Space Wolves - Council of Nikaea

[Codicier Lucion]

Garro used a ship. Garro battered his way through the Warp to reach with Terra with the message as it was important to him that it be properly recieved.

 

Garro only got there because he was extremely lucky on all accounts and managed to attract the attention of the Imperial Fists. His method was still slower but by the time he arrived his warning was more or less pointless and Horus had declared open war on the Imperium.

 

In my mind Space Wolves are not hypocrites, now before you decry fanboyism and the like please read my reasoning. Space Wolves took issue with Maleficarum or Sorcerors, not with Psykers (Whether they were "blessed by the storm" or not). The Space Wolves were not hypocrites for decrying Magnus and his legion's use of their ability due to the sorcery involved because they Wolves don't invoke sorcery or try to gain power over the warp (which is what the Thousand Sons wanted, I remember the bit where Ahriman commented on the lack of runes for power with Wyrdmake).

 

The Space Wolves are still hypocrites for regarding that the Council of Nikea did not apply to them and the Emperor did at no point sanction their use on Prospero. He sent the Sisters of Silence to help deal with the psychers.

 

Also they sided with Mortarion and seemed very keen to agree with his opinion that all but a few psychers should be hunted down and wiped out, with the few remaining ones kept in chains. Unless it came to their own lot obviously.

I also don't recall them complaining when every astartes psycher was told not to use their powers any more.

 

They did break the law set down by the council of Nikea as far as we are aware. That is if you go by the most recent fluff however and there are multiple versions of the same story. Look at it, the council of Nikea was recounted from who's perspective? Oh yeah, Ahriman, hardly an unbiased force in the universe.

 

Neither are the Space Wolves due to their own bias account of things.

 

So, Space Wolves are not hypocrites however they may well have disobeyed orders but that is how the Wolves operated and have pretty much always operated. Whilst disobeying the Emperor's decision they still remained loyal to their own mission. Therefore I see no issue with the way they conducted themselves.

 

So were the Thousand Sons when you think about it. They disobeyed the Emperor's decision against the use of psychic powers but remained loyal to their mission to help defend the Imperium from all threats, in this case one of their own legions going rogue. They only turned traitor when Russ was convinced to try and wipe out the Thousand Sons than arrest Magnus.

[Gree]

They did break the law set down by the council of Nikea as far as we are aware. That is if you go by the most recent fluff however and there are multiple versions of the same story. Look at it, the council of Nikea was recounted from who's perspective? Oh yeah, Ahriman, hardly an unbiased force in the universe.

 

Ahriman's accont of the Emperor's decree is supported in other sources. For example Rubio's ex-Librarian status, Loken remarking on how psykers are illegal and Dorn's own statements in Flight of the Eisenstein.

 

So, Space Wolves are not hypocrites however they may well have disobeyed orders but that is how the Wolves operated and have pretty much always operated. Whilst disobeying the Emperor's decision they still remained loyal to their own mission. Therefore I see no issue with the way they conducted themselves.

 

Disobeying orders from say the High Lords is one thing, it's another when it's issued by the Emperor of Mankind himself in a rather clear manner. The Wolves swore on oath to this man. He gave them their primarchs, genessed and weapons. Without him there would be no Wolves and no Russ. He knows more then them about the warp. They exist because of his good graces. They swore to serve him. And they disobeyed him.

 

It's a different thing than disobeying the High Lords. If the Wolves are pursuing their own mission above the Emperor (And by extension considering themselves to be above the Emperor's decress and above him) then you have something wrong with the Legion.

 

The Wolves were chosen as executioners for the Emperor because they where highly disciplined and loyal to the Emperor. Or at least susposedly. Ignoring orders and following your own mission is detrimental to that whole image.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Garro used a ship. Garro battered his way through the Warp to reach with Terra with the message as it was important to him that it be properly recieved.

 

Garro only got there because he was extremely lucky on all accounts and managed to attract the attention of the Imperial Fists. His method was still slower but by the time he arrived his warning was more or less pointless and Horus had declared open war on the Imperium.

 

The Space Wolves are still hypocrites for regarding that the Council of Nikea did not apply to them and the Emperor did at no point sanction their use on Prospero. He sent the Sisters of Silence to help deal with the psychers.

 

Arent we supposed to be remaining on topic now?

 

WLK

[Hfran Morkai]

Disobeying orders from say the High Lords is one thing, it's another when it's issued by the Emperor of Mankind himself in a rather clear manner. The Wolves swore on oath to this man. He gave them their primarchs, genessed and weapons. Without him there would be no Wolves and no Russ. He knows more then them about the warp. They exist because of his good graces. They swore to serve him. And they disobeyed him.

 

It's a different thing than disobeying the High Lords. If the Wolves are pursuing their own mission above the Emperor (And by extension considering themselves to be above the Emperor's decress and above him) then you have something wrong with the Legion.

 

The Wolves were chosen as executioners for the Emperor because they where highly disciplined and loyal to the Emperor. Or at least susposedly. Ignoring orders and following your own mission is detrimental to that whole image.

 

They still served the Emperor, an infraction to actually help serve the Emperor and save the galaxy. Who says Russ didn't word his oath in a specific manner, meaning his oath might still be honoured? Oaths are very fickle things, one could swear oath to crown and country yet murder a monarch and still be keeping with his oath. Now what they did went against the Council of Nikea with our facts (Unless you go by early fluff which was just sorcery) but Russ still served, in fact he went to kill his brother in service to the Emperor.

 

If someone could pick a lock to save people's lives but had been told not to (because laws forbid) would you expect them to do it or just shrug and say they shouldn't because the law forbids?

[Gree]

They still served the Emperor, an infraction to actually help serve the Emperor and save the galaxy.

 

''Hey Emperor, we're are ignoring your countless millenia of wisdom to do what we think is right. Don't worry! It will help you! I'm sure we know more than you do!''

 

Who says Russ didn't word his oath in a specific manner, meaning his oath might still be honoured? Oaths are very fickle things, one could swear oath to crown and country yet murder a monarch and still be keeping with his oath.

 

Somehow I doubt the Emperor worded his oath to let people quesiton and ignore his experiance (Which far surpasses anything the Wolves have concerning the warp.)

 

but Russ still served, in fact he went to kill his brother in service to the Emperor.

 

Because he was ordered to by the Emperor because said brother broke his oath because he thought he knew more than the Emp-Oh waitaminute. That sounds familar.........

 

If someone could pick a lock to save people's lives but had been told not to (because laws forbid) would you expect them to do it or just shrug and say they shouldn't because the law forbids?

 

I fully expect them to do it because it's the God-Emperor of Mankind speaking. He knows more than the warp than the Wolves. Unless you are claiming that the Rune Priests are more knowlagable about the warp than the Emperor?

[Codicier Lucion]

They still served the Emperor, an infraction to actually help serve the Emperor and save the galaxy.

 

Actually they technically made things worse. The Sons hadn't joined Horus at this point, and they only allied with the Warmaster after the Wolves had forced them into siding with them by bombing their cities.

When you also think about it, the amount of time they spent fighting the Sons also meant they took longer to return to Terra and allowed Horus more time to besiege the loyalists there before forcing his hand. Not to mention they would have had more battle brothers alive to help fight the Alpha Legion if they ran into them.

 

It actually looks like the Wolves could have better helped save the galaxy if they had stuck with the Emperor's actual orders.

 

Who says Russ didn't word his oath in a specific manner, meaning his oath might still be honoured? Oaths are very fickle things, one could swear oath to crown and country yet murder a monarch and still be keeping with his oath. Now what they did went against the Council of Nikea with our facts (Unless you go by early fluff which was just sorcery) but Russ still served, in fact he went to kill his brother in service to the Emperor.

 

Wait, you're actually suggesting that Russ, one of the most honourbound of all the primarchs, would specifically allow for loopholes in his oaths so he could be exempt from certain decrees and not have the Emperor's will apply to them at times?

As bad as his temper got at times, I don't think Leman Russ would have lowered himself to intentionally weaseling his way out of his own oaths for his own legion's benefit.

[Hfran Morkai]

Interesting that the Emperor's orders were to neutralize the Thousand Sons though, no? Not doing that would have been (also arguably being to a worse degree) denying the Emperor's will with a potential catastrophe to boot. Not having the Rune Priests use their powers would have been even worse for the Wolves, resulting in greater losses of loyal fighting men.

 

And yes, I believe Russ with his intelligence may well have worded his oaths carefully, sure the Emperor beat him in combat but I'm sure he'd still be cautious about offering control of himself and those he commanded to someone else.

[Gree]

Interesting that the Emperor's orders were to neutralize the Thousand Sons though, no? Not doing that would have been (also arguably being to a worse degree) denying the Emperor's will with a potential catastrophe to boot.

 

I'm pretty sure it was to bring Magnus back. With Horus changing those orders to kill. OF course Prospero Burns is vague on the whole matter of the exact orders.

 

Not having the Rune Priests use their powers would have been even worse for the Wolves, resulting in greater losses of loyal fighting men.

 

It doesn't matter. They sould't be questioning the Emperor. And the Wolves had the Sisters, an entire army of blanks to support them.

 

And yes, I believe Russ with his intelligence may well have worded his oaths carefully, sure the Emperor beat him in combat but I'm sure he'd still be cautious about offering control of himself and those he commanded to someone else.

 

I'm not calling Russ stupid, but the Emperor is going to be far cannier and smarter than any Primarch. I can't see Russ getting away with anything the Emperor doesn't want him to.

[Codicier Lucion]

Interesting that the Emperor's orders were to neutralize the Thousand Sons though, no? Not doing that would have been (also arguably being to a worse degree) denying the Emperor's will with a potential catastrophe to boot. Not having the Rune Priests use their powers would have been even worse for the Wolves, resulting in greater losses of loyal fighting men.

 

Yeah, Russ wasn't sent by the Emperor to neutralise or kill the thousand Sons:

The Space Wolves were then ordered by the Emperor to bring Magnus before the him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate.

 

So again, there was no point to use the Rune Priests as they would not be getting into a fight and even if they did they had the Sisters of Silence with them to help nulify any psychic attacks. Psychic blanks tend to be a bit more useful than librarians when it comes to dealing with psychers.

 

This also doesn't answer any of the points above which shows they could have been more useful by sticking to the Emperor's orders.

 

And yes, I believe Russ with his intelligence may well have worded his oaths carefully, sure the Emperor beat him in combat but I'm sure he'd still be cautious about offering control of himself and those he commanded to someone else.

 

Yeah, this sounds more like something Curze would do rather than a viking who served as the Emperor's right hand and as an instrument of his will. The other flaws in this have already been pointed out by Gree.

 

There's a difference between intelligence and full blown self service so you can ignore the decrees of your father, ruler and "god" of humanity.

[Epistolary Exander]

Im sure the Wolves would have worked out their Rune Priests were psykers when their powers stopped working around the Sisters of Silence either at Nikkea or any of the time leading upto & including the battle of Tizca. If the Wolves didnt work this out, then the Wolves arent as smart as they think they are ;).

 

The Wolves were not the only loyal Legion to ignore the Nikkea edict, the First Legion conveniently continued to use their Librarians after the start of the Heresy (Fallen Angels). Its ironic that the 2 legions which pride themselves the most on honour would break the Emperors edict, while the others (apart from the Thousand Sons) obeyed it.

[Perrin]

According to IA (no idea which one it is, possibly the first?):

 

"The Rune Proests of the Space Wolves are one notable exception to the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, a comment that can be applied to the entire Chapter. [Other particularly noteworthy exceptions include the Librarians of the Crimson Shades, the White Scars and the Novamarines] While the role that Rune Priests play within the Chapter is not so different from the traditional Codex role, it is in the methods they employ where they differ significantly. They act as record keepers, much like Codex Librarians, though they memorise their histories in great sagas rather than in written form. They act as advisors to the Great Wolf as well, counselling him in times of war. The particular psychic powers and practises they employ, however, are based on those of the traditional shamans of their home world, Fenris, and as such are very different to the Codex form. Young skalds are taught the complex and arcane lore of their people by the older Rune Priests, their methods having remained unchanged for countless centuries. The Rune Priests are independent and ferocious warriors, wise and deliberate in their methods and rituals. They cast runes to predict the ebb and flow of events to come, the runes often carved from the ones or teeth of one of the various totem animals of the Fenrisians. The teeth of the great wolves that prowl the icy world are noted particularly for their power.

The Rune Priest holds a different attitude towards psychic powers than that of the Codex Space Marine Chapters. Where typical Codex Librarians hold to the belief that their power is a manipulation of the pure essence of the warp, the Rune Priest believes that his power comes from the living energy of Fenris, as well as from within. The innate power of Fenris can be channelled into his totems by the Rune Priest, so that he may always carry this power with him wherever he may be within the galaxy"

 

A few points to consider: This same article has a picture of a White Scars Librarian "Storm Seer", implying that Storm Seer is just another name for Librarian.

Another thing is that the Rune Priests BELIEVE that their power is different from a Librarians power, which to me just sounds like hypocrisy and wishful thinking. But it does say that the power they use comes from totems they have infused with the power of Fenris, and that they follow the teachings of the shamans of ancient Fenris.

Maybe the Fenris shamans are like the shamans of Ancient Terra that sacrificed themselves to create the Emperor. It would also be interesting to see if Rune Priests could use their powers without their totems, cause this would prove that they do use the power of Fenris, whatever that power may be.

[Gree]

A few points to consider: This same article has a picture of a White Scars Librarian "Storm Seer", implying that Storm Seer is just another name for Librarian.

Another thing is that the Rune Priests BELIEVE that their power is different from a Librarians power, which to me just sounds like hypocrisy and wishful thinking. But it does say that the power they use comes from totems they have infused with the power of Fenris, and that they follow the teachings of the shamans of ancient Fenris.

Maybe the Fenris shamans are like the shamans of Ancient Terra that sacrificed themselves to create the Emperor. It would also be interesting to see if Rune Priests could use their powers without their totems, cause this would prove that they do use the power of Fenris, whatever that power may be.

 

According to Prospero Burns the Rune Priests are well aware of the warp and their own nature as psykers.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Yes. Rune Priests are their body of psychic Marines within the Legion, which is the basic definition of a Librarius. If you want to be more picky, the Librarians also maintain the records of the Chapter, which the Rune Priests do as well. As Gree states, we've seen from the White Scars that a Legion can have 'Librarians' without calling them that, as seen by the Storm Seers. Like the Rune Priests, these aren't called Librarians, but they still come under the Nikaea Edict.

 

So what you're saying is that the Space Wolves don't actually have something called a Librarius department. They have something you'd like to call a Librarius department, but it's never called that in the books, has different practices, and no legion that isn't corrupted by chaos ever complains that it's active after the edict. The fact that you try to slap a label on doesn't mean that the label fits.

 

If you could offer some explanation of why no one except members of a Tzeench-corrupted legion complain at all about the Wolf's alleged violation of the edict when thier use of Rune Priests was open and witnessed by forces that would report to the Emperor like Custodes, it might go somewhere. But it's clear that people in the 30k books don't act as though your label fits, so the easiest explanation is 'that labeling is wrong'.

 

It's a ban on the practice of psychic ability within the Legions, most commonly seen in organisations called a Librarius, although some Legions had different names for it, such as Storm Seers or Rune Priests.

 

That's not what the text in the book says. If you're going to invent stuff entirely on your own, there's not much point in discussion, because I can just start making stuff up too, like the fact that the Nikea Edict said 'nope, Caerolion is wrong" on line five.

 

I'll ask you to read what the Emperor said once again. All psychic marines were to be returned to battle companies, and never to use psychic powers ever again. Even if we do take your argument as truth, the fact remains that the Wolves wilfully broke the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. The Emperor outlawed all psychic ability. He did not state "and they shall only use psychic powers in this certain way". He stated "never again employ psychic powers".

 

I've read it and quoted it. As I said before, there is no quote from an actual book stating a ban on all psychic ability, you've invented it yourself. It's very strange that you're saying something contrary to the quoted material and at the same time telling me to read the quoted material. The edict very specifically and clearly only bans the former members of librarius departments from using powers, it doesn't ban all psychic powers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So what you're saying is that the Space Wolves don't actually have something called a Librarius department. They have something you'd like to call a Librarius department, but it's never called that in the books, has different practices, and no legion that isn't corrupted by chaos ever complains that it's active after the edict. The fact that you try to slap a label on doesn't mean that the label fits.

 

If you could offer some explanation of why no one except members of a Tzeench-corrupted legion complain at all about the Wolf's alleged violation of the edict when thier use of Rune Priests was open and witnessed by forces that would report to the Emperor like Custodes, it might go somewhere. But it's clear that people in the 30k books don't act as though your label fits, so the easiest explanation is 'that labeling is wrong'.

So what you're saying is that the White Scars don't actually have something called a Librarius department. They have something you'd like to call a Librarius department, but it's never called that in the books, has different practices, and no legion that isn't corrupted by chaos ever complains that it's active after the edict. The fact that you try to slap a label on doesn't mean that the label fits.

 

If you could offer some explanation of why no one except members of a Tzeench-corrupted legion complain at all about the Scars's alleged violation of the edict when thier use of Storm Seers was open and witnessed by forces that would report to the Emperor like Custodes, it might go somewhere. But it's clear that people in the 30k books don't act as though your label fits, so the easiest explanation is 'that labeling is wrong'.

 

We also have the fact that Valdor, the leader of the Custodes, wanted Magnus dead enough to go behind the Emperors back and twist his orders, so I find it entirely possible that Valdor accepted the "lesser evil" in the process of destroying Magnus. Valdor was essentially the proxy of the Emperor during the destruction of Prospero, and he demonstrated that he was entirely willing to go against the will of the Emperor in the course of his personal vendetta.

 

And once more, for everyone to hear. The White Scars did not have a Librarium, they had an Order. They did not have Librarians, they had Storm Seers. They had different practices, and no Legion complained about their restoration after the Heresy. Strangely enough, and entirely contradictory to your argument, they are affected by the Nikaea Edict. If your argument were true, the White Scars would not be affected, and yet we know they were. They had the exact same "immunities" that you claim the Wolves have, and yet that doesn't get them out of following the Edict. It's very strange that you're saying something contrary to the quoted material and at the same time telling me to read the quoted material, to use your words.

 

The edict very specifically and clearly only bans the former members of librarius departments from using powers, it doesn't ban all psychic powers.

Except that it clearly doesn't, as seen by the White Scars. They are canon proof that an organisation did not need to actually be called a Librarius or its members to be called Librarians to be outlawed.

Every other Legion (well, except the Dark Angels, apparently...) accepted that the organisation that was outlawed didn't necessarily have to actually be called a Librarium, just like every Legion has its own quirks regarding organisation and naming. A squad is a squad regardless of whether it's called a pack, cohort, claw or anything else. Similarly, the White Scars show that a Librarian is a Librarian, even if it's only called a Storm Seer, or a Rune Priest.

[Lord Ragnarok]

This is on the eternal merry go round of atomic doom. In terms of factual data I think we've exhausted that information and everything else is subjectivity and speculation. Closing the thread. If new info arises from new texts, a new thread can be started. Thanks all for keeping the debate passionate but with very few personal attacks.

 

Closing.