Special Weapons?

[IAmHidama]

I'm currently running a Crowe Purifier army with 2 five man squads as my troops choices, currently they have 4 halberds and a daemonhammer in each of them, and both of them have psybolt ammo, I was wondering if it was worth taking any special weapons in the squads, currently I don't as I want to get as many hits off in melee as possible. So I was wondering, should I take some special weapons in my squads or leave them as pure melee killing machines?

[BrotherWasted]

2 Psycannons for 5 men is brilliant and one of the best 5-man shooting units around. They can take on absolutlely anything and will probably kill 2-3 Marines themselves even with cover.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

5 man, 2 psycannon, 2 halberds, 1 daemonhammer (not on the Knight of the Flame). 149 points

Razorback, twin-linked heavy bolters, psybolt ammunition. 50 points

 

For 199 points that's a dangerous little unit.

[Something Wycked]

So I was wondering, should I take some special weapons in my squads or leave them as pure melee killing machines?

That is really a question that only you can answer. Are the Psybolt Stormbolters enough shooting firepower out of these squads for your needs? Do you have other units with enough firepower where these two don't need much?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I know people seem keen on the whole 'MSU Purifiers' concept, but I think it'll fall apart in practise. The reason being is that MSU is primarily about spamming light armour, not useful infantry. The combat squad bought to unlock the Razorback is going to stay inside it to make it scoring, and also to stay alive so even if it gets blown up, they can still hold objectives.

 

The problem arises in that you are going to spend not insignificant amounts on these combat squads (ie not that much less than a bare-bones 10-man Tactical squad from any other Marine army), whereas BA, SW and vanilla Marines all pay very little for their combat squads.

 

As an alternative, wouldn't you be better off using Strike squads? They are at least closer to being called 'cheap', and unlike Purifiers their potential at range or close-combat isn't that impressive (storm bolter has and always will be incidental on such small squads, it's the psycannons that matter firepower-wise). They also don't require 'Grand Strategy' to be used to make them scoring.

 

If you're still keen on a 'Purifier' army, I still wouldn't bother with Crowe. For a handful of points more, a Grandmaster doesn't suck, can join units, and makes your Purifiers scoring anyway. Given they cost more (especially when you leverage their ability to take quad psycannon in a full squad, plus Rhino transport so they can get places), you probably won't be fielding more than 2-3 anyway. Take a pair of double psycannon Strike squads as Troops to fill out the mandatory slots and bring bodies+firepower, add Dreads/Dreadknights to taste.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, I think (I've not played with any MSU lists though) the design with GK MSU is to walk the GK (or disembark after a 6" move / 12" after smoke) alongside the Razors, to maximise GK shooting.

 

The GK's have thier mobile 30" threat range, and the Razors spam AV and 36" S6 Heavy Bolters.

 

It's more about the weight of fire (who can really face 10 twin linked S6 Heavy Bolters that are virtually immune to Shaken/Stunned per turn, let alone the Psycannon/SB fire!) being thrown out, than keeping the Razors scoring I feel.

[IAmHidama]

Just thought I'd add that this is a footslog army, I don't really like using vehicles outside of walkers. In terms of other firepower in my army I have a 5 man purgation squad with 4 psycannons, and 2 paladin squads with a psycannon in each.

[Brother Valerius]

If you're still keen on a 'Purifier' army, I still wouldn't bother with Crowe. For a handful of points more, a Grandmaster doesn't suck, can join units, and makes your Purifiers scoring anyway. Given they cost more (especially when you leverage their ability to take quad psycannon in a full squad, plus Rhino transport so they can get places), you probably won't be fielding more than 2-3 anyway. Take a pair of double psycannon Strike squads as Troops to fill out the mandatory slots and bring bodies+firepower, add Dreads/Dreadknights to taste.

 

Scoring != troops. If you want to run more than 3 units of Purifiers, or want Purifiers while having Elites slots for other units, you need Crowe. And with a GM, you still need the mandatory troops. That's points that could go to Purifiers or weapon upgrades.

[Warsmith IV]

@Brother Valerius: Go read "The Grand Strategy" again. Grand MAsters can make D3 units of choice troops for the game, thereby able to capture objectives.

[veidin]

@Brother Valerius: Go read "The Grand Strategy" again. Grand MAsters can make D3 units of choice troops for the game, thereby able to capture objectives.

 

That's not what he was saying. He was saying that if you take a GM, but want Purifiers to be the main focus of your army you still must take at minimum (point wise) 2, 5 man strike squads to fill out the required troops choice. Just because the GM can make units scoring doesnt mean you dont have to follow the Force Chart.

 

On the note of MSU Puri armies, be prepared to be bent over on killpoint missions as a typical MSU Puri list is upwards of 14 kill points at the 1850 level if not more. Mass AV11 and MSU squads means you will give up a lot to the opponent. That's why only one MSU list made it into the finals of Adepticon.

[Chengar Qordath]

On the note of MSU Puri armies, be prepared to be bent over on killpoint missions as a typical MSU Puri list is upwards of 14 kill points at the 1850 level if not more. Mass AV11 and MSU squads means you will give up a lot to the opponent. That's why only one MSU list made it into the finals of Adepticon.

Got a point there; 5-man squads in Razorbacks have problems in KP games, which is a bit unusual since GK normally have the advantage in Kill Points matches. For example, in one recent KP match, I came within one model of being tabled, but still won the game by two Kill Points.

 

As for whether to take Crowe or a GKGM, it probably depends on the point value you're playing at. Obviously, the more Purifiers/other Elites you take in your list, the more valuable he becomes.

[IAmHidama]

There are two reasons I took Crowe, one being so that I could have purifiers as troops, and the other being because he, like a normal brotherhood champion can be thrown against my opponents largest most expensive unit and whether he dies or not, chances are due to heroic sacrifice that they die. As for the other units in my army, I have 2 5 man squads of paladins with halberds and a daemonhammer and packing a psycannon in each, then a purgation squad with 4 psycannons and a dreadknight with a personal teleporter, greatsword and a heavy incinerator.

 

I played my first game with the army today, with the purifiers without any special weapons and it worked quite well, it was against space marines and the purifiers chopped through the command squad and chaplin that my opponent was using, although one of the squads didn't fare too well against a vindcator shot, but no amount of special weapons would have helped there. So I'm still undecided on the special weapon front.

 

PS: I'm playing 1500 points

PPS: btw what does MSU mean? ;)

[veidin]

There are two reasons I took Crowe, one being so that I could have purifiers as troops, and the other being because he, like a normal brotherhood champion can be thrown against my opponents largest most expensive unit and whether he dies or not, chances are due to heroic sacrifice that they die. As for the other units in my army, I have 2 5 man squads of paladins with halberds and a daemonhammer and packing a psycannon in each, then a purgation squad with 4 psycannons and a dreadknight with a personal teleporter, greatsword and a heavy incinerator.

 

I played my first game with the army today, with the purifiers without any special weapons and it worked quite well, it was against space marines and the purifiers chopped through the command squad and chaplin that my opponent was using, although one of the squads didn't fare too well against a vindcator shot, but no amount of special weapons would have helped there. So I'm still undecided on the special weapon front.

 

Except that Crowe must footslog or hijack a transport to get anywhere and he must do it solo. ;) Hes not as easy to Heroically Sacrifice as a BC is.

 

A Vindicator has 24" range so if you had psycannons in the squad you would of had a strong chance of blowing it up before it wiped your squad. 4-8 Str7 rending shots vs AV13 there's a good chance of stunning/shaking/weapon destroying which is all you need to reliably make a Vindicator useless. So having special weapons would of absolutely helped. :lol: Would it of been a definate help? Nope, but would it of given the squad at least a fighting chance instead of being forced to simply take it and die and give up the kill point? Absolutely.

 

MSU= Multiple Small Units. 5-6 man squads in Razorbacks is an MSU spam list.

[IAmHidama]

Except that Crowe must footslog or hijack a transport to get anywhere and he must do it solo. ;) Hes not as easy to Heroically Sacrifice as a BC is.

 

A Vindicator has 24" range so if you had psycannons in the squad you would of had a strong chance of blowing it up before it wiped your squad. 4-8 Str7 rending shots vs AV13 there's a good chance of stunning/shaking/weapon destroying which is all you need to reliably make a Vindicator useless. So having special weapons would of absolutely helped. ;) Would it of been a definate help? Nope, but would it of given the squad at least a fighting chance instead of being forced to simply take it and die and give up the kill point? Absolutely.

 

MSU= Multiple Small Units. 5-6 man squads in Razorbacks is an MSU spam list.

 

The dieing Purifiers was more my fault as I moved then out of the building they were in, forgetting my opponent had moved his vindicator so I couldn't move them out of the way before the shell mushed them. As for Crowe, he hasn't done much of anything yet, he took down a tactical marine if that counts? But more importantly he hasn't died yet so he isn't a complete waste of points.

[Brother Valerius]

@Brother Valerius: Go read "The Grand Strategy" again. Grand MAsters can make D3 units of choice troops for the game, thereby able to capture objectives.

 

veidin pretty much nailed it. Scoring units are not troops. Grand Strategy makes units score (the wording tripping you up is "as if they were troops"), but they're still not troops and thus you still have normal FOC restrictions to follow.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RD, I think (I've not played with any MSU lists though) the design with GK MSU is to walk the GK (or disembark after a 6" move / 12" after smoke) alongside the Razors, to maximise GK shooting

 

Probably the former, seeing as the latter exposes your tiny squads to enemy fire more.

 

The GK's have thier mobile 30" threat range, and the Razors spam AV and 36" S6 Heavy Bolters.

 

It's more about the weight of fire (who can really face 10 twin linked S6 Heavy Bolters that are virtually immune to Shaken/Stunned per turn, let alone the Psycannon/SB fire!) being thrown out, than keeping the Razors scoring I feel.

 

In an MSU army, your storm bolter fire is rather meh (kinda like Assault Marine bolt pistols, or a Tac squad outside of rapid-fire range). As for the Razorbacks, S6 firepower isn't that great really. The strength of Guard mech isn't the multi-laser, it's the squad inside packing triple melta. The 6 anti-infantry shots of so many Chimeras adds up, but it's not the main reason you take them. If they didn't have 5 firepoints or melta Vets, a lot of IG players would pass on mech for simply spamming Infantry blobs (10 more dudemanz is harder to kill than 1 extra tank).

By same token, twin HB Razorbacks are brought for scoring armour spam, with firepower being a rather mediocre secondary benefit. If you reinvested the points you spend on Razors into more bodies (and thus, potentially more psycannons per squad), you'd probably achieve greater weight of fire anyway.

 

Just thought I'd add that this is a footslog army, I don't really like using vehicles outside of walkers. In terms of other firepower in my army I have a 5 man purgation squad with 4 psycannons, and 2 paladin squads with a psycannon in each.

 

I dunno, armour has it's place. I really like Stormravens (1 in smaller games, 2 at 2.5k), and Rhinos are kinda essential to Purifiers, because unlike your other staples (Strikes, TDA units), they can't just Deepstrike into position. I'm just not a fan of Razorspam, I think it's built better by other MeQ armies. Knights shouldn't just try to ape SW or BA builds, we should leverage our own strengths (good mid-range firepower, anti-character/monster close-combat attacks, Deepstrike everywhere, excellent support units, game-changing powers and character abilities).

 

Scoring != troops. If you want to run more than 3 units of Purifiers, or want Purifiers while having Elites slots for other units, you need Crowe. And with a GM, you still need the mandatory troops. That's points that could go to Purifiers or weapon upgrades.

 

I'm aware of that, I'm simply saying that a Grandmaster is just a powerfist away from being the same price as Crowe, but differs by being A: amazingly useful due to 'TGS' (ie in games where you don't need scoring Purifiers, you can have Outflanking ones), B: able to attach to whatever squad you want and C: on balance is better in close-combat (because he possesses a better invul, carries grenades which benefit him+squad, can be I7 for dirt-cheap, etc etc).

 

On the note of MSU Puri armies, be prepared to be bent over on killpoint missions as a typical MSU Puri list is upwards of 14 kill points at the 1850 level if not more. Mass AV11 and MSU squads means you will give up a lot to the opponent. That's why only one MSU list made it into the finals of Adepticon

 

Just what I was going to write about. More 'traditional' Knight armies avoid the Kill-Point blowout by simply having such flexible and expensive units. Most of my attempts to write 1.5k and 2k lists stay under 10 KP, and even my most 'go for broke' 2.5k list only just manages 13KP (with like 5 vehicles and a Dreadknight). It's exceedingly easy to blow up AV11 (that meh S6 dakka I mentioned before? S6 and S7 go through AV11 pretty well in large quantities), and unlike SW or BA, on average we will spam less (because point for point our scoring cargo is more expensive). Stupid KP blowout is part of the reason my Tau languish on a shelf (the other being that unless I spam Fireknifes and railgun, it doesn't work).

 

As for whether to take Crowe or a GKGM, it probably depends on the point value you're playing at. Obviously, the more Purifiers/other Elites you take in your list, the more valuable he becomes.

 

I'd say it's a no-brainer. Crowe is just flat-out bad, and if we're all honest here, if he didn't make Purifiers Troops, nobody would use him. Grandmaster is attachable, his Strategy can be modified if you're not playing 'Seize Ground' (which is the only scenario I see MSU doing better than more traditional Knight lists), and his squad benefits and 'Psychic Communion' are abilities found nowhere else (seeing as nobody bothers with Tech-Marines, and Inquisitors are even easier to squish than our Librarians). As an overall package, I'd go with the GM every time.

My other counterpoint would be that more than 3 Purifier squads (even doing MSU Razorspam) starts to get expensive fast. Soon, thats all you're fielding, because you can't fit in great support units like PsyDreads, Dreadknights, Stormravens or Paladins. Sometimes, you might even find it impossible to fit in the mandatory Librarian (being a mech army, 'Shrouding' is a god-send).

 

I'll go back to a point I mentioned earlier; if you want light armour spam, why not either do Strike combat squads+Razors, or Henchmen+Razors? The latter requires Coteaz, but he's arguably more useful than Crowe (attachable, can hide inside a transport with Henchmen/Strike squad, his abilities synergise with the 'Warp Quake' of Strike squads). That way, you're not paying the premium for a Purifier combat squad (and in the case of Henchmen Razorspam, you can comfortably fill out Troops for as little as 50 points per slot). Makes more sense to me than fielding expensive combat squads, an useless character, and less armour than comparable Razorspam lists from other MeQ armies.

[number6]

It's not a question of whether GK "razorspam" is done better/worse than some other MEQ army's ability to do "razorspam". It's the fact that GK razorbacks bring important and unique abilities to the GK army that fills tactical holes. You get S6 firepower at 36" on a platform that does not stop shooting unless it is outright destroyed. Other armies would kill for that kind of vehicle. That fact that you can use it to dump out psycannon units -- be they Purifiers or Strikers -- or can be made scoring by tossing a combat squad inside is only an added bonus. It's the firepower and mobile terrain that makes them worth taking in large numbers. (In the right army list, of course.)

 

This is also why IG take Chimeras. If you truly think that IG players only take Chimeras for the fire points, you haven't been paying attention. <_< Cheap vehicle spam -- no matter what the vehicle is, and no matter what the army codex is -- provides a lot of important tactical tools to the player who's capable of fielding it. Chimeras also happen to have the best fire points rules, so that's an additional plus. But do not discount the multilasers. (Again, mass S6 firepower FTW!) Most experienced IG players also take hull heavy flamers rather than heavy bolters to discourage vehicular assaults. Not even Space Marines like being hit with multiple heavy flamer templates, and there isn't a Xenos army around that can survive it.

 

There's a lot more to be said for vehicles than you are giving them credit for, RD.

 

On the flip side, mech spam isn't the only way to build armies. Most armies you'll see will have a mix of mechanized and foot troops. And some armies can absolutely pull off a pure infantry list (GK included). But just because all-infantry is possible doesn't mean it is also the most potent or the most preferred by all right-thinking players. :) Different strokes for different folks.

 

And on the subject of kill points: I think people worry WAY too much about KPs. I play a lot of MSU armies -- including my GKs and Tyranids, and my Tau have a metric crap ton of KPs in it (as many as 24) -- but all of these armies regularly win KP games. The reason is that correctly built MSU armies are very, VERY efficient and very VERY killy. Stop overthinking the kill point metagame and just think the game. Build a killy army, and wins in Annihilation games will come. I promise. :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's not a question of whether GK "razorspam" is done better/worse than some other MEQ army's ability to do "razorspam". It's the fact that GK razorbacks bring important and unique abilities to the GK army that fills tactical holes. You get S6 firepower at 36" on a platform that does not stop shooting unless it is outright destroyed. Other armies would kill for that kind of vehicle. That fact that you can use it to dump out psycannon units -- be they Purifiers or Strikers -- or can be made scoring by tossing a combat squad inside is only an added bonus. It's the firepower and mobile terrain that makes them worth taking in large numbers. (In the right army list, of course.)

 

I agree that HB Razors are an exceptional deal, but in my experience (your mileage may vary), S6 doesn't do a whole lot. We all theorise about the tactical possibilites of such massed firepower, but from what I've seen, it's not that fantastic. Sure, vs infantry you cause a fair amount of wounds, and with our version we have AP4 (Guard have only AP6), but you have to focus fire to get results. Each Razorback only produces 3 shots, and more to the point you have to move into range before you can use it. Only the lightest armour is really worried, and again you have to gank to achieve credible results.

I compare it to people's rose-tinted view on PsyDreads. I've found them useful, but again, people overestimate just how effective S8 is against anything AV12 or greater. I still take two in my lists, but the more I use them, the more limitations I discover. Anything with 3+ or 2+ armour soaks it up fairly well, cover saves ruin a lot of your damage results vs armour (not to mention cover also ruins your day vs horde infantry), and sometimes you just roll bad. Usually I get 1-2 good damage results though all that shenanigans, but they're not god-tier anti-tank like some may assume. Useful, even essential (outside of Razorbacks 48" range anti-tank is hard to come by), but you can't just take 3 and expect to end mech armies by Turn 2.

 

The las-plas is utterly useless against infantry, but it brings Turn 1 anti-tank reach, and the rapid-fire plasma is more of a deterrent IMO than S6 heavy bolter to people getting close trying to melta or assault you (not to mention monsters don't wanna come near you either). You do pay about twice per chassis, but I get around that by simply taking Henchmen, not expensive Purifier or Striker cargo. You can run the math, but I'm pretty sure the las-plas turret compares favourably vs AV11+ next to the psy-heavy bolter turret.

 

The fact the combat squads inside aren't as completely useless as say Tac or Assault combat squads is nice, but you still have psycannons on a tiny unit which is easily destroyed (both Strikes and Purifiers are the same vs ranged attacks). I'm just saying, once the Razor is gone, the squad inside is going to get maybe one shooting phase off before getting ganked. 5 Marines is not a challenge to remove, and it's not like they're cheap (especially with psycannons added). At least by going the Henchmen route, you don't have unrealistic expectations for what happens when the Razor blows up.

A vanilla SM, BA or SW army is going pump out more Razorbacks for similar prices to Strike/Purifier Razorspam, simply because their cargo is cheaper and they're not expecting them to do anything once de-meched. If you're going to do it, I'd take Henchmen first, then supplement with Strike/Purifier combat squads (or seeing as you are making a pretty hefty point saving on bringing moar AV11, try and make full Purifier squads in Rhinos).

 

This is also why IG take Chimeras. If you truly think that IG players only take Chimeras for the fire points, you haven't been paying attention. Cheap vehicle spam -- no matter what the vehicle is, and no matter what the army codex is -- provides a lot of important tactical tools to the player who's capable of fielding it. Chimeras also happen to have the best fire points rules, so that's an additional plus. But do not discount the multilasers. (Again, mass S6 firepower FTW!) Most experienced IG players also take hull heavy flamers rather than heavy bolters to discourage vehicular assaults. Not even Space Marines like being hit with multiple heavy flamer templates, and there isn't a Xenos army around that can survive it.

 

I agree, but my point still stands. Multi-lasers are not the drawcard, they're more like a minor but nonetheless useful pro. The major draws for the Guard player are A: no one brings as much AV12 frontage, B: your melta Vets/autocannon Infantry squad/plasma spam Command squad have a fantastic mobile bunker to get them in range to do their thing and C: nine shots at 36" per tank is pretty sweet (a lot of Guard players like to tack on pintle heavy stubbers). The two most common usages for Chimeras that I've encountered is to shield Leman Russes so they can battle cannon you while getting a cover save (not to mention blocking frontal or side assaults), and of course the aforementioned melta-Vet rush which has made Landraiders so pointless in tourney's. The dakka output of the Chimera is a sideshow to the main draws of sheer armour frontage (thats why they call it the parking lot lol) and making Guard infantry competitive (the Infantry blob armies lasted about a week in my area before they went mech).

The heavy flamer thing is kinda meh really. Sure, against close-combat armies, it's good for that one turn before they charge you (Orks and Tyranids in particular hate it with a passion), but Marines are going to walk through it and clamp kraks/powerfist into your tail. Or, they'll just blow you up from a distance. I was saying before how one S6 heavy bolter per Razor is underwhelming and needs focus fire for results. The difference with Guard Chimeras is they pump out 6 base, 9 with a cheap upgrade. Yes they differ in strength and AP, but thats still at least double, if not triple the dakka output of Knight Razorbacks. More to the point, even melta-Vet or plasma Command cargo works out much the same price (if not cheaper) than Purifier/Striker psycannon combat squads.

 

 

There's a lot more to be said for vehicles than you are giving them credit for, RD.

 

I'm not discounting the advantages of mech (I've restated some above), but I think you're just being a tad optimistic about how heavy bolter Razors will fare. Especially with your idea of putting small, expensive MeQ squads inside. I love psycannon spam as much as any Knight player (I try to cram as many into my lists, on as many platforms, as practicable), but you have to be mindful of the sheer bloodiness of 40k fights. I try to take full-strength squads as much as I can, and they often lose between a quarter and half of their models in a typical fight. If they had been combat squads, I would've been really up the creek with no paddle. The reason I rate Guard and Henchmen highly is they're under no illusions as to what happens when their ride dies, and thus are dirt-cheap for what they do.

Knights pay a premium for their abilities and wargear, and thus you expect them to stick around to achieve something. I'm not saying they'll dissolve as easily as 3-man Henchmen cargo or typical Guard mechanised squads, but it only takes 5 failed saves and you're out (less if you lose the psycannon dudes early to bad luck).

I hark back to the discussions we used to have with the last codex, explaining to people why taking less than 8 bodies for a Knight squad was tempting fate. Nowadays, Strikers are cheaper to field, so you can pretty much take the same 8-man with dual psycannon from yesteryear, only with 2 more bodies and with access to a Rhino. Even Purifiers aren't substantially more (when you factor in their abilities and options).

So, my argument is, if you want mech Knights to do the whole 'move in for the kill and hop out', take full-strength squads in Rhinos. Its no longer MSU, but you arguably have more staying power (one shot can take down a vehicle).

 

On the flip side, mech spam isn't the only way to build armies. Most armies you'll see will have a mix of mechanized and foot troops. And some armies can absolutely pull off a pure infantry list (GK included). But just because all-infantry is possible doesn't mean it is also the most potent or the most preferred by all right-thinking players. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Yeah I know, and having written all this stuff, most players I face who mech are either Guard or Marines. My local Eldar players are all Wraithlord+Guardian horde fans (don't ask :) ), Daemons obviously can never do it, and the Ork player I face regularly does a pretty commendable attempt at a foot list (his Nobz walk up the field with Ghaz, again I have no explanation but it strangely works).

I'm just saying, you wanna do MSU mech, you need to compare apples with apples. And, looking at how other MSU mech armies do it, a Striker/Purifier method seems IMO not the best way to go. I could be wrong :P wouldn't be the first time. But yeah, on paper, I'm leaning towards Coteaz and his armour pool of las-plas Razors. I'm probably going to proxy in a game soon, see how it goes on smaller scales (locally everyone plays 1.5k, which is quite frustrating because it makes list writing so tight). Have a go with your Strike/Purifier build, tell me how it fares :P . From memory you get about 20-30 Knight bodies in that kinda army, so it could work regardless of my expectations.

 

And on the subject of kill points: I think people worry WAY too much about KPs. I play a lot of MSU armies -- including my GKs and Tyranids, and my Tau have a metric crap ton of KPs in it (as many as 24) -- but all of these armies regularly win KP games. The reason is that correctly built MSU armies are very, VERY efficient and very VERY killy. Stop overthinking the kill point metagame and just think the game. Build a killy army, and wins in Annihilation games will come. I promise.

 

Yeah like I said, my poor Tau :P 5th edition cover saves are the other reason I sadface when I play them. I agree, KP aren't that bad really, but it's still something that can catch you out. Draigowing is my personal nightmare as an opponent lol.

[number6]

You mentioned a few times the problems with having to "focus fire" to obtain results. Although you stated it differently, that is also what you said about about psyflemen. (You may fail to penetrate, you have to accumulate a lot of hits to get statistically reliable results, targets are often in cover, etc.)

 

All of which are spot on. :) But this is 40K. You should always assume your target will get a cover save, whether we're talking about infantry, vehicles, or even MCs.

 

This is by design.

 

GW has given most codexes the ability to deliver a devastating shooting phase. In previous editions of 40K, how many of us actually enjoyed watching the local IG gunline nut deploy his army. It was a pure weight-of-dice-fest, and generally a pretty unfun game to play, even if you could beat it. But rather than weaken the shooting phase, GW strengthened the defenses against it. They made vehicles both cheaper and more durable to make them more attractive. (Not to mention possibly encouraging more sales of expensive models. :P ) They added the Run rule to encourage more mobility. They added outflanking. All of these things make the game faster and more mobile. Units can really get around the table at speeds that were impossible prior to 5th edition and the new 5e codexes that followed in its wake.

 

And, of course, they added generous cover save rules on top of this.

 

All of this is to say: Your knocks against vehicles and vehicle shooting isn't actually anything special or unique as a problem. You're just describing the inherent nature of 40K as it exists.

 

This is why "spamming" vehicles works for certain army lists. Taking just 2 or 3 razorbacks in a GK list gives rise to unreasonably angry claims of "Spam!" and "Uncreative!" But as you implied, two or three vehicles is not reliable. You need like 6, or 8, or more if you want reliable results. Because, as you stated, you must always focus fire to obtain results. There's no getting around it; that's just the way 40K is. You can't count on singular, lucky shots to carry the day.

 

There are many reasons why most tournament, "highly competitive" army lists "spam" repeated unit configurations, including "razorspam". One of the main reasons is to obtain statistically reliable results in the Shooting Phase (in the Assault Phase secondarily). Quite literally, there is no other way to do it. Math does not lie! :lol: (The other main reason, of course, is to give the list redundancy, but I don't want to expand the discussion beyond where it's at right now.)

 

So as far as GK razorspam goes, it is absolutely a good thing to have multiple sources of 36" S6 firepower. Combined with normal vehicular movement, the range covers nearly the entire table, especially once deployment is also accounted for. It's one of the few weapons the GKs have that have that kind of reach and targeting flexibility. S6 is enough to threaten transports, and in large enough numbers, will do damage. For instance, simply glancing enemy rhinos, razorbacks, and chimeras are Good Enough. Shake or stun a Chimera, and all those firepoints are useless, aren't they? ;)

[Brother Valerius]

I compare it to people's rose-tinted view on PsyDreads. I've found them useful, but again, people overestimate just how effective S8 is against anything AV12 or greater.

 

I think you're overly hard on S8's chances versus AV12, particularly when you're firing 4 twin-linked shots per turn. You have a 99.99% chance to get at least one pen vs AV12 per round of shooting, and a 50.48% chance of getting at least two. And if you do get two pens, you have a greater than 50% chance to destroy it! That's not bad, not at all.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'd like to point out an idea I have that seems to be uncommon...

 

6 man Purifier squad with two Incinerators deployed by Razorback :lol:

 

Incinerators demand you to be up close and personal... Purifiers like to be up close and personal. By firing Incinerators you risk wiping out enough of a horde to not be able to charge, and then being counter-charged. Purifiers don't care about that with psychic power fiery goodness.

 

That and it gives me a place to field my pewter Incinerator bearing models... a handy Elites choice in a non-Crowe army.

[jeffersonian000]

I too have been experimenting with 6-man Purifier Pikemen (1 hammer, 3 halberds, 2 specials) in PB/HB Razors, as it seems to be a sweet spot for points/effectiveness. Of course, I'm still preferring Psycannons over Incinerators, but time will tell.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd like to point out an idea I have that seems to be uncommon...

 

6 man Purifier squad with two Incinerators deployed by Razorback

 

Why would that be better than a 10 man Squad with 4 Incinerators in a Rhino?

 

The Razorback is wasted, as you'll want to move 12" (and pop smoke) to get into Assault range for the next turn. And a full Squad is going to be much more effective in CC than 6.

[jeffersonian000]

Why would that be better than a 10 man Squad with 4 Incinerators in a Rhino?

 

The Razorback is wasted, as you'll want to move 12" (and pop smoke) to get into Assault range for the next turn. And a full Squad is going to be much more effective in CC than 6.

 

It is a numbers game. Multiple small units, built identically and spammed, are much stronger in a competetive environment than fewer yet stronger units. A 12"mover followed by a disemberk and shooting phase can be decisive with a 10-manunit in a Rhino, but it can be devastating with two 6-man squads in Razorbacks. Ot three, or four. You opponent cannot kill all of them in a short time, but they can kill/tar pit a larger unit in a single tranport.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

But a 6 man Puri Squad with 2 Incinerators isn't that. :/

 

You're getting close, to either set up a charge, or expect a counter charge. For that, a max sized Squad is better. Plus you won't be using the Razorback as your using it to deliver you to template range.