nemesis force weapons against daemons

[Warsmith IV]

Another potential 'take all comers' problem is that we suck in close-combat. We are heavily reliant on mauling enemy units with our firepower, to swing close-combat in our favour. Aside from weak cannon fodder, lone monsters or characters, our limited number of S4 force weapon attacks don't scare people that much. Even expensive MeQ armies will often outnumber us by a 1/3rd, more if you try and build a TDA/Purifier core army.

 

I play an all Paladin army, and I have no idea where you got the idea we suck in close combat. Paladins with swords get a 4++ save in combat, or a 2++ if you shell out for a warding stave. On a large unit a banner then bumps them up to 3 attacks each. Yes, I'm usually heavily outnumbered (once against Chaos Marines I had 11 models vs. about 50 in a 1750 pt game, still won) but it's in combat that I do the most damage.

 

What I would say is, Nemesis Force Swords are wasted on power armoured units. I don't have any myself, but if I did they would all have halberds/falchions/stave/hammer. Swords on Paladins and Termies however are awesome useful.

[nurglez]

And the new sanctuary is nasty to most daemons, as they dont really get assault grenades (unless slanesh I think...).

 

The old GK were way to tailored to play daemons. GK vs daemons should have meant a win for GK, but they suffered vs other armies.

The new GK are much better vs other armies, and still decent vs daemons, a trade off I think most people will be happy with.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I play an all Paladin army, and I have no idea where you got the idea we suck in close combat. Paladins with swords get a 4++ save in combat, or a 2++ if you shell out for a warding stave. On a large unit a banner then bumps them up to 3 attacks each. Yes, I'm usually heavily outnumbered (once against Chaos Marines I had 11 models vs. about 50 in a 1750 pt game, still won) but it's in combat that I do the most damage.

 

I mean in general. Of course Paladins are fantastic (WS5 is a huge boost), but as for the rest of the army, only Purifiers are any good (and they're kinda specialised towards hordes and fire support duties). Regular Terminators are pretty meh, and Strike squads are Tactical-squad bad in close-combat (sure they're power weapons, but you usually end up causing only 2-3 wounds). I would never buy a warding stave, except maybe on a Librarian (and only if you genuinely had no better use for the points, which with Knights you should do). Swords are meh, take halberds and reduce the incoming damage in the first place (or wipe them out). Less enemy dudes mean less damage, better than relying on a slightly better invul that you'll still fail roughly half the time.

 

What I would say is, Nemesis Force Swords are wasted on power armoured units. I don't have any myself, but if I did they would all have halberds/falchions/stave/hammer. Swords on Paladins and Termies however are awesome useful.

 

You do realise how much Strike squads pay for their nemesis upgrades right? Swords are free, and seeing as Strikes suck in combat, expensively upgrading them for it is a bad idea. For Purifiers, I would do it (because you can arm 5 of them with halberds and one with a hammer for the price of a master-crafted hammer in a Strike squad), and Purgators shouldn't be in your list anyway (Interceptors can work, but even then I'd avoid splashing out on nemesis upgrades).

For Paladins (I don't use Terminators), halberds and hammers are your two best options.

 

And the new sanctuary is nasty to most daemons, as they dont really get assault grenades (unless slanesh I think...).

 

Not as bad as before, where they'd just rebound off an invisible wall and you'd laugh and shoot them to death. But yeah, Bloodletters hate you for it :D

 

The old GK were way to tailored to play daemons. GK vs daemons should have meant a win for GK, but they suffered vs other armies.

The new GK are much better vs other armies, and still decent vs daemons, a trade off I think most people will be happy with.

 

Like I said before, I'm not sure this is right. Sure, 'Sanctuary' was broken as all hell, and 'Rites of Exorcism' did for free what we now have to cast 'Sanctuary' to do (and of course, our Grandmaster packed the ultimate character/monster removing weapon in the entire game). I still think we are more challenging now. Greater variety, psycannons are even nastier than before, on average our price has dropped, we have new units that scare Daemons (Dreadknight etc). Not to mention we're highly mobile now, with Rhinos and Stormravens (ie no longer trapped with only Landraiders).

[Darkmagi]

You do realize how much Strike squads pay for their nemesis upgrades right? Swords are free, and seeing as Strikes suck in combat, expensively upgrading them for it is a bad idea. For Purifiers, I would do it (because you can arm 5 of them with halberds and one with a hammer for the price of a master-crafted hammer in a Strike squad), and Purgators shouldn't be in your list anyway (Interceptors can work, but even then I'd avoid splashing out on nemesis upgrades).

For Paladins (I don't use Terminators), halberds and hammers are your two best options.

 

There's one thing I would like to point out with the comparison of strikes to purifiers with regards to the cost of upgrades... a single purifier with a halberd costs 26 points for fearless(a blessing and a curse) and 1 extra attack. a striker costs 25 points with a halberd and has and they shall know no fear (usually much better then fearless) and 1 less attack its truly a 1 point difference between the 2, and i don't think there's really a major, clear winner which is better with upgrades, it really comes down to personal choice.... and personally i find the strikes to do the job better over all then the purifiers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

There's one thing I would like to point out with the comparison of strikes to purifiers with regards to the cost of upgrades... a single purifier with a halberd costs 26 points for fearless(a blessing and a curse) and 1 extra attack. a striker costs 25 points with a halberd and has and they shall know no fear (usually much better then fearless) and 1 less attack its truly a 1 point difference between the 2, and i don't think there's really a major, clear winner which is better with upgrades, it really comes down to personal choice.... and personally i find the strikes to do the job better over all then the purifiers.

 

What? My interpretation is;

 

I haz a Purifier. With a halberd, he is 26pts. He packs 'Fearless' (meaning no Pinning, or falling back), he has 2A at I6, 'Cleansing Flame', access to twice the number of special weapons

I haz a Striker. With a halberd, he is 25pts. He has 'ATSKNF' (meaning he takes 'No Retreat' in the same way as the Purifier if he's caught in a Sweeping Advance, but he can still break and run from unfavourable combat, plus he auto-rallies next turn if no enemy is within 6"), he has 1A at I6, and 'Warp Quake' (which is a highly situational power, great when people Deepstrike near you, utterly useless every other day).

Now tell me, which one of those is more scary to you as an opponent? The guy who is twice as effective in close-combat ('Cleansing Flame' is somewhat hard to quantify as it depends on how well-armoured or not your opponent is), and won't run? Or the fresh-faced new guy who still doesn't understand the whole 'chop their legs off' part of combat (as he's probably still enjoying the whole 'automatic micro-rocket launcher attached to my wrist' powertrip)?

 

Purifiers are far better as an assault unit, because their 'Cleansing Flame', 2A base and dirt-cheap nemesis upgrades (if we further the analysis, hammers are half-price on Purifiers). 'Fearless' keeps them in the fight, which is where you want them (you don't want them breaking and running so the enemy can shoot them up in their turn). They make excellent assault troops (outpacing Terminators and comparing favourably to Paladins), and when made scoring, they are a daunting prospect to shift from an objective.

 

Strikers on the other hand are more 'tactical'. They're not as powerful as Purifiers, so if they are in a bad combat, they would prefer to run away. By contrast to Purifiers, who stomp your dudemanz to ash and ask for more, Strikers prefer to shoot things to death, as they bring the most Knights for your points in the codex (everyone else is more expensive per model).

 

Strikers in close-combat = doing it wrong. You bring them to take objectives (regardless of Crowe/Grandmaster shenanigans, I think any Knight army should have two Strike squads as core) and shoot things to death.

[jeffersonian000]

Fearless sucks on small units, due to No Retreat wounds having a strong chance of wiping the units. On large squads like Ork Mobs, Fearless is awesome. Personsally, having played pure GK for a number of years, I'd say Fearless is a value neutral ability while ATSKNF is a value added ability.

 

SJ

[Morollan]

So Nemesis force weapons are force weapon, so they ignore armour save and you make a ld test when you first wound to see if they inflict instant death.

 

Daemons all have Inv. saves, so they get their save, and are immune to instant death. So the weapons then just hit daemons like a normal weapon.

 

Can I just go back to this point and clarify something? Does the 'LD test or die' power only apply to Daemons, who are automatically immune to it due to Eternal Warrior? If so, isn't it utterly pointless?

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, the Daemonbane rule bypasses Eternal Warrior, as it removes the model from play without causing Instant Death. And since its not a function of Force Weapons nor a psychic power, it bypasses the 2++ save they can get with a specific gift.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Fearless sucks on small units, due to No Retreat wounds having a strong chance of wiping the units. On large squads like Ork Mobs, Fearless is awesome. Personsally, having played pure GK for a number of years, I'd say Fearless is a value neutral ability while ATSKNF is a value added ability.

 

That assuming you lose combat. As I was saying before, Purifiers win pretty hard in that category, so by definition if you're losing combat with them you're already screwed (especially with combat squads). Anyway, the solution is easy, don't try and MSU with Purifiers, take big squads and remove the psycannon manz as casualties.

Hmmm, you've got me thinking now...so on Paladins, the Apothecary is actually a sweet deal, because he makes it even harder to kill them with combat resolution wounds.

 

ATSKNF isn't automatically better all the time, it's more situational. It has it's drawbacks too y'know (falling back when you need them to tie someone up, able to be Pinned, vulnerable to a variety of Morale tests or Leadership modifiers).

'Fearless' is highly reliable (they never test for Pinning, Morale etc) with an obvious drawback if your unit is getting hit hard (and more the point, 'No Retreat' wounds need to 3 more on average to force a casualty against power armour saves, more vs Paladin TDA, so on balance it's hard to argue 'No Retreat' wounds are really that much of a problem).

I like that Strike squads can run away from losing combats, or retreat from enemy fire, but with Purifiers I want them advancing into combat and drawing enemy attention (same for Paladins). So, the way their rules are set up is fine for me. 'ATSKNF' for the newbies who are still learning the ropes of 'jab your sword through their entrails', 'Fearless' for the veterans and heroes of the Chapter who just steamroller enemy units.

 

Can I just go back to this point and clarify something? Does the 'LD test or die' power only apply to Daemons, who are automatically immune to it due to Eternal Warrior? If so, isn't it utterly pointless?

 

Nah, I'll break it down for you;

 

There is a rule in 40k called 'Instant Death'

There is another rule called 'Eternal Warrior', which means that if your model with 'Eternal Warrior' suffers Instant Death for any reason, they instead only take a single wound, instead of losing all their wounds.

Nemesis force weapons have the 'Daemonbane' rule, which work as force weapons. In addition, if a Daemon suffers an unsaved wound from a nemesis force weapon of any type, they must pass a Leadership test. If they fail this Leadership test, they are removed from the table as a casualty.

 

Therefore, the 'Eternal Warrior' rule that Daemons have doesn't matter one bit against nemesis force weapons. It prevents the psychic test to 'fry brain' from inflicting Instant Death, but they must still make a Leadership test for every unsaved wound they take from a nemesis force weapon. And, if and when they fail one of these tests, they are removed from the table as a casualty.

[Morollan]

Actually, the Daemonbane rule bypasses Eternal Warrior, as it removes the model from play without causing Instant Death. And since its not a function of Force Weapons nor a psychic power, it bypasses the 2++ save they can get with a specific gift.

 

SJ

 

Thanks. I was basically asking whether Daemonbane inflicted Instant Death and you've made its clear that it doesn't so EW doesn't apply.