gil galed Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 So, my previous IA for my chapter had a fight with them and the GK against some lovely chaos cultists (a real table top battle). However current fluff suggests imperial guard get killed and space marines get mind wiped when such events occur. Given the blurb about the blood angels it suggests even first founding chapters aren't trusted enough not to escape the wipe. So, this being the case, how likely is it that say... my chapter master and chief librarian would be allowed to keep their memories while everyone else gets wiped? ~Gil :wallbash: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I would say it would depend upon the severity of the encounter and the Inquisitors involved. If you had, say, daemons that needed to be shown the door then perhaps not, even with relatively lenient Inquisitors, but if it's cultists or Chaos Marines I would think things would be far more vague and rely upon the Inquisitor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Well, with Logan running around with a reforged Daemon Weapon, and numerous anti 'Chaos' crusades/incounters in the other marine dexes, it seems none do. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Off the top of my head: 1. Inquisitors and other important staff in the three ordos. 2. I expect the high-ranking chiefs of many chapters know of them and can retain their memories: Logan was able to call upon them during Armageddon. The Exorcists share a close relationship with the Grey Knights, providing info on potential recruits etc. 3. IIRC the Sororitas know of them too according to the GK omnibus (ugh). 4. If the Sororitas do know of them I'd imagine Deathwatch are in the know too. Perhaps it's an inter-ordos thing... There maybe other examples. To to answer your question, as veterans of countless campaigns who have proven their worth, I believe your chiefs would be safe with the knowledge like many others. Only your marine squads would be mind-wiped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You think someone like Logan Grimmnar would allow any of his Wolves to be mindwiped? I'm sure the onyl way that would happen is if he was wiped along with them. Besides, seemingly every Wolf knows of the origin of his Axe, I'm sure it's boasted about over every flagon of ale drunk! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 If it's just Chaos Cultists then Mindwipe would not be necessary. Presence of Grey Knights would also not be necessary. If, however, the Grey Knights showed up to deal with a Daemonic threat your Marines were unaware of, dealt with it and then helped out with cleaning up the cultists, then you could fight along the Grey Knights with no mindwipe. As far as I'm aware the mindwipe is to do with the Daemonic threat (i.e: The Blood Angels were fighting Ka'Banda and friends) rather than knowledge of the Grey Knights existence. I rekon most Chapter Masters know about them, but would almost never ask for aid from them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shan vener Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 well also the blood angels apparently are on VERY good terms with the grey knights so it seems to depend on the situation. for intance the BA have had a long history witk Ka'bandha and that baal is under threat of daemonic invasion it isn't likely that they would be mind wiped. (it's good to be a BA and a GK player. so many fluffy fights) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impactwinter Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 According to the fluff the mind-wipe is mostly necessary where sanity-blasting daemon shenanigans occur, and the GK have to bust out their "big guns" to combat it. Much of the GK armory is borderline tech-heresy, which just reinforces the need to keep the common soldiery from knowing too much about either the Ruinous Power or the GK's methods of combating them. But it does say that several Space Marine chapters with a close history of working with the =I= are allowed to retain at least some knowledge of the GK's existence. That probably means higher ranking officers are left untampered, and not the rank-and-file. I wonder if the mind-wipe is a complete reboot, or if the GK just remove the knowledge and memory of the battle... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2784960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
embalancer Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think the GK comes under things that only Chapter masters are meant to know so Dante and Logan probably know the truth about the grey knights. Chapters that regularly cross paths with the GK are probably exempt like the ones that give aspriants to them like the sliver skulls as mind wiping is a dangerous and damaging process Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Well interestingly enough a lot of old "fluff" still stands so there are a lot of marines who know of the chapters existence(perhaps the =][= just Wishes they were only known to an elite group?). I mean there are a pair of Ultramarines I can think of who were personally pardoned by a group of knights, even though they went all rambo on a Daemon World. Or! Take this for thought. Chapter A helps the Knights to defeat Deamonic Incursion B. After the victory and Daemonic Incursion B is thwarted Chapter A is Mindwiped. The Knights then give Chapter A a written and somewhat truncated but still accurate history of the victory. That way Chapter A is spared the Sanity-Blasting memories of Daemonic Incursion B but retains knowledge of why 60+ marines just disappeared. Fits eh? <_< =]D[= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 According to the fluff the mind-wipe is mostly necessary where sanity-blasting daemon shenanigans occur, and the GK have to bust out their "big guns" to combat it. Much of the GK armory is borderline tech-heresy, which just reinforces the need to keep the common soldiery from knowing too much about either the Ruinous Power or the GK's methods of combating them. But it does say that several Space Marine chapters with a close history of working with the =I= are allowed to retain at least some knowledge of the GK's existence. That probably means higher ranking officers are left untampered, and not the rank-and-file. I wonder if the mind-wipe is a complete reboot, or if the GK just remove the knowledge and memory of the battle... Not to mention that, when it comes to sanity-blasting horrors, there are obviously purity-maintaining reasons for the mind-wipe, since the big nasty daemons can seriously taint pretty much anyone who isn't incorruptible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don’t get mind wiping. It use to be that if you saw a Daemon then you got mind wiped (by a bolt round for mortals and by techno-stuff for astartes). Then they changed the fluff so that every army and its dog has fought off a daemon invasion or dozen Now with the rebranded Grey Knights they are mind wiping again. So a marine army fights a daemon invasion and the Grey Knights show up at the end, and helps finish it off. They turn to the marines and calmly explain that for the good of the Imperium they have to be mind wiped to contain the horror. To which the marines reply “This is the third daemonic invasion we have stopped this year.” What do the Grey do? Start looking at the data logs to see what other marines in the chapter have seen daemons and find them? Mind scrub the entire chapter to stop the awkward conversations at the chapter feast days “Tell us again about how you dealt with the daemon prince Niq’Dri-Ka-Ka-Poth.” “The what now?” “your amazing victory, the epic you told last month?” “Sorry you have the wrong guy. And what is a daemon prince?” Also if they mind-scrub everyone they must come across chapters who will refuse to allow the mind wipe on the basis of who-the-heck-are-you If some dudes appear in a tricked out strike cruiser saying they have to mind wipe me and my men for what I have seen and the reason I don’t know about all of this is because everyone who has seen them has been mind wiped. Then I would tell them to frak off, by means of a spread of vortex torpedoes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm with spu00sed. The new fluff is a bit dodgy here; the whole "few to none even know they exist/they're rumors/believed to be myths" and yet Astartes are willing to allow these pretty look-alikes to mind wipe them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 As spu00sed said, the background material on this has changed much over the years, with strict standards applied early in the game, that became lax and all but forgotten over the years. In recent codices one would guess that the existence of Chaos and Daemons was common knowledge in the Imperium, with every Regiment and Chapter fighting off Chaos incursions on a routine basis. I was honestly surprised that Ward brought back the old fluff on this practice. Unfortunately, it is really impossible at thus point to reconcile the differences between various material on this issue. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 As spu00sed said, the background material on this has changed much over the years, with strict standards applied early in the game, that became lax and all but forgotten over the years. In recent codices one would guess that the existence of Chaos and Daemons was common knowledge in the Imperium, with every Regiment and Chapter fighting off Chaos incursions on a routine basis. I was honestly surprised that Ward brought back the old fluff on this practice. Unfortunately, it is really impossible at thus point to reconcile the differences between various material on this issue. Valerian Thus my long-standing policy towards any Ward-written codex; have fun with the generally balanced rules, and don't even read the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Broad mind-wipes could easily leave someone permanently fried. Consequently mind-wiping Space Marines is likely a very targeted process that obscures only key details like the technology and orders of battle of the Grey Knights, the True Names of Daemons, details of occult ritae, sanity-destructive blasphemies. There's also probably an accompanying tech-wipe of Machine Spirits and recording devices to remove such details. I seriously doubt the Emperor's Finest are left standing around in a puddle of their own drool wondering where the last 6 months and half their battle-brothers went. - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
embalancer Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 As spu00sed said, the background material on this has changed much over the years, with strict standards applied early in the game, that became lax and all but forgotten over the years. In recent codices one would guess that the existence of Chaos and Daemons was common knowledge in the Imperium, with every Regiment and Chapter fighting off Chaos incursions on a routine basis. I was honestly surprised that Ward brought back the old fluff on this practice. Unfortunately, it is really impossible at thus point to reconcile the differences between various material on this issue. Valerian Thus my long-standing policy towards any Ward-written codex; have fun with the generally balanced rules, and don't even read the fluff. I think it does say something about the codex if the thing that pisses most people off is the fluff for once Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Broad mind-wipes could easily leave someone permanently fried. Consequently mind-wiping Space Marines is likely a very targeted process that obscures only key details like the technology and orders of battle of the Grey Knights, the True Names of Daemons, details of occult ritae, sanity-destructive blasphemies. There's also probably an accompanying tech-wipe of Machine Spirits and recording devices to remove such details. I seriously doubt the Emperor's Finest are left standing around in a puddle of their own drool wondering where the last 6 months and half their battle-brothers went. - Marty Lund The old fluff was that it completely wiped them clean, even leaving the Marines unable to feed themselves. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I would just ignore this fluff completely, as it's a wholly idiotic piece of fluff. You have, on the one hand, the greatest warriors the galaxy knows. Forged in battle, deadly through long years of training and experience, and you wipe their minds? No. Nobody who wasn't tainted by Chaos would willingly do something so harmful to the Imperium's fighting forces. I choose to ignore this piece of fluff, for my part. I rather like imagining that the Imperium isn't run by drooling morons or traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I have to agree; when it comes to mind-wipes about the most I would accept is having seriously dangerous knowledge specifically removed, like not remembering the ritual those cultists summoned up a bunch of daemons, or the True Names of any of the daemons summoned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I would just ignore this fluff completely, as it's a wholly idiotic piece of fluff. You have, on the one hand, the greatest warriors the galaxy knows. Forged in battle, deadly through long years of training and experience, and you wipe their minds? No. Nobody who wasn't tainted by Chaos would willingly do something so harmful to the Imperium's fighting forces. Well, in all fairness, the idea behind this particular practice was that it was way better for the safety of the Imperium, and the sanctity of the Adeptus Astartes arm of it's fighting forces to minwipe those exposed and start their training from scratch, than to risk the exposed to the corruption and vile promises of the Chaos gods. Remember, the Horus Heresy that nearly tore the Imperium apart was started with relatively benign exposure to such entities. So, it isn't necessarily bad or I'll-conceived fluff, it just can't be reconciled with so many instances of more recent material that completely disregards the necessity of the procedure. Regards, V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar_Blackmane Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I wouldn't take some parts of the new fluff too seriously. Sometimes Ward exaggerates with his stuff, for example with the whole "THE GREY KNIGHTSSS KILLED OVERZ 3 BILLION PEOPLE TO SILENCE A COMPZANY OF STORM TROOPAS WHO FOUGHTS WITH GRHAY KNIGHTHS ON AHMAGEDDON!". Facts like that the Storm Troopers probably never knew who they were fighting alongside with and considering that they used to be in Hellbreach hive maybe 40 or 50 members of the company are left alive just get ignored. Certain authors sometimes just want to make their fluff uber awesum and don't think much about reality just like with the Hydra armoured company which had a kill/death ratio of 99999:1 or the fact that only one of 1 million neophytes shipped to Titan becomes a Grey Knight (if that was the case they wouldn't use whole delegations to hand pick recruits and would have to take every single psyker the black ships find no matter their sanity/power level to get such an insane amount of psykers together). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Mindwiping is not only executed to remove the memory of daemons from the subjects but even to preserve Grey Knight secrecy. There are several chapter who are trusted enough by the Inquisitor to work close with Ordo Malleus. Few of them have even a direct connection with GK, providing recruits or fighting alongside them. In such case the Chapter Master would be aware of GK's existence. If you describe your DIY chapter as one with close relationship with Inquisition, like Exorcists, you should be fine :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231484-who-doesnt-get-mindwiped/#findComment-2785957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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