Shared Pitfalls

[Atlas VOTE]

Its clear that each legion that fell to chaos had some sort of predisposition, a vulnerability to corruption, often exemplified in their primarch.

So why did some legions fall and others didn't? It seems to me that Ferrus Manus could have fallin into a the same situation that Lorgar found himself (promoting a faith contrary to the Emperors, though not as extreme, Manus's relationship with Mars and machine-cult like characteristics could have, especially at that time, been seen as heresy). The space wolves were just as susceptible to khorne as the world eaters.

 

Now I know part of it is back-writing, with GW filling in gaps in the fluff timeline, but wasn't Guilliman just as prone to hubris and pride as Horus?

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

I completely agree that each primarch and each Legion had unique strengths and weaknesses.

For example Lorgar and his Word Bearers had incredible faith in the Emperor. However that zeal also led them to Chaos.

 

As you suggested, Guilliman also had great pride and probably could have fallen to Chaos much like Horus.

I think it greatly depended on circumstance and how willing they were to be swayed from the Emperor.

Leman Russ(and his Legion) appeared to be unbreakably loyal. Even if the Emperor ordered the destruction of the Space Wolves it's possible that they would have accepted their fate. Or they could have turned to turned similarly to the Thousand Sons. Horus was completely loyal to the Emperor, but he was decieved.

I think you are completely right that other primarchs could have turned had things been different.

 

Imagine Leman Russ's reaction if Fenris rebelled against him...

He might have been in similar shoes to Perturabo...

[Lord_Caerolion]

If you want a good look at some Traitor Loyalists (if that makes sense) just have a look at the Dornian Heresy.

[DV8]

Honestly that's like saying Bob likes Vanilla ice cream but hates Mango ice cream, while Fred likes Mango ice cream but hates Vanilla ice cream. Why couldn't they both like Vanilla, or both like Mango? Bob could have just as easily liked Mango instead, just as Fred could have easily liked Vanilla. There was potential for every Primarch to fall to Chaos. What made it easier for some and an impossibility for others is a combination if environment, perspective (based on past and current situations, as well as philosophical/cultural), upbringing and character/personality.

 

 

DV8

[Legatus]

Now I know part of it is back-writing, with GW filling in gaps in the fluff timeline, but wasn't Guilliman just as prone to hubris and pride as Horus?

No. That should be apparent in how they were treating their subjects, the poeple they conquered/liberated, and the other Legions.

[Atlas VOTE]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

[Olis]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

 

That scene is told from a Word Bearer's POV, isn't it? The prose was very subjective about the issue iirc.

[Ubermensch Commander]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

 

Strongly disagree.

Lorgar was having a big Vader "nooooo" moment and raves and rants about how he can see Guilliman enjoying it, even though no one else can.

As Olisredan points out, it was very much a POV shot.

Guilliman handled himself with his usual stoicism, Lorgar with his usual "zeal."

 

All the Primarchs had the potential to fall to Chaos, in theory. The Dornian Heresy takes an excellent look at how things may have unfolded differently. In the regular Heresy though, those that fell to Chaos generally did have exploitable traits used by Chaos. Such as Angron and Night Haunter being BAT :cussE CRAZY.

[Legatus]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

By the author's own admission, the scene was not meant to be "pretty obvious" at all. It was deliberately written so that the reader could read both into it (Guilliman was a jerk towards Lorgar <=> Guilliman was professional and Lorgar was throwing a tantrum).

 

One of them would later turn against the Emperor and start worshiping evil space gods, so I know which one I am giving more credibility.

[Gree]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

 

No it's not, Guilliman showed zero emotion at all and kept his responses to Lorgar curt and professional. That's the opposite of taking enjoyment I would say.

[tiberium40k]

@Legatus (First Heretic Spoiler Alert)

 

Near the beginning of the book when the emperor and Guilliman confront lorgar it is pretty obvious that Guilliman is enjoying it.

 

Although others have already replied to this, I would really like to know why people think Guilliman is enjoying it? There is nothing in his behaviour that would suggest it, only Lorgar`s rant.

[Legatus]

I... I think that's enough replies on that matter. :) I already thought me quoting it a third time was a bit too much...

 

Atlas, please don't interprete this as everyone "jumping on you" for your statements. As you can see from the posts I linked, the author (A D-B ) meant for that passage to be interpretable in different ways. And especially Guilliman is a divisive character.

 

When A D-B had Lorgar say "I can see it in your eyes that you are enjoying this, Guilliman, even if the others cannot. You allways hated me" it was obvious that this would be read in different ways. While the Guilliman fanboy will think "huh, what is Lorgar rambling on about? Guilliman is perfectly calm. Lorgar is just mad for being told off by the Emperor", the Guilliman hater will think "hah, I knew Guilliman was a smug jerk".

[tiberium40k]

I... I think that's enough replies on that matter. :)

 

:P

[Legatus]

On topic:

 

"The Chaos Gods continued to whisper to the Primarchs from the Warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to such temptations. The characters of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them would eventually fail that test."

- 5th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 12. (the text was originally from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos)

 

 

Specifically about Guilliman, there has been one comment on him not turning, as compared to Horus, in "Angels of Darkness". That passage references an old Quote that is attributed to Roboute Guilliman:

 

"They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self aggrandisement. They will be bright stars in the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of man. So it shall be for a thousand times a thusand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh.

Roboute Guilliman, Codex Astartes"

- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 4

 

 

And this is the passage from Angels of Darkness by Gavin Thorpe:

 

"Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch? It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor."

 

Now, those words are spoken by a captured Fallen Angel who is being interrogated by the Dark Angels, but the Fallen Angel is convinced that he and the other Fallen Angels were actually acting in the interest of the Legion and the Emperor, and that it had been the Dark Angels under Jonson that were the traitors. (Is is wrong in that conviction, just to be clear about that.)

[Captain Idaho]

Without changing their character, I cannot see the following Primarchs ever turning:

 

Sanguinius - He was definitely noble, humble and incorruptable. Even turned down his closest brother when offered.

 

Ferrus Manus - Fiercely loyal and people seemed to skim over his humility in Fulgrim. He also turned away his closest brother when approached to be a turn coat. It's worth noting he was not a worshipper of unclean religion, or the machine, at least not with the information we have available.

 

The rest I can barely see ever turning, as Guilliman was particularly loyal, Dorn came to the Emperor to share in his ideals etc. Maybe in the wrong circumstances but that might require some big changes.

 

Only Russ I can see turning, and that is because he might have lost his temper and struck a brother Primarch, igniting a war and thus inviting censorship. But that never happened, which shows we give him too little credit in his capacity of controlling his temper...

[Beef]

Only Russ I can see turning, and that is because he might have lost his temper and struck a brother Primarch, igniting a war and thus inviting censorship. But that never happened, which shows we give him too little credit in his capacity of controlling his temper...

 

 

And if Russ turned he would have turned against the Imperiam and not the emperor.

[Sons of Horus]

Many of the traitor Primarchs had certain events or circumstances that added to their fall. The weakness is only part of it. For example Guilliman may have had about as much pride and hubris as Horus but he did not bear the burden and responsibilities of being Warmaster and being so much closer to the emperor. Horus was made commander of the entire armed forces of the Imperium which obviously put a lot of weight on his shoulders plus the fact that he and the emperor were so close (being the first and only Primarch for many years) then the emperor suddenly left him 'alone'. That coupled with his pride may have made him more susceptible to the forces of Chaos.

Another example would be Russ and Angron. The emperor allowed Russ' men to become astartes while he let Angron's men all die. Also Russ was not permanently suffering due to cybernetic implants in his brain.

 

at least this is how i see it.

[Captain Idaho]

And if Russ turned he would have turned against the Imperiam and not the emperor.

 

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Russ is fiercely loyal and I think people forget he is more than a mere berserker.

 

Did have a think actually, and I decided that ALL Primarchs could turn due to how Fulgrim and Horus turned; Daemonic/Warp influence. They essentially aren't themselves.

 

The only one I give credit to being immune to such a thing is Sanguinius. He is pyschic enough to see the influence and therefore understand the threat. The other psychic Primarches seem to have fallen to Chaos so they didn't see it coming!

 

Many of the traitor Primarchs had certain events or circumstances that added to their fall. The weakness is only part of it. For example Guilliman may have had about as much pride and hubris as Horus but he did not bear the burden and responsibilities of being Warmaster and being so much closer to the emperor. Horus was made commander of the entire armed forces of the Imperium which obviously put a lot of weight on his shoulders plus the fact that he and the emperor were so close (being the first and only Primarch for many years) then the emperor suddenly left him 'alone'. That coupled with his pride may have made him more susceptible to the forces of Chaos.

 

Whilst you are correct certain events and cirucmstance conspired to turn the Traitors Primarches, your example is flawed. Guilliman actually took over the title of Sumpreme Commander of the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces after the loss of his father, proving he could handle the role. And there is no evidence Guilliman would have fallen to pride or hubris, as otherwise such things would have resulted in his temptation already.

 

Like I said above, the influence of the Warp and Daemons are needed to make most of the Loyalist Primarchs turn, since they didn't have the mental breakdowns required to be exploited by Horus. Notice Fulgrim seems to be the only Primarch to have turned traitor without any serious psycological problems, and that was done purely because of the sword and it's daemonic influence.

[Epistolary Exander]

And if Russ turned he would have turned against the Imperiam and not the emperor.

 

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Russ is fiercely loyal and I think people forget he is more than a mere berserker.

 

Did have a think actually, and I decided that ALL Primarchs could turn due to how Fulgrim and Horus turned; Daemonic/Warp influence. They essentially aren't themselves.

 

The only one I give credit to being immune to such a thing is Sanguinius. He is pyschic enough to see the influence and therefore understand the threat. The other psychic Primarches seem to have fallen to Chaos so they didn't see it coming!

 

Many of the traitor Primarchs had certain events or circumstances that added to their fall. The weakness is only part of it. For example Guilliman may have had about as much pride and hubris as Horus but he did not bear the burden and responsibilities of being Warmaster and being so much closer to the emperor. Horus was made commander of the entire armed forces of the Imperium which obviously put a lot of weight on his shoulders plus the fact that he and the emperor were so close (being the first and only Primarch for many years) then the emperor suddenly left him 'alone'. That coupled with his pride may have made him more susceptible to the forces of Chaos.

 

Whilst you are correct certain events and cirucmstance conspired to turn the Traitors Primarches, your example is flawed. Guilliman actually took over the title of Sumpreme Commander of the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces after the loss of his father, proving he could handle the role. And there is no evidence Guilliman would have fallen to pride or hubris, as otherwise such things would have resulted in his temptation already.

 

From what I am aware Guilliman was never in command of the Imperial Armed Forces & that there were only ever 3 individuals who claim to have done so. They are the in chronological order:

1) The Emperor (Until the parade on Ullanor).

2) Horus, The Warmaster (After Ullanor - until his betrayal at Istvaan 3).

3) Rogal Dorn, The Emperors Praetorian (After Terra recieved news of The Warmasters betrayal at Isvaan - until the Emperor descended the Golden Throne to challenge Horus).

1) The Emperor (After he descended from the Golden Throne to challenge Horus, until now).

 

From the sources we have the Emperor did not specifiacally designate which of his loyal sons should be incharge of the Imperial Forces before he was interred into the Golden Throne. It is because of this that the Primarchs bickered & almost went to war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes as proposed by Roboute Guilliman. Yes Guilliman undoubtedly had a huge influence over Imperial Forces in the aftermath of the Heresy because of 2 reasons;

1) He had control of by the far the largest amount of surviving loyalist Astartes.

2) He was lobbying to fundamentally change the organisation of all Imperial armed forces to prevent any single person again having the power that could threaten the entire Imperium.

 

In order for Guilliman to ensure that the fulfilled the reorganisation of the Imperium to ensure no single person ever had the power to challenge the Imperium, he himself would have to give up his position of being in control of the largest body of marines. He actually did do this by breaking up his own legion into Chapters during the second founding. How could Guilliman have successfully persuaded the rest of Imperium to break up their organisations to prevent another Heresy if he himself took the very role of the arch heretic Horus had? The answer he couldnt & so he didnt bother wasting his time down that route. Guilliman instead used his shrewd political awareness to ensure his will was enacted without atleast trying to be the Imperium's War Leader.

[Captain Idaho]

Sorry but you are wrong. Since at least 2nd edition GW have consistenlty quoted Guilliman as the only man to ever have controlled te entirety of the Imperium's armed forces. Check Codex Ultramarines for oldest source, but it is repeated in Codex Space Marines 5th eidition I believe.

[Gree]

Sorry but you are wrong. Since at least 2nd edition GW have consistenlty quoted Guilliman as the only man to ever have controlled te entirety of the Imperium's armed forces. Check Codex Ultramarines for oldest source, but it is repeated in Codex Space Marines 5th eidition I believe.

 

The problem with that statement is that it is obviously contridicted by Horus's positon as Warmaster and the Emperor positon as..................well the Emperor. Guilliman can't have been the only man to control the entire military when the Emperor and Horus obviously did?

 

I can accept Guilliman as the reformer, but it seems odd that he made the chapter reforms to reduce the power held by a single man and then became the de-facto Warmaster after the Heresy. I can't see Chapters like the Space Wolves following Guilliman's orders. I can't see Russ for example recognising Guilliman as his boss.

[DV8]

One can make the suggestion/assumption) that following the Heresy, the Ultramarines Legion (being the most numerous of the remaining loyalists) being responsible for defending and holding the Imperium together, strategic and tactical control is yielded to Guilliman for his knowledge and experience in logistics. We can see past precedence in the 3rd War for Armageddon, where command of the loyal Imperial Forces were yielded to Commissar Yarrick, despite any lack of formal acknowledgement of such rank or power.

 

Using his influence (political and military), Guilliman then goes on to break down and divide control of the Imperium's armed forces so that no one individual will ever again wield the power to threaten the galaxy.

 

Is Guilliman officially recognized as the Warmaster? No, but the majority of the Imperium yields to his influence on the basis that they need unity to survive, and the only individual capable of unifying them is Guilliman (being one of the Primarchs, the Emperor's chosen sons). There were only a handful of other individuals who (I believe) would have had the ambition, experience, charisma, and ability to hold the Imperium together following the wake of the Heresy:

 

Malcador the Sigillite - he died on the Golden Thrown so that the Emperor could face Horus

Sanguinius - dead by Horus' hand

Rogal Dorn - stricken with grief at the death of the Emperor and the pain of his failure; emotionally compromised

Constantin Valdor - as personal praetorian to the Emperor, Valdor would know most of all (next to Malcador) the workings of the Imperium and all the various "departments"

Lion 'el Jonson - maybe, he's not the same logistical leader Guilliman is, but he certainly has the ambition (per Tales of Heresy, suggested); however, his Legion lacks the necessary strength to challenge Guilliman and the Ultramarines if it came down to conflict

 

In order for Guilliman to ensure that the fulfilled the reorganisation of the Imperium to ensure no single person ever had the power to challenge the Imperium, he himself would have to give up his position of being in control of the largest body of marines.

 

You are correct; as Guilliman is generally recognized as the unofficial supreme commander of the Imperium's forces, he then proceeds to establish a division of power and surrenders ultimate control of not only the Imperium but of his Legion, breaking them down into small Chapters to form the Second Founding.

 

 

DV8

[Legatus]

The problem with that statement is that it is obviously contridicted by Horus's positon as Warmaster and the Emperor positon as..................well the Emperor. Guilliman can't have been the only man to control the entire military when the Emperor and Horus obviously did?

I think I read only recently, in a veeery old source (Rogue Trader era) how "Horus had been given command over five entire Legions. Those were the Legions already with him on Istvaan V, where then four additional Legions chose to side with him.

 

Either way, the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos mentions how Horus had been given command over the Crusade while the Emperor returned to terra. So he might not have been in command of the entire Imperial armed forces, but only those forces committed to the Crusade. After all, the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines does state that Guilliman was the first man to ever be in command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces.

 

 

I can accept Guilliman as the reformer, but it seems odd that he made the chapter reforms to reduce the power held by a single man and then became the de-facto Warmaster after the Heresy.

I think it was more a case of him first becoming commander over all Imperial armed forces (during the scouring) and then reforming the Legions into Chapters (Second Founding), rather than the other way around.

[Gree]

The problem with that statement is that it is obviously contridicted by Horus's positon as Warmaster and the Emperor positon as..................well the Emperor. Guilliman can't have been the only man to control the entire military when the Emperor and Horus obviously did?

I think I read only recently, in a veeery old source (Rogue Trader era) how "Horus had been given command over five entire Legions. Those were the Legions already with him on Istvaan V, where then four additional Legions chose to side with him.

 

Either way, the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos mentions how Horus had been given command over the Crusade while the Emperor returned to terra. So he might not have been in command of the entire Imperial armed forces, but only those forces committed to the Crusade. After all, the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines does state that Guilliman was the first man to ever be in command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the Emperor also would naturally have command over the entire Imperial armed forces (As well as everything else).

 

But the Black Legion IA implies it's more than just the Crusade forces.

 

The Emperor sent word that henceforth they would be known as the Sons of Horus, in honour of their Primarch. Horus himself was given the title Warmaster - now officially supreme commander of the Emperor's forces.

 

Plus the Heresy novels treat Horus as supreme commander of basically everybody if I recall correctly.

 

Honestly? It seems to me that the Guilliman being Supreme Commander bit is part of the other Second Edition stuff that is being retconned away by the new Heresy novels.

[Legatus]

That doesn't change the fact that the Emperor also would naturally have command over the entire Imperial armed forces (As well as everything else).

Maybe the Emperor is not considered a mere "man". Either that or the Emperor never was in command of the Entire Imperium, since he had given command over to Horus before the full Imperium had been established.

 

 

Honestly? It seems to me that the Guilliman being Supreme Commander bit is part of the other Second Edition stuff that is being retconned away by the new Heresy novels.

That may well be the case. In 2nd Edition, Guilliman was said to haven become commander of all Imperial armed forces after the Heresy. While lately, newer sources describe how Dorn had been appointed commander of the defenders by Malcador. No wonder younger generations of Imperial Fists players question the legitimacy of Guilliman to reform the Imperial military, considering how Merrett is handling that part of the background.