Counts as Space Wolves

[Valkyrion]

I don't know if this is the right place, it could be in Liber or even general, but it is a bit space wolfy.

 

It isn't a hate thread, despite the title. :wallbash:

 

How do players with a DIY chapter based on the Space Wolves dex justify the WS and BS3 of their Blood Claw equivalents?

Fluff wise, I mean, how do you reconcile your assault squads being inferior to the rest of your power armoured units?

 

Same with the Long Fangs being able to fire at two units, yet not being 10 man strong.

 

Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves?

 

Space Wolves have no successors, so I'm just wondering how folk who base their chapter on the SW dex work around all the very unique SW qualities?

 

All of the other codices are easily converted into a codex chapter with a bit of tweaking, it just seems difficult to do that with the SW.

[Jimmy Carmine]

If I was to do it, they are all very easy to reconcile fluff wise.

 

How do players with a DIY chapter based on the Space Wolves dex justify the WS and BS3 of their Blood Claw equivalents?

Fluff wise, I mean, how do you reconcile your assault squads being inferior to the rest of your power armoured units?

 

New recruits don't go into the scout company, once their implantation is complete they go straight to power armour. Equipped as assault marines to get them close to the enemy to develop their control and mastery of their new bodies.

 

This deviation from the codex norm could be the result of a Rynn's World style disaster, and the chapter is trying to get as many boots on the floor as possible.

 

Same with the Long Fangs being able to fire at two units, yet not being 10 man strong.

 

With so few marines left the oldest veterans have been gathered together and tasked with ensuring that their younger bretheren survive long enough to mature into true astartes, as a result of this they are smaller squads so cannot combat squad, and instead act more selectively in their targeting.

 

Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves?

 

The Inquisitor scale Cyber-mastiff for the Fenrisian Wolves, the Thunderwolf cavalry would depend on if you had a big enough creature that could fit thematically with your fluff. Say a giant predator lizard from the Chapter homeworld, or cyber/gene enhanced cavalry horses.

 

Space Wolves have no successors, so I'm just wondering how folk who base their chapter on the SW dex work around all the very unique SW qualities?

 

A lot of the qualities are as a result of the fluff, and it isn't hard to write something for another Chapter that can work with the fluff. Where you can't get your fluff and the codex to gel then you can always not use those entries.

[Warsmith IV]

Well, some people simply avoid the uniquely Space Wolfy bits... and don't realy think about the WS and BS of their 'Blood Claws'.

 

On your point of successors, however, the Space Wolves DO have successors. They have at least one second founding chapter called the Wolf Brothers, and it's perfectly justifiable to suggest that more may have been created from their gene-seed over the course of the next 20-something foundings.

[Forté]

And don't forget the cursed founding too.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I don't know if this is the right place, it could be in Liber or even general, but it is a bit space wolfy.

 

It isn't a hate thread, despite the title. ;)

 

How do players with a DIY chapter based on the Space Wolves dex justify the WS and BS3 of their Blood Claw equivalents?

Fluff wise, I mean, how do you reconcile your assault squads being inferior to the rest of your power armoured units?

 

Same with the Long Fangs being able to fire at two units, yet not being 10 man strong.

 

Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves?

 

Space Wolves have no successors, so I'm just wondering how folk who base their chapter on the SW dex work around all the very unique SW qualities?

 

All of the other codices are easily converted into a codex chapter with a bit of tweaking, it just seems difficult to do that with the SW.

 

People, people, people.

 

These guys we love are from the imagination of GW. We then pretend lumps of shaped plastic represent these pretend guys on the table, and made up rules are made up.... to pretend that we are fighting battles in this pretend universe of GrimDarkLand.

 

A Marine could as easily be represented by a [i'm talking at Dexes and stats] Grey Hunter, Chaos Space marine, Blood Angel, Black Templar or Grey Knight.

It is only your mind, full of its notions of reality, that stops you from accepting that truth.

 

Some guy made true-scale World Eaters, and used the old C:DH for them, using them as GK Termies. s6 was how strong a power armoured Marine truly is, and the 2+5++ save to show how amazing power armour really is.

 

If people can play these guys we love from the imagination of GW, made from lumps of plastic, following made up rules to represent this pretend setting in action, YET CANNOT PRETEND an inch further than the miles they've already walked to play a game of 40K, by pretending that C:SW [or whatever Dex, really] is cool for not Space Wolves, they really need to wonder something.

How can you escape from reality and play a game of pretend men, yet the very thing you have done with reality [pretended that it wasn't going to bog you down with its limitations] is what you cannot do in this game.

You've dropped actual reality for pretend, yet you hold onto pretend as though it is real. That is some special thinking going on right there!

 

Let's take another example, not so close to home, and then you'll be able to look on it without being so coloured by wanting your guys to be super-special-unique.

 

White Scars.

Perfectly represented using C:SM. A Bike Captain or Khan as leader, unlocks Bikes galore. Coolzors.

What if you wanted to emphasise another aspect of White Scars fluff - the fast vehicles zooming alongside Jaghatai's sons?

C:BA is just as perfect a representation of that.

 

Bike Captain.

2 Assault squads.

3 Bike Squads.

Fast Preds and Razor backs hooning around, keeping up with them.

 

You can see that this too would make a fluffy White Scars force. Yet it isn't using "the proper Dex" *gasp* Ummmaaah!

 

You can even justify using Sang Priests. No, they are not Apoths going around with special cups of blood. They are actually psykers, who use their powers to protect and augment their brethren. Simples.

 

+++

 

The only reason justification is needed is because people playing a game of pretend actually have un-exercised imaginations - we get so used to watching movies and being spoon fed our fantasies and imaginations that we grow weak and feeble in our own minds.

 

Learn to imagine!

 

Don't use GWs Codexes as an authoritative how to, they wrote it and I cannot imagine anything different rule book.

I am not talking about making up unbalanced rules [though that is fine too] but am merely saying just because it says C:BA or C:SW, doesn't mean that it can only fit that hole.

 

:P

[Jimmy Carmine]

Ah Wilhelm, your response reminded me of something, your mounted Templars, now there's a brilliant excuse for C:SW counts-as! Seeing a unit of those bad-boys charging into a mob of Orks! Brilliant!

[Rikochet]

Well, some people simply avoid the uniquely Space Wolfy bits... and don't realy think about the WS and BS of their 'Blood Claws'.

 

On your point of successors, however, the Space Wolves DO have successors. They have at least one second founding chapter called the Wolf Brothers, and it's perfectly justifiable to suggest that more may have been created from their gene-seed over the course of the next 20-something foundings.

 

 

Read the battle of the fang and you might change that statement :P

[Tybrus]

I have played for may moons, cutting my teeth on the first Rouge Trader books. Falling in love with the Wolves from the few pictures in the book. (Including a strung out looking Commander Leman Russ!)

 

 

For all that time I can recall no chapter born from the Primarch's Genes that survived, and none but the hearty son's of Fenris herself can bear the strain of Russ's Blood.

[Warsmith IV]

I know what happens to their gene-seed... that doesn;t actually rule out stores kept elsewhere, and gene stocks do replenish over time, so I think it's perfectly valid to create a chaopter using it.

[hendrik]

Well, some people simply avoid the uniquely Space Wolfy bits... and don't realy think about the WS and BS of their 'Blood Claws'.

 

On your point of successors, however, the Space Wolves DO have successors. They have at least one second founding chapter called the Wolf Brothers, and it's perfectly justifiable to suggest that more may have been created from their gene-seed over the course of the next 20-something foundings.

 

 

Read the battle of the fang and you might change that statement :)

exactly, it's stated pretty clear besides the wolf brothers the space wolves don't have any succesors due to genetic instability.

i myself don't have a problem with people using another codex but i personally prefer them to"fluffifly" their choice established within the existing core fluff. a space marine chapter that claims to be a space marine chapter but instead of humans are eldar is for instance something i would rather think of as silly and not justifyable by the fluff. a space marine chapter using anothers chapters codex isn't a stretch too far imo

[Rikochet]

Maybe not rule out. But I seriously doubt it. To my knowledge, no one has attempted attack on the fang after the thousand sons especially not to steal gene-seed, and I doubt the wolves would let someone keep stores elsewhere and after the battle of the fang they obviously werent gonna attempt a succession again. The only other Fenryka gene-seed out there would be the ones found in the lost companies and the bands that turned to chaos, like the wolves that turned to Hurons cause during the badab war when he boarded their vessel.

 

You could still use the wolves codex as a stand in for another chapter, they just wouldnt count as a successor.

 

But each to their own, Im not trying be difficult, If you can find a good reason then go for it sister, just saying I find it doubtful :)

[phosis21]

I play the Avenging Sons, a chapter with a...checkered past, and use them as Counts As SW's when I want to. Since there is little established fluff on their practices and procedures, I've taken the liberty of filling them in.

 

Since I've got a thing about Arthurian Myth and Knights of the Round/Bretonnia/Knights Templar etc I theme my force around that.

 

Blood Claws and any of their derivatives are Errant Knights, fresh Marines required to prove themselves before earning the title of Knight (Enter the Grey Hunters).

 

The Long Fang thing is pretty simply an organizational and doctrinal question. Sure my squad isn't 10 strong, but when do you see C:SM take Dev's nowadays anyway?!? I don't even really address that issue.

 

The Fenrisian Wolves are Warhounds or Hunting Hounds as were popular in the era of Knights.

 

And Thunderwolf Mounts are something along the lines of the Cyber Mastiff as seen in Inquisitor, but sized to ride. I use the Chaos Knight horse, with some liberal shaving or green-stuff to get rid of any Chaos Iconography.

 

There's a pretty heavy amount of conversion work in my force to make my marines MINE, but I think the SWs have such a varied and FUN codex,when it came out the fact that my marines weren't grey was NOT going to keep me from playing with that book.

[Rikochet]

I play the Avenging Sons, a chapter with a...checkered past, and use them as Counts As SW's when I want to. Since there is little established fluff on their practices and procedures, I've taken the liberty of filling them in.

 

Since I've got a thing about Arthurian Myth and Knights of the Round/Bretonnia/Knights Templar etc I theme my force around that.

 

Blood Claws and any of their derivatives are Errant Knights, fresh Marines required to prove themselves before earning the title of Knight (Enter the Grey Hunters).

 

The Long Fang thing is pretty simply an organizational and doctrinal question. Sure my squad isn't 10 strong, but when do you see C:SM take Dev's nowadays anyway?!? I don't even really address that issue.

 

The Fenrisian Wolves are Warhounds or Hunting Hounds as were popular in the era of Knights.

 

And Thunderwolf Mounts are something along the lines of the Cyber Mastiff as seen in Inquisitor, but sized to ride. I use the Chaos Knight horse, with some liberal shaving or green-stuff to get rid of any Chaos Iconography.

 

There's a pretty heavy amount of conversion work in my force to make my marines MINE, but I think the SWs have such a varied and FUN codex,when it came out the fact that my marines weren't grey was NOT going to keep me from playing with that book.

 

Now theres a perfect example on how to use the SW codex for something else than wolves :)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Battle of the Fang certainly seals the fate of SW successors.

 

That said, Liber is a better place to discuss fluff justifications for doing Count As Space Wolves.

[Uprising]

How do players with a DIY chapter based on the Space Wolves dex justify the WS and BS3 of their Blood Claw equivalents?

Fluff wise, I mean, how do you reconcile your assault squads being inferior to the rest of your power armoured units?

For my chapter these guys are the new recruits. The scouts objective is too vital to leave to some noobish marines.

 

Same with the Long Fangs being able to fire at two units, yet not being 10 man strong.

silimar to the space wolves only the oldest become a Dev. I really don`t need them running at the enemy to hit them in the face with their missle launchers. :)

 

Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves?

I use raptors for my Fenrisian wolves and my marines ride tyrannosaurs and other large carnivores.

 

Space Wolves have no successors, so I'm just wondering how folk who base their chapter on the SW dex work around all the very unique SW qualities?

Basically they got maroon on a planet and went crazy.

[Warsmith IV]

Maybe not rule out. But I seriously doubt it. To my knowledge, no one has attempted attack on the fang after the thousand sons especially not to steal gene-seed, and I doubt the wolves would let someone keep stores elsewhere and after the battle of the fang they obviously werent gonna attempt a succession again.

 

I'm fairly sure the Thousand Sons have tried another attack on the Fang at least one more time, mentioned in one of the Space Wolf Novels. Also there was that rogue Cardinal chap mentioned in Twelve Wolves from Legends of the Space Marines. Although I do believe neither got anywhere useful. The Dark Eldar, however, were caught red-handed in the Fenris system carrying out experiments on captured aspirants and possibly trying to clone Russ (in the timeline in Codex: Dark Eldar), so there's certainly a possibility that they got away with some, leaving reneagade Marines using C:SW a reasonable possibility.

 

There is almost certainly SW genetic material on Terra, as that's where all the Legions were born to begin with and it's rumoured they still have the gene-seed of the excommunicated legions.

 

Someone at my LGS is planning on using C:SW for pre-heresy Iron Warriors, avoiding particularly Wolfy stuff and focussing on Grey Hunters (who are a combination of ranged and assault, just like the Iron Warriors) and Long Fangs (self-explanatory): This is his WIP Army List.

[Antaro Torias]

As far as I am aware the Space Wolves indeed do not have any descendent chapters, but seeing as the models are without a doubt the most decorative of the current Games Workshop Space Marine lines I can understand why people want to use them. How they justify it is entirely their business, as long as their opponent knows what they are up against.

 

Oh by the way,

 

You've dropped actual reality for pretend, yet you hold onto pretend as though it is real. That is some special thinking going on right there!

:P Sigged...

[MonSTeR]

To me it's about crafting plausible "counts as" units. A bit of imagination and hey presto.

 

I do prefer fluff that comes from a completely different angle rather than something that goes completely against the canon of the 40K universe. SW don't really have successors. Don't make your counts as chapter the exception to this rule. It's not big, it's not clever it's not in the spirit of the game. The original idea of having 1000 chapters and missing records was simply to allow folks to invent their own chapters. Follow this flow, don't go against it. Everything is ok apart from that which has already been ruled out. Like SW successors.

 

I like the idea of giant lizard cavalry instead of thunderwolves. Hell you could even have a marine riding a dragon as a "counts as" dreadnaught with heavy flamer breath and las-cannon eye-beams or something, but don't have your SW successor chapter have migrated.

 

What I DON'T (notice the use of capitals) like is unpainted models as "counts as" as a way of riding the SW band wagon. If you're still planning your army fine, but if you're just using it as an excuse to use the cool dex with leftover figures... no.

[Valkyrion]

Interesting stuff.

 

Next question, though it's more a modelling one;

 

How clear is it that your chapter is using the space wolf dex? If you lined your army up would people be able to guess they are counts as space wolves, or do you just model them as normal marines and explain they are counts as space wolves?

 

Do you/should you use any space wolf bits, for example? For clarity.

[Mac the knife]

From my understanding the way GW allows the use of DIY in regards to Space Wolves is the "Lost Company" idea. Your guys are either on the other side of the galaxy and can't return to Fenris or left the Fang to do their own thing and then there of course is the "lost in the warp" idea which is always popular. While you can make and paint your minis how you choose and play them using any PA codex you want as long as basic rules such as WYSIWYG then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

For example my SW force is standard SW grey except for the Terminator WG. My justification? The suits were used by DA during the during the mad dash to terra. A contingent of SW and DA were seperated and cut off for a few centuries and merged into one fighting force. The descendants of this company paint their TDA green in honor of the centuries of combined service with the DA in the closing days of the heresy. (actual reason? I got bored painting grey and wanted a Wolfguard force in TDA)

 

Though i doubt you even need a fluff excuse just call em a lost company and jump right in :D