Special Weapons?

[number6]

One assumes that you don't send in a small "MSU"-built-to-purpose unit (like INP's example Purifier unit) on its own. :tu: The point, implied by jeffesonian, is that MSU obviously doesn't work if all you do is consider individual unit effectiveness. It's the mass redundancy and tactical flexibility that make such lists function properly and powerfully.

 

Most of the time we just talk about unit efficiency. But units built for MSU army lists are "efficient" in an entirely different sense. They are an "efficient" cog of a much larger machine that relies on good generalship to function, because the individual units themselves are relatively weak.

 

Thus you can't really compare 10-man units with relatively significant wargear upgrades in Rhinos with a single little unit with stripped down options in a Razorback. They not only cost differing points amounts, but they are built for entirely different purposes.

[IAmHidama]

Hey guys, thought I'd update this thread as I have some interesting results with my special weaponless purifers, and more importantly, Crowe. So I played my second and third battles today, against orks and then oddly enough Mech IG, and they went pretty well.

Vs Orks

 

Started game, 2 objectives, setting up on either side of the map (4' square board)

 

First Turn:

Not much happened here, advanced towards eachother, kept one purifer squad back to keep objective

 

Second Turn:

moved up with my purifers and crowe, purgation squad took up residence in a trench, reserves didn't arrive this turn.

Opened fire with my purgation squad on his sluggaboyz took out a few, his turn he was just outta charge range.

 

Third Turn:

This is where it got good, deep striking paladins and a DK around the teleport homer my purgation squad had, dropping perfectly forming a wall between them and the orks, purifier squad opens fire on the big boyz mob before charging them, crowe charges the warboss and his nob squad as he had suprisingly weathered their firepower. in assault phase, through cleansing flame and normal attacks, take out 12 orks, sweeping advance through the rest but accidentally into charge range of his second mob. (This is the good bit) Crowe hits all the nobs and the warboss in combat (bad model placement from my opponent) I roll to wound on them, ALL 4+, nobs strike back and I make all my saves.

 

Fourth Turn:

Paladins charge into the combat with the already engaged purifiers and the ork mob, I shunt my dreadknight towards his home objective, paladins and DK now in LoS of his loota's guarding his objectives, but he rolls 1's so the pitiful amount of shots pings off of there armour. In shooting phase DK burns 5 boyz in the mob guarding his objective. In assault phase, paladins and purifers tear though the mob, killing them to a man before consolidating towards crowe and the warboss, Crowe hits again, and I roll all 4+'s but one, murdering all the nobs and leaving just the warboss, who stands his ground.

 

Final Turn:

I basically murder the rest of his forces in this turn, although crowe gets taken down by the warboss, his heroic sacrifice kills the greenskin.

 

I think that that battle went well, I will post up the IG battle in a bit, but give us your thoughts on that one first.

[Inquisitor Fox]

But a 6 man Puri Squad with 2 Incinerators isn't that. :/

 

You're getting close, to either set up a charge, or expect a counter charge. For that, a max sized Squad is better. Plus you won't be using the Razorback as your using it to deliver you to template range.

By itself the Purifiers with the Incinerators isn't well balanced, no. Thus the use of the Razorback. Either A ) I need to close quickly and flame something.. which the unit allows me to do, or B ) I need to hold back at range, use heavy weaponry, then do a counter charge after something is softened up or reached my lines, which the unit (with it's transport) allows me to do. Not only is it harmony with the rest of the list, it's also harmony with the transport. I hate uni-taskers as a general rule (Go Alton Brown!) and a Razorback, like a Chimera, is a much more versatile transport than a Rhino and appeals to me better.

 

That and 6 Purifiers with a Razorback is still cheaper than 10 with twice as many specials and a Rhino :) And it fits with my existing models better...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just so you know, I did read the rest of what you wrote. Good stuff man

 

So as far as GK razorspam goes, it is absolutely a good thing to have multiple sources of 36" S6 firepower. Combined with normal vehicular movement, the range covers nearly the entire table, especially once deployment is also accounted for. It's one of the few weapons the GKs have that have that kind of reach and targeting flexibility. S6 is enough to threaten transports, and in large enough numbers, will do damage. For instance, simply glancing enemy rhinos, razorbacks, and chimeras are Good Enough. Shake or stun a Chimera, and all those firepoints are useless, aren't they?

 

And yet here, you break flow to draw a conclusion unrelated to your previous paragraphs. I know you keep saying 'but transports hate S6', and thats kinda true (it's annoying to get shaken/stunned/immobilised from such cheap guns). My counterargument is that ripping guns off/reliably immobilising them (even with penetrates you only blow them up on 5+, so we can both agree thats pretty hard to achieve) requires real anti-tank, not pretend anti-tank. Supression fire already exists in the form of the PsyDread, who quietly trundles along with any army you want, and who makes Dark Eldar players cry like babies (every turn, a Raider dies :lol: ). Instead of just building in more of the same (psycannons are mostly suppression weapons as well, it's just that Rending means focused fire will achieve armour kills), take lascannons and plasma guns. Both of those weapon types are exceedingly rare in the army, and in the case of the former it adds to our limited pool of 48" firepower.

 

As you just stated, the Shooting phase has been significantly overhauled and improved for everyone in 5th edition. Most balanced lists now feature a mixture of good shooting specialists, good assault specialists and dependable Troops (some rely on numbers, others on quality). Mono-lists (except for Guard, who only field Ogryns for the lulz and will soon be unable to bring in Sisters to do it for them) are harder to make work. Therefore, we need to plug the gaps in our army. We have close-combat pretty much covered (provided you brought at least some Purifiers, Paladins if you can manage it), and anti-infantry isn't an issue (and psycannons make light armour a non-issue to). Its against serious armour and long-ranged opponents that Knights will have to work for victories.

 

In the context of Razorspam, we're not in any rush to get closer than we have to to shoot them. Moreover, it benefits our small numbers to hang back at 48" and trade off with their longest-ranged units. It doesn't matter if we're still outgunned, but at the very least it forces plasma, melta and many high ROF weapons to move towards you. Guard will still largely not care (in fact, I'd question even trying to out-mech Guard, because they are basically kings of that), but other armies will be left with a decision to make. Either they camp back as well, or they try to silence your long-ranged attacks quickly before you kill too much. As an aside, bringing twin-linked plasma guns further discourages people trying to get close, and lets you kill stuff your psycannons would otherwise have to focus fire themselves (monstrous creatures, heavy infantry, characters).

[number6]

Excellent. :lol:

 

The reason I personally prefer psybolt razorbacks over any of the other weapons options is points costs. TLLC or LC/TL-plasma cost close to double what a basic psyback does. Clearly they perform entirely different roles as well, but from my point of view, taking the cheaper psyback may deny you lascannons and plasma, but that's not actually a problem if you can just turn those points into more psycannons. ;) Because I agree with you on the psycannon: the more you have, the more they can fulfill the role that you seem to prefer for lascannons and plasma.

 

Which is to say: I really do think it's kind of an either/or situation. If you take more heavily upgraded razorbacks, you are bound to have fewer vehicles overall. This makes that functionality in your list easier to kill by the enemy because they have fewer targets to suppress (or outright kill). AV 11 is definitely no guarantee of survival. ;) That is to say: reliance on upgraded razorbacks means you must rely less on infantry-toted psycannons.

 

Personally -- just my opinion -- I would rather have more psycannons on the table in more units with the added bonus of S6 TL heavy bolter fire rather than fewer psycannons on the table in fewer units with actual reliance on those upgraded weapons on fewer (and weakly armoured) vehicles to pull some serious weight.

 

As always, different strokes for different folks. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The reason I personally prefer psybolt razorbacks over any of the other weapons options is points costs. TLLC or LC/TL-plasma cost close to double what a basic psyback does. Clearly they perform entirely different roles as well, but from my point of view, taking the cheaper psyback may deny you lascannons and plasma, but that's not actually a problem if you can just turn those points into more psycannons. Because I agree with you on the psycannon: the more you have, the more they can fulfill the role that you seem to prefer for lascannons and plasma.

 

Dammit, I'm starting to agree moar and moar with you :) .

 

My contention is that psycannons aren't a good replacement. They require platform investment that will be far greater than a simple upgrade to the Razorback itself. Of course, there are further reasons for that (the gear is split between more models, meaning less 'eggs in one basket', and of course the Knight combat squad itself is somewhat respectable as an offensive unit). I'm just saying, 40k games always start at long range, then move into mid-field before culminating in close-combat. In those early phases, extra lascannon is a god-send to supplement those PsyDreads, and in mid-field plasma is a valuable commodity to supplement your psycannon (means you don't have to focus fire as hard, as you can soften up MC's and heavy infantry more easily).

 

Which is to say: I really do think it's kind of an either/or situation. If you take more heavily upgraded razorbacks, you are bound to have fewer vehicles overall. This makes that functionality in your list easier to kill by the enemy because they have fewer targets to suppress (or outright kill). AV 11 is definitely no guarantee of survival. That is to say: reliance on upgraded razorbacks means you must rely less on infantry-toted psycannons.

 

Oh yeah, I agree. As I said, I'm quite happy to give the benefit of the doubt to your strategy (I'm keen to hear how it fares). It's just my personal preferences (and my reasoning behind it) that I'm trying to convince you of.

As to your assertion of heavy bolter Razors being more plentiful, thats not quite true. Your cargo will cost more than mine (because I'm spamming tiny pathetic Warrior cargo), which balances out the premium I pay to make them las-plas Razors (srsly, I pay just over 100pts for 3 x Henchmen+las-plas Razor, you pay that just for 5 plain Strike Knights). I do have next to no actual infantry (as the Henchmen Razors will eat 5-6 Troop slots), but I'm ok with that (and if it proves a problem, Purifiers and Paladins are always available in Elite).

 

Anyway, like I said, it's just my opinion. Hope you smash some Wolf/BA Razorspam in the future with your version ;) I'll be proxying mine in the near future. See how people react to 100pt tanks as Troops lol...

[Gentlemanloser]

Thing is, a 5 Strike (1 Psycannon) Psybolt Razor is 160 points.

 

3 Henchment in a LC-TLPG/TLLC Razor is 92 points. OK, almost half. So lets say two of these. :)

 

With the GKs, you get 5 Marines, 4 Storm Bolters and 1 Psycannon. Alongside one S6 HB.

 

With the Henchmen you get 6 geezers that die if anything looks at them funny. Alongside 2 LC and 2/0 PG.

 

I don't think it's a good trade off in the slightest. You literally have to run the Henchmen inside the Razors, while the Marines will be alongside thiers, shooting the bejesus out of stuff. :P

 

Edit: If you want to do that sort of stuff with Henchmen, you'd be better off with 2 MM Servitors in Rhino's (move 12 and smoke, then park there for a slong as they live), or Warriors in Chimeras.

[number6]

I'm betting there's a good army build in the 'dex somewhere led by Coteaz where you stuff henchman units into cheap psybolt razorbacks. I haven't really put my mind to it yet, but I nevertheless believe it's possible to get something quite good out of that. Maybe warriors with meltas, supplemented by psyflemen ... and something else for assault. Not sure what. The Fast Attack is underused in this sketchy template right now. Hmmmm.....?

[Gentlemanloser]

Coteaz

 

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

Warrior x 3, Meltagun x 3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (92)

 

Stormraven

Stormraven

Stormraven

 

Dread, TLAC x2, Psybolt Ammo (135)

Dread, TLAC x2, Psybolt Ammo (135)

Dread, TLAC x2, Psybolt Ammo (135)

 

Total: 1,672

 

Fill Up Elites with your CC unit of Choice (Paladin or Purifier), and space for another HQ if you so wish. ;)