific prohibition, it's not a ban on names, it's a ban on practices and acknowledgement that the old Librarius departments are tainted.

 

Once again, by your logic, the White Scars didn't have a Librarius, they had the Order of Storm Seers, yet they were affected by the Edict, and it was disbanded. However, using this post: "it's not a ban on names, it's a ban on practices", yes. Yes it is. It isn't a ban on individuals known by the rank of Librarian. It's a ban on the practice of psychic ability within the Legions, most commonly seen in organisations called a Librarius, although some Legions had different names for it, such as Storm Seers or Rune Priests.

 

People are ignoring the fact that the Emperor states that no Legion member is to use psychic abilities. Regardless of how you spin it, they broke that commandment.

 

Again, the Emperor didn't issue an edict forbidding legion members in general from using psychic abilities, just the former members of Librarius departments.

 

I'll ask you to read what the Emperor said once again. All psychic marines were to be returned to battle companies, and never to use psychic powers ever again. Even if we do take your argument as truth, the fact remains that the Wolves wilfully broke the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. The Emperor outlawed all psychic ability. He did not state "and they shall only use psychic powers in this certain way". He stated "never again employ psychic powers".

 

It was an Edict that affected all Legions. Every Legion had their own unique titles for things, but that doesn't change what they inherently are. By your logic, the Wolves aren't restricted by the limit of 1000 Battle Brothers either, because they don't have them, they have Grey Hunters and Blood Claws. This logic only makes sense as long as you wilfully ignore the fact that the Rune Priests are the Space Wolf Librarians in everything but name. Everything that the Emperor was outlawing (psychic marines), the Rune Priests were. You're getting hung up on the word "Librarius", and wilfully ignoring the fact that other Legions were affected, yet some used a different term than Librarius themselves.

[Lord Ragnarok]

OK, so instead of relying on memory (mine or anyone else in the thread), I've cracked open T.Sons and looked at the emperor's ruling. Keep in mind I want the truth and will try to refuse to give into subjectivity.

 

The ruling focuses on Sorcery and Eliminates the Libriaus Departments :

 

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

Supposition:

This is confusing the debate. Wolves have no Librians or Librarius. There is nothing to "no longer maintain". Also what is the distinction of using psychic powers vs sorcery. The term is perhaps used synonymously. When the two RunePriests delving into Hawser's mind use psychic powers or sorcery? If someone knows of the definitive cited source of definition between the two please speak up. That said, it is still focused on Librarians as the focus of using psychic powers. Rune Priests and Librarians are just not the same. Some addendum would be needed or the edict re-worded to accommodate any differences. Think of the Emperor as a Judge a ruling would need to be in depth. As Lord C. stated, we can't assume anything, so we can't assume The Emperor included Rune Priests in his ruling.

[Gree]

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

If he wanted to eliminate the threat of sorcery and only sorcery he would have said ''one must not do this with your powers but this instead.''. Except the Emperor bans all psychic powers, even those from the Storm Seers, whose members even talks about how their needs to be limits and careful training for Librarians.

 

Also what is the distinction of using psychic powers vs sorcery. The term is perhaps used synonymously.

 

The term is used synonymously in the Heresy series. However Dark Heresy classifies sorcery as making pacts with daemons.

 

The Tutelaries are sorcery. However the other non TS Librarians such as the Storms Seers and Rubio, are not sorcerers as they don't do that.

 

That said, it is still focused on Librarians as the focus of using psychic powers. Rune Priests and Librarians are just not the same. Some addendum would be needed or the edict re-worded to accommodate any differences. Think of the Emperor as a Judge a ruling would need to be in depth. As Lord C. stated, we can't assume anything, so we can't assume The Emperor included Rune Priests in his ruling.

 

I'll again pull out the Storm Seers example. The White Scars don't call them Librarians, but they get lumped into the same group at Nikea

[Warsmith IV]

This whole argument seems to revolve around fanboyism on both sides, people who like the Sons calling the Wolves hypocrites, adn people who like the Wolves refusing to aknowledge facts in print.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there were legitemate reasons for the Thousand Sons turning to Chaos, just as there were legitemate reasons for the Space Wolves destroying them. The whole point of the series is that there is no clear-cut right and wrong.

 

The Edict of Nikea clearly bans all psychic powers int he legiones astartes, as all psykers were part of the universal librarius department. The problem is that the Rune Priests were set up seperately because Russ didn't like Magnus' approach, and the Wolves have a LOT of primitive superstition to the tune of "it's the power of Fenris, not the Warp."

 

Basically, the Wolves broke the Edict, but as far as they're concerned they didn't, because they view themselves as different from other psykers. The Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes would most likely have disapproved of this, but focussed on the task in hand of destroying the Sons as a priority. Had the Emperor not been critically wounded by the time the Wolves arrived at Terra, they would probably have been punished when the Custodes told the Emperor. As it was, the Emperor could do nothing and nobody else would dare sanction against a Primarch, so the Rune Priests continued and were eventually accepted with the introdcution of the Codex Astartes.

 

The Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves, Magnus the Red and Leman Russ, they're all in the wrong. That's a pretty consistent theme in the Horus Heresy.

[Torvak Kyre]

Whether the Space Wolves kept their Rune Priests or not is unimportant as the Emperor didn't sanction them. He obviously didn't have a problem with what the Space Wolves were doing.

[Gree]

Whether the Space Wolves kept their Rune Priests or not is unimportant as the Emperor didn't sanction them. He obviously didn't have a problem with what the Space Wolves were doing.

 

Or he did't know because they ignored him..............

[Torvak Kyre]

Leman Russ might of been thought of as a barbarian but he had enough honor not to go behind his father's back.