Cpt_Reaper Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I was talking to my friend (whose love of fluff rivals my own) about my characters of my DiY Successor Chapter. He argues I cannot take Sammael as a count's as as only 2nd Founding Chapters MIGHT have a jetbike, where-as my DiY 11th founding Chapter could not have been given one. This in turn lead us both to wonder, how young would a Chapter of the Unforgiven be for it to miss out on certain things like the 100 suits of TDA ( give or take a few for officers), the jetbike etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Well, Sammael is supposed to have the last of his type of jetbike in Imperial service, so I doubt they would have any. Also, TDA is quite rare, so even an 11th founding would have nowhere near 100 suits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 That's the problem. He is meant to have the last, however it states somewhere in the codex that the chapter may have had more and passed the mon to their Successors. One little sentence and it makes a big question. As for the TDA, I had a theory: Am grants the new Chapter X number of TDA suits, Dark Angels give them Y number to boost their ranks from the armouries of The Rock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Considering the number of successors, I doubt it. You might have a bit more than average, but not much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 You raise an excellent point. However, the codex states that the High Lords rarely, if ever, order a Dark Angels successor. I assume this means there are very few Successors. I know i am being picky, countering your every point, I just need to be 100% certain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Still, even using only yours and the ones in the codex, that's a whole lot of suits of extremely precious armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Read the Sammy section of the dex again. It states that the other captains of the DA successors may also have Jetbikes in there arsenals. "Perhaps the masters of the 2nd companies of the other unforgiven chapters hold such wonders in ther arsenals too, the last known jet bikes to be ridden into battle by the warriors of the Imperium." That's not a for sure thing but it does heavily imply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 As the rules for the Successor chapters in the current DA 4Ed codex states that you still use Sammael with a different name, but his rules and wargear, you can definitely take him in any DA successor army, just as a Salamanders player using the DA codex would be able to use one. Does this actually mean that a Successor chapter would have a jet-bike? They used the word "might" so that they could leave players some wiggle room. If the Dark Angels managed to keep enough jet-bikes to give one to your 11th Founding chapter, then so be it, as none of it is recognized as "official" in the first place. I would ask if your friend makes sure that he only plays with special characters allocated to a specific Craftworld or DE cabal, or only use Tyranid special characters in the original hive fleet they were identified in, or Ork SCs that only belong to a single Waaagh! ? If so, he's specifically handicapping himself in a way he doesn't have to, because the newer Codexes ignore Chapter, Hive Fleet, etc, affiliation. In the same way, DA successor chapters have enough TDA to field at least 1/2 or so of their 1st Company all in TDA, per the DA rules. If you want the whole 1st Company to be in TDA, again, your perogative. The codex specifically says that Successor Unforgiven follow the DA pattern of org closely and have formations similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing. They don't specify how closely or how different, that is specifically left up to you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 And in the column on the left on the same page, it says that the last of the Mark 14s is gone, with this being the only remaining example. The fluff is rather contradictory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Actually it says "The last... are thought to have been lost" and "upon an example of this nigh extinct technology". Neither of those are definite "last"s and while people want to read them that way, it isn't what it says. Edit: Emphasis mine Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 And neither is the other Ravenwing masters having them definite. We may never know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I agree, fluff-wise, however, the rules can't be argued with: "To represent the various masters of the Successors, you can use the models and the rules..." Since the rules for Sammael include the jet-bike, then any Successor 2nd Company Master will have a jet-bike (unless you trade it in for the speeder). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yeah, I have no problem with him fielding the jetbike on the table. The fluff is the ambiguous bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 DA fluff is always ambiguous. It's purposely that way so we can decide ourselves how we want our successors to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Actually it says "The last... are thought to have been lost" and "upon an example of this nigh extinct technology". Neither of those are definite "last"s and while people want to read them that way, it isn't what it says. Edit: Emphasis mine Wrong emphasis, the emphasis should be on the fact it says AN example not as Ignis Domus claims "the last remaining example" The other emphasis should be that it says the last of the venerable Mk14's is thought to have been lost: if Sammael is riding a Mk14 then that is contradictory, but where in the codex does it say it is a Mk14 and not another mark? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2784909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungWolf7 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It's your army, your chapter, your fluff. You decide what you can or cannot field. Any successor chapter is just DA with a different name. Anyone who has a problem with that really needs to rethink how seriously they take a game IMHO. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Gamewise, obviously every successor, DIY or not, gets to use the jetbike. If you wanted to be fluffy and say your successor chapter actually didn't have one, which could very well be the case, you could simply only ever field Sammeal in his speeder. I'm not sure where I sit on the jetbike but I prefer to think it would be that only the DA and a couple other successors might have one like Sammeal's. Perhaps others have different mark jetbikes or other supped up bikes of some sort (count as jetbike)? On TDA, here is my theory - I like to think that ONLY the Deathwing has 100+ suits. 2nd foundings less, maybe more in line with codex marine numbers. And because the Deathwing have so many, later successors wind up with even less. I kind of like to think that the Consecrators, being perhaps one of the newest foundings of the Unforgiven (noted as not even being at full strength) have next to none - some reserved for HQs and maybe a squad or two worth of suits. These are all opinions of course. If you takes RAW to judge your fluff, anyone of them can have a jetbike and a full TDA company. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 With the current horus heresy fluff it stands to reason that the Dark Angels legion would have used bikes/jetbikes extensively for scouting/fighting. The knightly orders were all superb riders and would see the use in having a very mobile force to call on. Also being the first legion combined with how successful they were(UM and Luna Wolves were the only ones near them in planets retaken) they would get a larger portion certain things, TDA and jetbikes among them. So I think it makes sense that the 2nd foundings would have full or very close to full terminator companies and at least some have jetbikes. (I know this is just speculation but so is the argument against, there is no hard proof one way or another fluff wise.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 With the current horus heresy fluff it stands to reason that the Dark Angels legion would have used bikes/jetbikes extensively for scouting/fighting. The knightly orders were all superb riders and would see the use in having a very mobile force to call on. Also being the first legion combined with how successful they were(UM and Luna Wolves were the only ones near them in planets retaken) they would get a larger portion certain things, TDA and jetbikes among them. I don't mind that bit in reference to jetbikes and why the Unforgiven may have more to go around than they let on (I stand by my opinion of TDA though). However, I also can see it as a recipe for others saying that C:SM should also haev jetbikes, especially the under and Ultramarine hero given your justification. And of course, who are we to say they are wrong, but it also winds up taking yet another unique thing of C:DA and spreading it around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The only other space marines I can see having any jetbikes are white scars and their successors. As far as the other chapters/legions go I've never read any fluff that indicates they made extensive use of mounts of any form. Riding things is just kind of built into who the DA and White Scars are. Seeing as white scars already have an SC in C:SM I can't picture them adding a jetbike model. It could be argued like you said EPK but I don't think the reasoning could really go beyond "whaa DA have them why can't we whaa" (that's exaggerated but pretty much what it boils down to). "especially the under and Ultramarine hero given your justification" Two major things argue against that directly in my justification. Number 1 the DA have a mounted tradition while the UM don't, #2 the DA are an older legion to begin with so would have been more fully supplied as all the stocks were fresh. It's been pretty clearly stated in the HH novels that later legions/legions with less victories did not get first pick of wargear. The only thing my justification qualifies the UM for would be the same number of terminator suits, and they had that up until they lost their first company to the Tyranids, I'm not sure how many suits were able to be recovered from that but I can't imagine very many. As I stated in my last post though, these are all fluff justifications that can be easily argued as GW has not come out with anything official. So in the end as a hobbyist we just need to do what we feel is right for our own particular force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I agree with you for the most part. However, though the Legion may be the oldest, they did not find Caliban and the Primarch until half way through the Great Crusade. So, if Dark Angels were given jetbikes because they were one of the better equipped due to their status as 1st Legion, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Knightly background which they inherited after the finding of Caliban. Though after Caliban it would certainly be a good reason for them to start stock piling more. But in beginning, if they were simply supplied with better gear due to being an older legion we can assume other early legions may have been given them as well. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately rather, out of the first 5 legions only 2 remained loyal, ironically enough they are the Dark Angels and the White Scars. hehe. Of course in the next 5 we have only 1 turning traitor - I could certainly see the Blood Angels (IX Legion) using jetbikes during the Great Crusade as well as the Iron Hands (X Legion) with their affinity towards technology. I believe I may have also red instances of the Emperors Children having jetbikes and of course the Adeptus Custodes. In addition, all chapters do after all maintain some sort of bike mounted squads despite if they are known as having a riding heritage or not. Trust me, I'd rather the jetbike stay DA exclusive, I'm just playing devils advocate. EDIT: It looks as though the old rogue trader era models did have "jet-cycles" as well. And lexicanum claims they were common among Legions during the Great Crusade - although it does not list a source. On a side note, regarding later Legions being not as well equipped (it does sound familiar), though Horus was found first, early in the Crusade, his legion is the XVI, very close to the end. This leads me to believe the opposite, that the Legions were actually more or less produced all around the same time before they set out on the Great Crusade. But who knows, like you said, GW is very often unclear about things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm not sure where I sit on the jetbike... On the saddle is traditional but I'd be sitting at the back, well away from that plasma cannon. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 @EPK You raise some good points. That I don't have a solid answer for. As for the Legions I believe there is a middle ground. They may have all been made before the great crusade but I'll be they didn't really start expanding with large numbers until they found their primarchs. Probably over the first 100 years of the crusade. There are definitely parts of the HH books that show that newer legions often paired with older legions to learn from them before crusading on their own. Horus's legion also isn't the best example of an older legion either because he was the first found and spent most of his time with the Emperor thus would have received more/better equipment than others. We're all just batting around semantics though. Everyone in any type of argument like this is making all sorts of assumptions because we don't know. I'm wondering if GW will release some sort of HH legion summary book showing troop/equipment/order of finding primarch type data. I know there would be a ton of people that would pick it up if only to bash their buddy over the head with "haha my legion is better than yours". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Everyone in any type of argument like this is making all sorts of assumptions because we don't know. Totally agree and I suppose it's not a bad thing for those who like to fill in the gaps or themselves. I'm not sure where I sit on the jetbike... On the saddle is traditional but I'd be sitting at the back, well away from that plasma cannon. :D Well played sir, well played. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 EDIT: It looks as though the old rogue trader era models did have "jet-cycles" as well. And lexicanum claims they were common among Legions during the Great Crusade - although it does not list a source. The RT generic marine list allowed up to one squad in the army to be mounted on each of: bike, attack bike, jet bike and land speeders. In its original incarnation the Ravenwing (then the 7th company, presumably the origin of why vanilla 7th has Land Speeders today) was equipped entirely with jetbikes. Personally I'd like to see that make a comeback ("Because they're black and they fly, just like Ravens" is a somewhat better answer to "Why are they called Ravenwing?" than "Because they're black and they ride bikes, just like er Ravens"), I'd give all chapters Jetbikes as Elites (rare prized tech only entrusted to the best) but have Sammael make them Troops. I'm not sure where I sit on the jetbike... On the saddle is traditional but I'd be sitting at the back, well away from that plasma cannon. :D Well played sir, well played. Seconded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231472-jetbikes-in-successors/#findComment-2785944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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