Space Wolves - Council of Nikaea

[Lord Ragnarok]

"But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers."

 

If he wanted to eliminate the threat of sorcery and only sorcery he would have said ''one must not do this with your powers but this instead.''. Except the Emperor bans all psychic powers, even those from the Storm Seers, whose members even talks about how their needs to be limits and careful training for Librarians.

 

Also what is the distinction of using psychic powers vs sorcery. The term is perhaps used synonymously.

 

The term is used synonymously in the Heresy series. However Dark Heresy classifies sorcery as making pacts with daemons.

 

The Tutelaries are sorcery. However the other non TS Librarians such as the Storms Seers and Rubio, are not sorcerers as they don't do that.

 

That said, it is still focused on Librarians as the focus of using psychic powers. Rune Priests and Librarians are just not the same. Some addendum would be needed or the edict re-worded to accommodate any differences. Think of the Emperor as a Judge a ruling would need to be in depth. As Lord C. stated, we can't assume anything, so we can't assume The Emperor included Rune Priests in his ruling.

 

I'll again pull out the Storm Seers example. The White Scars don't call them Librarians, but they get lumped into the same group at Nikea

 

You are assuming Stormseers don't equal Librians in practice. IN 40k They are still called Storm seers but WS are definitley codex. The same can't be said of Wolves. Rune Priests are not part of any organization other than The Great Wolf's's Great Company or maybe in HH part of each Great Company. Rune Priest is not another way to say "Librarian" Like Storm Seers or Prognosticators.

 

Also, Please address the commentary on a Legal ruling. If the Emperor wanted to outlaw RunePriest I would think he would address them directly. Otherwise it appears an intentional loop hole. Or, there was realization of the loophole but had no issue with sanctioning, as the nature of the SW's and their use of powers are not derived in exactly the same manner and in often cases is an anathema to the general use of "untamed" warp power.

 

 

Leman Russ might of been thought of as a barbarian but he had enough honor not to go behind his father's back.

 

Let's keep this on topic.

[Gree]

Leman Russ might of been thought of as a barbarian but he had enough honor not to go behind his father's back.

 

He may not have thought of it going behind his father's back. Magnus had the best of intentions for example. We see repeatedly that the Wolves consider their form of psychic practices to be same. It doesn't matter if that\'s true or not. They thought they could handle it. Just like the Thousand Sons thought they here right.

 

I kinda like that idea actually, makes the Wolves and the Sons similar on a certain level.

 

You are assuming Stormseers don't equal Librians in practice.

 

I'm assuming they do actually. Just like there is no practical differences in my view between the Rune Priests and non-TS sorcerers like Rubio, who don\'t use daemons or sorcery.

[Torvak Kyre]

Leman Russ might of been thought of as a barbarian but he had enough honor not to go behind his father's back.

 

He may not have thought of it going behind his father's back. Magnus had the best of intentions for example. We see repeatedly that the Wolves consider their form of psychic practices to be same. It doesn't matter if that\'s true or not. They thought they could handle it. Just like the Thousand Sons thought they here right.

 

I kinda like that idea actually, makes the Wolves and the Sons similar on a certain level.

 

It seems kind of funny that ,eventhough they hate each other, the two legions have a kinship like that.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Leman Russ might of been thought of as a barbarian but he had enough honor not to go behind his father's back.

 

He may not have thought of it going behind his father's back. Magnus had the best of intentions for example. We see repeatedly that the Wolves consider their form of psychic practices to be same. It doesn't matter if that\'s true or not. They thought they could handle it. Just like the Thousand Sons thought they here right.

 

I kinda like that idea actually, makes the Wolves and the Sons similar on a certain level.

 

You are assuming Stormseers don't equal Librians in practice.

 

I'm assuming they do actually. Just like there is no practical differences in my view between the Rune Priests and non-TS sorcerers like Rubio, who don\'t use daemons or sorcery.

 

But there is. The power is derived differently and sw's stay within limits. Not dabbling just to dabble. Curiosity is frowned upon in fenrisian culture. And still see no evidence of he emperor ruling against sw's, just assumptions. If we want to debate on things outside of what is provided I would reiterate my eaier opinion that the emp had nothing to fear from sw's given their accultured hate towards malificarum.

 

Also even if I believe they are hypocrites, we are looking at a couple of instances of psychic use on a minor scale. If we allow further supposition I don't find it hard for any legion not to forgo the edict in he most dire circumstances.

[MagicMan]

Eek, seemed to have opened can of fan-worms here.

[Billuriye]

This "Rune Priests are different, they know their limits" and "runes are not prone to daemonic influence" thingie is ridiculous. Who can draw a limit when it comes to warp ? Even Emperor didn't bother with that, he just banned the usage of non-essential psyker usage. All these Rune Priest white washing is fandom induced rationalization nothing more.

[Codicier Lucion]

I don't know what you believe Soul Binding does? It doesn't prevent corruption or anything, and is only used for the weaker Astropaths to boost their resilience to the Warp. If your soul is already forfeit and you are already corrupt, what do you think Soul Binding would do?

 

Sorry I should have made my point more clear, I meant it could have saved the legion itself. As far as I know most of the corruption came to the legion because they were supposedly drawing their power from daemons or something, and it was suggested that the flesh-change was a form of mutation. Most likely coming from Tzeentch or being caused by the daemons.

 

The vast majority of current members of the Sons were doomed, but the younger members and future recruits could have been saved by having their resistance against the Warp increased.

 

And the Custodes and Sisters of Silence were not there just because of Horus. The Emperor sanctioned their use. It wasn't a diplomatic mission, they were sent to destroy the Thousand Sons and bring Magnus in.

 

Or more likely they were there in case the Thousand Sons started to shoot back. After all, a legion worth of psychers is still going to do a lot of damage even against another one like the Space Wolves.

Horus was the one who managed to convince Russ to kill off the Thousand Sons, last I heard stating something like "the Emperor means he wants you to kill them". So the Custodes and Sisters probably joined in thinking they were carrying out the Emperor's decree.

 

So? He made a deal with the devil. He destroyed the Emperor's great plans on Earth. He changed his mind at the last minute about letting his Legion and knowledge die. He chose to join Horus when others chose death.

 

The Thousand Sons themselves were doomed to be Tzeentch's minions long before the attack on Prospero.

 

Let's not make an excuse for the actions of the Thousand Sons and Magnus because of their "good intentions". History is pathed with the aweful results of actions from people who had good intentions.

 

What i'm saying is that if Russ had not exited the warp and started killing everything in sight like a bloodthirsty madman, Magnus probably would have come quietly.

He was loyal enough to do that and if Russ had not listened to Horus the loyalists might have bad another legion to use against the traitors. At the very least the Space Wolves would not have suffered the same casualties they did on Prospero.

 

Besides, you could criticise and decry the actions of almost every single last member of every single faction in Warhammer 40K by saying "good intentions don't matter."

[Gree]

But there is. The power is derived differently and sw's stay within limits.

 

Or at least they think they do. Lots of people think they are safe with the warp only to find themselves wrong.

 

Not dabbling just to dabble.

 

Like with the Storm Seer who warned against dabbling and Rubio? They got banned as well.

 

And still see no evidence of he emperor ruling against sw's, just assumptions.

 

We've already established that psychic powers where banned in the Legions, even amoung those who weren't like the Thousand Sons. We know the Rune Priests employ psychic powers (psychic powers that where prohibited in all Legions, the Emperor stated no exceptions) and they keep records, just like Librarians.

 

Even is by some twist of logic you want to look at a loophole in the lettering of the law, the fact still remains that the Wolves where breaking the spirit of the law. We know that non-dabblers like the Storm Seer was banned without exception along with the Thousand Sons, and yet the Rune Priests continue to use their powers?

 

If the Wolves got special permission from the Emperor then would't that be mentioned in Prospero Burns? Or in A Thousand Sons when Ahirman is looking through Wyrdmake's memories?

 

Also even if I believe they are hypocrites, we are looking at a couple of instances of psychic use on a minor scale. If we allow further supposition I don't find it hard for any legion not to forgo the edict in he most dire circumstances.

 

I'm sure that's the exact justifcation that Magnus provided for the psychic message. The Emperor's word is the Emperor's word, regardless of anything otherwise.

[Walter Payton]

Magnus had the best of intentions for example.

 

I've not read A Thousand Sons, so it might well have been retconned, but Index Astartes: Thousand Sons seems to say that Magnus chose to use the daemonic spell essentially to justify his own methods to the Emperor, which rather blackens his "good intentions."

[Codicier Lucion]

I've not read A Thousand Sons, so it might well have been retconned, but Index Astartes: Thousand Sons seems to say that Magnus chose to use the daemonic spell essentially to justify his own methods to the Emperor, which rather blackens his "good intentions."

 

He did, but he didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Due to the disturbances in the warp communication via astropath was almost impossible and frequently unreliable, they used a spell because it was their only chance of reaching Horus (to try and convince him not to turn to chaos) and the Emperor in time.

 

Also, I think it was just sorcery rather than a daemonic spell.

[Walter Payton]

I've not read A Thousand Sons, so it might well have been retconned, but Index Astartes: Thousand Sons seems to say that Magnus chose to use the daemonic spell essentially to justify his own methods to the Emperor, which rather blackens his "good intentions."

 

He did, but he didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Due to the disturbances in the warp communication via astropath was almost impossible and frequently unreliable, they used a spell because it was their only chance of reaching Horus (to try and convince him not to turn to chaos) and the Emperor in time.

 

Also, I think it was just sorcery rather than a daemonic spell.

 

Fair enough (although the IA definitely says "daemonic spell.")

 

Of course, it was still an...unwise course of action, as Magnus's spell did more to cripple the Imperial war effort than aid it.

[Gree]

Magnus had the best of intentions for example.

 

I've not read A Thousand Sons, so it might well have been retconned, but Index Astartes: Thousand Sons seems to say that Magnus chose to use the daemonic spell essentially to justify his own methods to the Emperor, which rather blackens his "good intentions."

 

I suggest you read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns before you participate in this discussion, because frankly alot of stuff has been retconned with the two novels. I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Or at least they think they do. Lots of people think they are safe with the warp only to find themselves wrong.

 

We are not discussing anyone but sw's and t.sons. The nature of sw's won't allow them to go beyond on a wide scale. I fully expect a rune priest, who was found to tread too far, would be dealt with quite severly. Like when the Balt and Ratkana(sp) came after the Ascommani.

[Walter Payton]

I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

 

You mean the mysterious spell that led to his first involvement with Chaos? That was totally a good idea...

[Gree]

I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

 

You mean the mysterious spell that led to his first involvement with Chaos? That was totally a good idea...

 

It was either that or watch his legion die horible agonising deaths through uncontrolled mutation. Not much of a choice really.

 

We are not discussing anyone but sw's and t.sons.

 

Yeah, I know, but the general nature of the warp is used in the greater context of the discussion.

 

The nature of sw's won't allow them to go beyond on a wide scale. I fully expect a rune priest, who was found to tread too far, would be dealt with quite severly.

 

That's only if they believe they've gone too far.

[Walter Payton]

I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

 

You mean the mysterious spell that led to his first involvement with Chaos? That was totally a good idea...

 

It was either that or watch his legion die horible agonising deaths through uncontrolled mutation all the while he could chose save them.

 

He never saved them.

[Gree]

I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

 

You mean the mysterious spell that led to his first involvement with Chaos? That was totally a good idea...

 

It was either that or watch his legion die horible agonising deaths through uncontrolled mutation all the while he could chose save them.

 

He never saved them.

 

Uh, yeah he did. A Thousand Sons details on how his deal stabilised the geneseed so that the Thousand Sons could serve in the Great Crusade. Magnus has seperate conversions with Ahirman and a daemon on it. Ahirman even talks about how the Legion was dying before Magnus saved them. It's rather explictly spelled out.

 

Once again, I suggest you read A Thousand Sons before you continue in this discussion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, in A Thousand Sons, even Ahriman balks at the spell being used to contact the Emperor.

Magnus bascially tells him they he knows what he is doing, and the sacrifice of acolytes will be worth the risk when they are successful.

 

pretty much sounds like a daemonic spell to me. He is using his Warp born powers and augmenting that with living sacrifices to power through the Emperor's wards.

 

yea, seems legit to me (sarcasm).

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

I was avtually referring to the deal Magnus made to save his Legion as well as his descision to cast the spell for the Emperor.

 

You mean the mysterious spell that led to his first involvement with Chaos? That was totally a good idea...

 

It was either that or watch his legion die horible agonising deaths through uncontrolled mutation all the while he could chose save them.

 

He never saved them.

 

Uh, yeah he did. A Thousand Sons details on how his deal stabilised the geneseed so that the Thousand Sons could serve in the Great Crusade. Magnus has seperate conversions with Ahirman and a daemon on it. Ahirman even talks about how the Legion was dying before Magnus saved them. It's rather explictly spelled out.

 

And what happened after that? After the flesh-change returned? The Legion became automatons and slaves. You know, the whole Rubric thing. He granted them a stay of execution, not a salvation.

 

His deal was a Faustian Pact, and it backfired on him in spectacular fashion. .

[Gree]

Well, in A Thousand Sons, even Ahriman balks at the spell being used to contact the Emperor.

Magnus bascially tells him they he knows what he is doing, and the sacrifice of acolytes will be worth the risk when they are successful.

 

pretty much sounds like a daemonic spell to me. He is using his Warp born powers and augmenting that with living sacrifices to power through the Emperor's wards.

 

yea, seems legit to me (sarcasm).

 

WLK

 

I said he went into them witht he best intentions, not that the descision was morally right. That's two different things.

 

And what happened after that? After the flesh-change returned? The Legion became automatons and slaves. You know, the whole Rubric thing. He granted them a stay of execution. His tragedy is that he thought he had a choice, when he never did.

 

No, not quite. He still made the descision to save them with the best of intentions at the time. That doesn't really counter my point about his intentions at all.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: how is arrogantly dismissing other options "the best of intentions"? he claimed that a astropath wasnt fast enough, a ship would take too long...

 

Garro used a ship. Garro battered his way through the Warp to reach with Terra with the message as it was important to him that it be properly recieved.

 

Magnus used a daemonic spell to prove he was right, that he could control the warp. he wasnt warning the Emperor, he was giving the middle finger while surrounded by a metal rock band and fireworks to his detractors. for his arrogance he paid the price. its a pity his resolved didnt hold and he took the cowards way out. If he stayed loyal he would have came to the Emperor, rather than inflicting harm on both the Wolves and his Sons.

 

and again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

WLK

[Gree]

@Gree: how is arrogantly dismissing other options "the best of intentions"? he claimed that a astropath wasnt fast enough, a ship would take too long...

 

Oh, it's quite simple. Magnus wants to help the Emperor and decides to warn him. Logically speaking those are good intentions.

 

Garro used a ship. Garro battered his way through the Warp to reach with Terra with the message as it was important to him that it be properly recieved.

 

Garro was not a psyker, had no other choices, confused and shocked, and spent quite a while in the warp.

 

Magnus used a daemonic spell to prove he was right, that he could control the warp. he wasnt warning the Emperor, he was giving the middle finger while surrounded by a metal rock band and fireworks to his detractors. for his arrogance he paid the price.

 

No, not quite, that was only one part of an aspect. The primary intention was to help the Emperor, which logically speaking is a good thing. Their exist other aspects, but the primary focus was fuled by MAgnus's vision of Horus's treachery.

[Walter Payton]

Well, in A Thousand Sons, even Ahriman balks at the spell being used to contact the Emperor.

Magnus bascially tells him they he knows what he is doing, and the sacrifice of acolytes will be worth the risk when they are successful.

 

pretty much sounds like a daemonic spell to me. He is using his Warp born powers and augmenting that with living sacrifices to power through the Emperor's wards.

 

yea, seems legit to me (sarcasm).

 

WLK

 

I said he went into them witht he best intentions, not that the descision was morally right. That's two different things.

 

Well that's a whole different debate, depending on whether the ends justify the means or if the character of the actions excuse the consequences.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_ethics

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics

 

And what happened after that? After the flesh-change returned? The Legion became automatons and slaves. You know, the whole Rubric thing. He granted them a stay of execution. His tragedy is that he thought he had a choice, when he never did.

 

No, not quite. HE still made the descision to save them with the best of intentions at the time. That doesn't really counter my point about his intentions at all.

 

I'm not discussing his intentions in relation to the "flesh-change pact". His intentions were good in that instance. What I am discussing is his wisdom in entering into the pact.

[Lord Ragnarok]

We are getting off topic.

 

SW's, hypocrites or not, with respect to psychic powers and their use? Please let that form your points. Debating points should reflect the original topic. (I'm including myself in this nudge).

[Hfran Morkai]

Cheers Rags for the nudge back on topic.

 

In my mind Space Wolves are not hypocrites, now before you decry fanboyism and the like please read my reasoning. Space Wolves took issue with Maleficarum or Sorcerors, not with Psykers (Whether they were "blessed by the storm" or not). The Space Wolves were not hypocrites for decrying Magnus and his legion's use of their ability due to the sorcery involved because they Wolves don't invoke sorcery or try to gain power over the warp (which is what the Thousand Sons wanted, I remember the bit where Ahriman commented on the lack of runes for power with Wyrdmake).

 

They did break the law set down by the council of Nikea as far as we are aware. That is if you go by the most recent fluff however and there are multiple versions of the same story. Look at it, the council of Nikea was recounted from who's perspective? Oh yeah, Ahriman, hardly an unbiased force in the universe.

 

So, Space Wolves are not hypocrites however they may well have disobeyed orders but that is how the Wolves operated and have pretty much always operated. Whilst disobeying the Emperor's decision they still remained loyal to their own mission. Therefore I see no issue with the way they conducted themselves.

 

Perhaps the Rune Priests still operating was another reason the Emperor dispatched the Rune Priests to deal with Magnus, we'll probably never know.