GK anti-armor: what are my options vs AV14?

[thade]

Subject line says it all: GK units can't take melta guns. Admittedly my marine chapter fields only a few of these when I play them, but they're worth their weight in gold. So far as I can tell, Psycannons (due to Rending) seem to be the primary option. Maybe an old-fashioned "mini-purg" squad or two are in order? Otherwise it's lascannons on LRs and melee options (Dreads and Dread Knights). I suppose a teleporter pack DK might work for AV14, but the thing is going to take a LOT of fire.

 

The goal here is pure GK list, i.e. no Vindicares or Inquisitors/Henchmen.

[Shyft]

At Range:

 

Psycannons for Rending, needs 2+ to penetrate an LR on the rending roll.

Autocannons on Dreadnoughts w/ Psybolt Ammo; glances on a 6

Lascannons/Multimeltas on Storm Ravens, Land Raiders, Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts.

 

in close combat:

 

Justicars/Terminators with Daemon Hammers. Note that Hammerhand applies /before/ power-fist equivalent doubling effects. Librarian's Might of Titan adds another +1 str but obviously caps at 10; more importantly it gives 2d6 to armor penetration rolls.

 

Dreadnoughts with DCCW for obvious reasons, same with Dreadknight.

[bl00d bath76]

Primarily psycannons are your best bet for dealing with AV 14. Autocannon dreads shouldn't really target AV 14 as all they will really do is shake it and their firepower is better lent somewhere else. Psycannons are personaly very good as the high volume of shots results in at least a few rends and then you only need to roll a 3+ to pen and are guarnateed a glance.

 

However deamon hammers with str 10 are also effective and when all hope is lost with rending it to death you can reliably punch it to take it out the game. The fact every squad can take a str 10 weapon for only a few points is golden and is one of the reasons why you should take at least one per squad. It also makes the unit a threat.

 

Apart from that storm ravens with multi-melta dreads in the back work well just cannot always be counted on.

[Nian]

Primarily psycannons are your best bet for dealing with AV 14. Autocannon dreads shouldn't really target AV 14 as all they will really do is shake it and their firepower is better lent somewhere else. Psycannons are personaly very good as the high volume of shots results in at least a few rends and then you only need to roll a 3+ to pen and are guarnateed a glance.

 

However deamon hammers with str 10 are also effective and when all hope is lost with rending it to death you can reliably punch it to take it out the game. The fact every squad can take a str 10 weapon for only a few points is golden and is one of the reasons why you should take at least one per squad. It also makes the unit a threat.

 

Apart from that storm ravens with multi-melta dreads in the back work well just cannot always be counted on.

 

A Techmarine woth Conversion beamer would do nicely. As would having an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor using a Conversion Beamer and with 3x Multi-Melta Servitors, Warrior Acolytes with Melta-Guns would be good too. Throw in a couple of Jokaero Weaponsmiths for good measure.

[Angelis Mortis]

Primarily psycannons are your best bet for dealing with AV 14. Autocannon dreads shouldn't really target AV 14 as all they will really do is shake it and their firepower is better lent somewhere else. Psycannons are personaly very good as the high volume of shots results in at least a few rends and then you only need to roll a 3+ to pen and are guarnateed a glance.

 

However deamon hammers with str 10 are also effective and when all hope is lost with rending it to death you can reliably punch it to take it out the game. The fact every squad can take a str 10 weapon for only a few points is golden and is one of the reasons why you should take at least one per squad. It also makes the unit a threat.

 

Apart from that storm ravens with multi-melta dreads in the back work well just cannot always be counted on.

 

A Techmarine woth Conversion beamer would do nicely. As would having an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor using a Conversion Beamer and with 3x Multi-Melta Servitors, Warrior Acolytes with Melta-Guns would be good too. Throw in a couple of Jokaero Weaponsmiths for good measure.

 

About the Jokaeros, keep in mind they can fire both a Lascannon or a Multi-melta. Can be very effective in squads of 4+ for dealing with single vehicles.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

he said pure gk guys X)'

 

I plan on taking storm ravens since you can get a MM for free, and still shoot it after turbo boosting due to POTMS.

 

If you werent committed to taking pure gk, id take a basic inquisitor with 3 MM servitors in a rhino. 95 point unit that has an excellent chance of popping a LR, but then likely die. BUT, they would have more than doubled their value :D

[number6]

Psycannons are actually reasonably effective against AV 14. You don't need meltas if you take enough psycannons.

 

MMs come for free on all dreadnoughts, of course. We're all enamored of psyflemen (for good reason), but there's no reason not to run MMs on dreads as well. Myself, I use a stock vendread in most of my lists and embark it on a stormraven (another source of melta). But you can definitely build a list with footslogging dreads with MMs and it would be just fine.

[uberschveinen]

Venerables are the best tank-hunters you can get shy of a Vindicaire in the list. They're nigh-unkillable thanks to reroll damage and effectively ignoring stunned/shaken, and come bare-bones with a Multi-melta and DCCW, both giving double penetration on top of massive strength. The delivery is the one problem, because if it has to walk then instead of destroying tanks it's reduced to merely a 12" mobile radius that no tank will ever enter voluntarily. Decent, but not really worth 175 points. And don't buy a Stormraven just to transport one because that's a criminal waste of points. If you have one already sure, use it.

[the jeske]

vindicator can be made totaly fluffy and GK with counts as . Use the old tarantula model and take some servo skulls or better yet a tech marine.

[Gentlemanloser]

but there's no reason not to run MMs on dreads as well.

 

The only slight detriment to Dreads running MMs is that to use their MMs, they in turn get in range of enemy MMs.

 

Which makes it a very dangerous and situational use of MM, especially when you can get 3 Warrior MG or 3 Serivor MM units for much less. :tu:

 

Edit: Especially as we can't get Drop Pods for our MElta Dreads to ensure first turn placement for accurate Melta use.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

In all fairness, a psycannon is better than a lascannon at killing all veichles except monoliths. Why sweat it?

[Master Toddius]

Lazorbacks with my strikers, MM's on LRC's + psyammo strength increase to the assault cannon with rending. And then yes the psycannon rending (if you can roll it) is a viable anti av14 as well.

 

**edit: Also remember that hammerhand + great sword from a dreadknight in CC can do some serious damage to AV14 vehicles, a little more difficult if its a LR. Because it'll always hit rear armor + an extra pen dice for MC. Teleport shunt near a line of leman russes and then go to town next turn. If they're trying to evade then you're winning either way.

[timmytool]

It seams you have all forgot the orbital strike relay on a techmarine/HQ (esecially if sevoskulls work with it and it can be master crafted) and when it is not tank hunting with its st10 ap1 lance blast do not half st for a partial hit, it can mow down orks with its D3 pie plates.

 

edit: added blast minus the half strength rule & also on a HQ

[uberschveinen]

OSR is a crappy vehicle-hunter. A full-scatter small blast will usually just outright miss, and if not, hit at half. You're effectively paying 150 points for a single S10 attack with Ork-level accuracy and reliability.

[Chengar Qordath]

OSR is a crappy vehicle-hunter. A full-scatter small blast will usually just outright miss, and if not, hit at half. You're effectively paying 150 points for a single S10 attack with Ork-level accuracy and reliability.

While I agree about the scatter issue, do bear in mind that the Lance Strike doesn't hit vehicles at half strength thanks to its special rules. Landing a hit is pretty much a matter of pure luck, but if the dice are on your side an S 10 AP 1 Lance will ruin any vehicle's day.

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, unless the vehicle you're targetting is huge, you're almost guaranteed to miss the vehicle you're aiming at. It's really only useful to fire at a group of vehicles clumped together.

[Chengar Qordath]

Aye, unless the vehicle you're targetting is huge, you're almost guaranteed to miss the vehicle you're aiming at. It's really only useful to fire at a group of vehicles clumped together.

Indeed; it's a nice weapon against the likes of heavily mechanized Guard lists, where you're reasonably likely to have several vehicles worth shooting within your scatter range.

 

Also, while we're on the topic of the OSR, Karamazov's OSR can be great for tank-hunting, assuming you don't mind sacrificing a cheap acolyte to get a scatter-less lance strike.

[RedemptionNL]

Also, while we're on the topic of the OSR, Karamazov's OSR can be great for tank-hunting, assuming you don't mind sacrificing a cheap acolyte to get a scatter-less lance strike.

Depends on your definition of 'great'. ;) You've first have to get an acolyte next to the vehicle you want to target, which will most likely include using a transport to get him there. If the target vehicle is somewhere in the backfield this means you might have to spend a few turns driving to it.

 

And if you manage to actually get your 'volunteer' next to the intended target before he or his transport is blown up, you most likely only get one shot as he either gets evaporated by the Lance Strike, or killed in the following opponent's turn.

 

I mean, it's funny to pull it off if it works, but it seems like a lot effort for something that might as well just Shake the target, or do nothing at all.

[Chengar Qordath]

Also, while we're on the topic of the OSR, Karamazov's OSR can be great for tank-hunting, assuming you don't mind sacrificing a cheap acolyte to get a scatter-less lance strike.

Depends on your definition of 'great'. ;) You've first have to get an acolyte next to the vehicle you want to target, which will most likely include using a transport to get him there. If the target vehicle is somewhere in the backfield this means you might have to spend a few turns driving to it.

 

And if you manage to actually get your 'volunteer' next to the intended target before he or his transport is blown up, you most likely only get one shot as he either gets evaporated by the Lance Strike, or killed in the following opponent's turn.

 

I mean, it's funny to pull it off if it works, but it seems like a lot effort for something that might as well just Shake the target, or do nothing at all.

Well, if you can pull it off, it works, and with Strength 10, Lance, and Ordnance the odds of it doing nothing are really low, and AP1 gives a 50% chance of killing it.

 

Great was probably an overstatement, but it is a fun option for a really good AT shot.

[uberschveinen]

Paying an extra fifty points for an OSR that is in one extremely unlikely situation that you can go games trying to engineer without success somewhat better is not 'great'. It's even worse value than the standard OSR, and the standard OSR is a heinous waste of points for vehicle-killing.

 

OSRs are good for one thing, and that is horde-breaking. They are unfeasibly good at that, right up until they get charged or shot down. That's why you need to use them well. My personal favourite is to use them as OSR-Rad Techmarines, and join them to the standard 5-man Purifier squad with two Psycannon. They now have devastating anti-horde firepower to the point that you should be clearing a squad a turn, and, because they're Purifiers, are still effectively un-assaultable by horde units. Rad grenades and at least two Halberds makes them an ungodly terror to charge into for high-level foes, and they will win most shooting duels thanks to having the Psycannon firepower to cut down larger foes and vehicles, and the OSR plus guns to munch through any horde. Get them into cover, preferably on the objective so they don't need to move, and you get a 3+ cover save to ruin the day of standard anti-MEQ firepower. Or hell, if you feel like it, get the Razorback to support them with firepower and to dump them on the objective fast, and the Techmarine makes the thing unreasonably hard to disable. It may be a damned expensive choice at 299 points, but combines a level of firepower that you have to deal with with a level of resilience that makes dealing with them such a huge bastard. Not nearly so good against MEQs, where other choices can be more useful, but I'd always take them for any other army.

 

Of course, in that case, it's not actually the OSR that makes them good. The OSR is merely one of the many services they offer, that work together to make them just the biggest bastards you can get.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't think anyone's said that OSRs should primarily be used for tank-busting, just that it's an option to keep in mind. If you're in a position where you've got a decent chance of hitting with a Lance Strike, it's worth considering, because if it hits it will hit hard. If you don't think you can hit Lance Strike, use the barrage bomb or do something else entirely.

 

Plus I am amused by the idea of using Karamazov to repeatedly drop orbital bombardments onto your own troops. It's so wonderfully Grimdark.

[number6]

I think OSRs are great provided you're willing to take at least two of them. If you can spare the Elite slots, take 2 or 3 techmarines with OSRs and deploy deep in your deployment zone, surrounded by servo skulls for screening. Also be sure to attach either to a strikeknight combat squad (send the other half with all the cool weapons forward in its Razorback or Rhino) or put in its own Rhino for protection.

 

Dropping 2 or 3 OSRs into your opponent's deployment zone every turn will force them to MOVE. :) Gunlines and vehicle parking lots are really not happy about these kinds of things....

[thade]

You know, at first glance the OSR seemed to have very limited application to me...but while a single 50 point upgrade seems silly, several of them as my pseudo-vindicators appeals to me. Even just thematically...that's a lot of fire power. I've got a techmarine and had been considering fielding a GM for his upgrade power alone. Maybe I'll pick up a second techmarine.

 

Also, after reading this thread, I will be taking as many psycannons as I can fit in my squads.

[Nian]

Has anyone here considdered sing a techmarine with conversion beam, joining a purgation squad in a rhino and using the astral aim ability? If the Techmarine is with the purgation squad, he can use Astral Aim right? :)

[Chengar Qordath]

Has anyone here considdered sing a techmarine with conversion beam, joining a purgation squad in a rhino and using the astral aim ability? If the Techmarine is with the purgation squad, he can use Astral Aim right? :D

The techmarine would benefit from Astral Aim. However, there is a problem in that the Conversion Beamer's range really doesn't mesh well with any Purgation squad weapons. After all, the Conversion Beamer wants to be at least 42" away, and the longest-range weapon Purgation Squads have access to is 24".