How can I make a competitive and fluffy army out of C:SM?

[northoceanbeach]

I'm getting back into the game and the last army I had and shortly used was Ultramarines played as fluffy as I could. I tired to follow the codex astartes and used tac squads in rhinos, devastators, an assault squad, captain and one veteran squad from the first company. Well it didn't work very well. It played ok, but I wouldn't call it competitive. I'd like to find a better balance this time. I'm tempted to use the Space Wolves or Blood Angels codex, because they have better troops, which the core of my fluffy army should be built around, but I think I can do it with CSM. So far I'm thinking Vulcan and a good mix of everything, especially his weapon upgrades, and plenty of mobility.

 

What armies have you used that were effective?

[minigun762]

As a traitor marine, I hope you realize that it doesn't matter what you do, your false emperor's empire will come crashing down around you.

 

That being said, I think you can make a competitive army with C:SM and you can do it without relying on Vulcan either. You have quite a few powerful units and luckily they are all in different FOCs so you're not restricted. You need to use your other FOCs slots to support the troops as they are less then awesome by themselves but with the backing of another unit or two, they can work very well.

 

As far as being fluffy with the codex, remember that marines can be equipped in various ways and still perform their codex role, for example there are quotes about assault marines using land speeders or bikes instead of jump packs. Thinking like this gives you flexibility on what units you want to use while still holding to the standard of the battle company.

[northoceanbeach]

Unfortunately I fall into the category of

 

"tatical marines and bolters are underpowered."

 

yet the only armies I'm interested in are Space Marines. So I've got to work something out without giving up on my core.

[Project.2501]

You could always start here and take from it what you'd like:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=230600

[minigun762]

Unfortunately I fall into the category of

 

"tatical marines and bolters are underpowered."

 

yet the only armies I'm interested in are Space Marines. So I've got to work something out without giving up on my core.

 

Thats ok. I know that tactical squads can be difficult to figure out. A quick scan of the Tactica Astartes section will tell you that.

 

My quick and dirty advice for you would be to focus your tactical squads on anti-infantry, as that is where they naturally shine. That means the free flamer would be my special weapon of choice as its S and AP match the bolter. For the heavy weapon, any of the free ones could work but I would probably take the multi-melta to give me a little extra "just in case" anti-tank power. The missile launcher is also S8 but the AP1 of the multi-melta makes it superior for frying a tank or heavy infantry without factoring in the +2d6 penetration.

 

2-3 tactical squads decked out like this will provide the bulk of your infantry killing but you're still weak in the anti-tank and assault capabilities so this is where we look at the other FOC slots to fill those needs and like I mentioned before, C:SM has a lot of options.

[TyrionTheImp]

Any army that can be made using the Codex for that army is "fluffy" for that army, period. Basically, any army you make using C:SM is a fluffy army. After all if it wasn't likely Space Marines would make an army that way in the fluff why would they put the options to in the book?

 

Now, competitive on the other hand, well, it depends on what points level you play at. I'm assuming 2000 points, so here's what I suggest:

 

Find out the units you WANT to use. Don't go by what is said on the internet, if there's a unit you want to use, there is a way to make a list that's competitive with it. Figure out that unit's role, and work around it with the rest of the list.

 

Make sure you have ways of killing infantry, light armor, and heavy armor, but make sure you have a variety of ways to do this, so you aren't relying on one thing, preferably in varying range bands.

 

Have reliability and redundancy. This is the true cornerstone of a competitive list. Many people see this as "spam", which is somewhat true, having 2 is better than 1 and 3 is better than 2, however if a unit is reliable enough to be able to do something by itself, then sometimes just 1 is all you need.

 

Always have plenty of troops. I bring 4 tactical squads at 2000 points, and they work for me, but they may not work for you. I don't care what people say, Tacticals are just fine. However, scouts can work too, in the proper list, so don't be afraid to use them. Just make sure you have a lot of scoring bodies.

 

Don't build a one trick pony. Yeah, that Land Raider with assault terminators looks awesome, until it get's melta'd to death, then the terminators are torrented to death and you lost almost 500 points of your army? Nice. Of course, having a second land raider with more assault terminators increases the chances of doing something with them, that's almost half your army right there.

 

Make a list and stick with it. Figure out what -you- like, and stick with it, changing minor things here and there as you play more to see what works and what doesn't, if you find it works, stay with it. The best way to really sort out the kinks is to play a lot of games against a lot of opponents, but don't shy away from your original plan.

[DarkGuard]

I would also highly suggest taking a look at the link that Project.2501 has provided. Within it are many different unit configurations that other people have provided. This means that those unit configs have worked for them, and are therefore well worth considering. Also, there is a link in my profile to the C:SM 101. It's a quick guide on the strengths and weaknesses of C:SM units, as well as common builds used, many of which are most likely used on the tournament circuit.

 

As for the issue on Tactical squads and HQs, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you. No offense, but I find that those who claim that Tactical squads are underpowered just don't know how to use them. Tactical squads may not be as good as Grey Hunters or Red Thirst Blood Angel squads. They may not all wield power weapons and storm bolters, or be close combat monsters like Berserker and and Stealers. Their guns may not be as good as the Tau, or their numbers as numerous as the Guard. But what they are is tough, durable, flexible, and reliable. As minigun says equipping them for anti-infantry is a fine choice, and sees them shine in the role they do best. The multi-melta is a fantastic choice to give them flexibility. By extension, the plasma gun is also a good choice, as it complements the multi-melta well, and can do anti-anything really.

 

Regarding HQs, it seems a common misconception that you need Vulkan/Pedro/Libby/Biker Captain to be a competitive Marine armies. These choices are definitely good, competitive choices, perhaps the most competitive choices we have, but they aren't required to be competitive. Now, my lists tend to be organic, in that they constantly change every couple of months, but normally in small, subtle ways, like using a different unit or weapons upgrade. This keeps it fresh and lets me try new things. The current rendition of my list (which had previously been unbeaten in a few months before I changed it), has played 5 games and won every one, and drawn a 6th (although my opponent admitted I had basically won it anyway). My HQ was done of the above, but a Chapter Master. Many people agree that it's often best to save points and at least take the Captain, but I wanted the Chapter Master for the Honour Guard. But many people, especially the internet will tell you that for price and durability, the TH/SS Terminators are much better, and don't warrant the Chapter Master being used.

 

What I'm trying to say, is that the common conception of what is competitive isn't always accurate. What is competitive for you is what you can use well in your own lists. It doesn't matter if other people don't use it, or think it's rubbish, if it works for you and helps you win games then it's competitive. So experiment, play around with your lists, find the units you like, and if you really like a unit don't let someone make you change it out for something else. Don't be afraid of losing, and don't be downhearted if you don't win for the first few games. Once you've found your feet and found a list and style that suits you, you'll start picking up wins, and I guarantee you it'll be more rewarding than following what the internet says is competitive.

[Paulochromis]

C:SM in a nutshell

8 builds - pick one.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Mysticaria]

C:SM in a nutshell

8 builds - pick one.

 

Cheers, Paul.

Wow... that article is fairly... humorous. I thought it was closed-minded and condescending at first, but after reading it again I think it's just closed-minded and satirical.

 

Yeah, they've got a pretty good "cookie cutter" guide to space marines here. However, through oversimplification and needless one-vs-one comparison it misses out on context... analyzing an entire army to see what the capabilities are. I suppose it could be useful to beginners, but this cookie cutter guide isn't going to help someone who's got the basics and is trying to build a personalized army. Its a shame to find out Cyclone Terminators are sub-par compared to Riflemen Dreads. Wait... did someone mention that they have completely different roles and threat profiles? On what planet is AC/LC Pred inferior to AC/HB Pred? Several very powerful units aren't even mentioned... vindicator for example. I don't think I would recommend that article to new players unless I explained the joke. Otherwise it might lead to boring games and stifle their creativity and development.

 

I'm with Darkguard on this one. Lots of competative builds within the current codex. Some are more 'Ard Boys' than others, but the codex has the tools to do many things. And tactical squads are not terrible, they just aren't good at killing other marines in close combat. They are good at other things though, and can be made fairly offensive through HQ choice and equipment. Don't forget the sergeant can take a combiweapon. Once you pair that with the special already in the squad, and lots of bolters, now you've got a fairly good shooting phase.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

C:SM in a nutshell

8 builds - pick one.

 

Cheers, Paul.

 

I've read through the Codex review, found it, not enlightening, but same old rather. Nothing I hadn't heard before. Will get round to reading that when I can. The problem I find with blogs is they tend to be written in the view that the person who wrote it is right and everyone else is wrong, at least that's the feeling I get. Not much room for debate basically.

 

EDIT: having now read it I can see it makes sense, but feel it's too narrow and closed minded, as Myst says. Still, that doesn't stop me smiling and nodding my head when he said the best way to run FA is two MM/HF Speeders alone and two Typhoons together. That's how I've been running mine for months now and I think it's absolutely smashing.