sponsra Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 1. Horus enters the crashed ship on the Moon of Davin. Supposidly Erebus had it all planned: The warmaster must be wounded by that nurgle-deamon so he can be taken to the tribespeople on Davin and there tempted by chaos when he is weakened. How could Erebus have known that Horus would face the deamon alone, without aid from his astartes? The fight seemed pretty even, how could he have known that Horus would be wounded and not killed or victorious without a scratch? Was the deamon so powerful that it controlled the fight i detail and then let itself be killed? Sounds weird with a deamon that much mightier than the Warmaster, I always figuered Primarchs would beat even greater deamons without much effort... 2. Erebus snatches that sword from the interex. Is that the same sword the nurgledeamon uses to wound Horus? 3. Why is Horus so bitchy towards Loken and wont let him enter the ship with him to fight Temba? Is he already "under the influence"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 1: Horus was wounded, which isn't unheard amongst the primarchs. He was actually only scratched and had it not been a daemon weapon he'd have healed within minutes. It didn't matter that Horus was alone, but Erebus was banking on Horus' pride + the machinations of chaos to ensure that Horus was hit. He only needed a scratch and he'd fall. Sanguinius, for one, suffered terribly at the hands of a blood thirster. Daemons are far more powerful in the fluff than they are in the rules. 2: Yes. 3: Can't remember, sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2784843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Re 3, iirc, Horus was already partly under the influence of Erebus - eg letting himself be provoked into marching off to war headlong in front of everyone by him, and I think Erebus may have already started to insinuate against Loken and the other more upright members of the legion. Plus Horus was damned ****ed off with Temba and was pretty snappy at anyone who suggested a measured approach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2784964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 1. Primarchs and Greater Daemons appear to be a pretty even match in most cases so a Great Unclean One would normally be at least a non-trivial fight for Horus. Given that this one was armed with a weapon that was specifically designed to kill Horus it became that much less trivial. 2. Yes, it was the same sword. 3. Erebus had provoked Horus into this whole situation by playing on his pride and dismay that anyone would prove disloyal to him. He wasn't thinking straight and wanted to confront Temba personally. By the way, anyone else notice how that whole scenario is a miniature version of Horus vs The Emperor at the end of the Heresy? Very cleverly written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2784972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Remember, the machinations of Erebus go back a 100 years, as the Luna Wolves already had a tradition of Lodges, which were stated by Erebus. Logan was from outside the Lodges, and therefore not under Erebus' influence at the time of the novel. Horus falling was part of a 100 year plan set in motion on Cadia, by Lorgar and his lieutenants, following the instructions of the Chaos Gods to bring about a specific outcome. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2785561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The warrior lodges came from Davin IIRC not Erebus. And it couldn't be 100 years ago since the corruption only started after the Emperor reprimanded Lorgar for worshipping him. Remember, the machinations of Erebus go back a 100 years, as the Luna Wolves already had a tradition of Lodges, which were stated by Erebus. Logan was from outside the Lodges, and therefore not under Erebus' influence at the time of the novel. Horus falling was part of a 100 year plan set in motion on Cadia, by Lorgar and his lieutenants, following the instructions of the Chaos Gods to bring about a specific outcome. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2785787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Remember, the machinations of Erebus go back a 100 years, as the Luna Wolves already had a tradition of Lodges, which were stated by Erebus. Logan was from outside the Lodges, and therefore not under Erebus' influence at the time of the novel. Horus falling was part of a 100 year plan set in motion on Cadia, by Lorgar and his lieutenants, following the instructions of the Chaos Gods to bring about a specific outcome. SJ The events on Colchis where the Emperor reprimands the Wordbearers takes place 43 years before Istvaan III The Lodges are inspired of he tribes of Davin, but the Luna wolves and Word bearers fought on Davin together, so Erebus could have fueled/inspired the installation of lodges in the Luna Wolves legion. But I wonder if the Word Bearers (Erebus) knew about the Interex and the Anatheme or if they just siezed the oppurtunity... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2785832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 IIRC it says that the Luna Wolves first fought on Davin 6 decades before they returned. So the lodges were formed in the Luna Wolves about 15 years before the Emperor's reprimand of the Wordbearers. 3. Loken had already started to be sidelined by Horus prior to the Davin incident, as Loken's role in the Mournival was as a naysmith, and Erebus was feeding Horus' rampant ego basically telling him that "the Warmaster is so powerful everyone should be a sycophant". IIRC Loken and Torgaddon were given the role of rearguard in the assault on Temba's ship as punishment for counselling caution rather than fuelling the Warmaster's injured pride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2785868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Another question then: When Horus is having visions on Davin, one of them takes him to a so called shrine world. There he sees a statue of the emperor surrounded by the loyal primarchs. This implies that Erebus/chaos/whoever orhcestrates the visions knew, at this point already, who would turn and who wouldn´t. If I remember correctly, later, Fulgrim tries to convince Ferrus Manus to join them and fails. I find that a bit weird... Not only that Fulgrim didn´t know, but that "chaos" knew beforehand who would turn ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2787450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Fulgrim turned before Horus, but the point of that part isn't that chaos knows who turns, it's that those primarchs are venerated above all others and he isn't there. Why isn't he there, he's the best and brightest, etc. These visions are subjective and play on a persons paranoia/beliefs - that is a vision of Horus' paranoia and, for want of a better word, childishness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2787881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 1. Horus enters the crashed ship on the Moon of Davin. Supposidly Erebus had it all planned: The warmaster must be wounded by that nurgle-deamon so he can be taken to the tribespeople on Davin and there tempted by chaos when he is weakened. How could Erebus have known that Horus would face the deamon alone, without aid from his astartes? The fight seemed pretty even, how could he have known that Horus would be wounded and not killed or victorious without a scratch? Was the deamon so powerful that it controlled the fight i detail and then let itself be killed? Sounds weird with a deamon that much mightier than the Warmaster, I always figuered Primarchs would beat even greater deamons without much effort... It seems somewhat chaotic, where people stand in the whole cosmic order of greatness. After all, Fulgrim killed an Avatar with little effort, as did Marneus Calgar at Orar's Sepulchre, and Avatars are comparable to Greater Daemons. Then again, Sanguinius was wounded by Ka 'Banha at Signus Prime. I suppose one could argue that Ka'Bandha was an especially powerful example of a Bloodthrister, and that the Greater Daemon of Nurgle Horus fought was the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2787907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 When did Horus fight a greater daemon of Nurgle? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2788120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 When did Horus fight a greater daemon of Nurgle? :P I guess people (myself included) assume that´s what Temba was "posessed" by... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2788154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 When did Horus fight a greater daemon of Nurgle? :P I think they're referring to the daemonic beastie that had possessed Temba in the stricken battleship -- the one that wounded him with the Anathame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2788155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 When did Horus fight a greater daemon of Nurgle? :tu: I think they're referring to the daemonic beastie that had possessed Temba in the stricken battleship -- the one that wounded him with the Anathame. Even if it wasn't a Greater Daemon (though the description of it being so obese that it's legbones broke trying to support it seems to indicate as much) it was still a ferociously powerful daemon to be able to wound a primarch (arguably the primarch) in such a manner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2789387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I took Tembas state as daemonic gifts from Nurgle rather than a possession Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2789437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Tembas had been blessed by Nurgle, he wasnt posessed as such. People are making too much of things..... the actual blow that caught Horus was very minor, nothing to get excited about, it was the fact that it was anathame that did the damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2789520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Didn't the Anathame also seek out its target? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2789757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Didn't the Anathame also seek out its target? Not sure about seeking it out but it did restructure itself to inflict a wound specifically designed to kill it's target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2790804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malamut Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Another question then: When Horus is having visions on Davin, one of them takes him to a so called shrine world. There he sees a statue of the emperor surrounded by the loyal primarchs. This implies that Erebus/chaos/whoever orhcestrates the visions knew, at this point already, who would turn and who wouldn´t. If I remember correctly, later, Fulgrim tries to convince Ferrus Manus to join them and fails. I find that a bit weird... Not only that Fulgrim didn´t know, but that "chaos" knew beforehand who would turn ... Chaos visions are non linear, thy can show you the past, the future and every possibility. And it's highly manipulative. The vision of hte emperor surrounded with the 9 current loyal primarchs was just the possibility that would make it easier to turn the Warmaster. Chaos didn't know it would become the truth, Chaos saw a tool and used it. Just like it uses Magnus' attempt to reach the Warmaster by isntilling a feeling of being hunted? The fact that Magnus choose the wolfform only helped the Warmaster alienate himself from his previous "incarnation" of the Primarch of the Luna Wolves to the Warmaster leading the "Sons of Horus" Anathemae are created to kill a specific person/creature. Since they are the product of an ancient alien (possibly chaos influenced) race suggests the Chaos gods acknowledged the possibility of a creature rising up to them (the Emperor) and that they might corrupt his favoured son. And had this specific sword created to wound (not to kill) Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2795460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Anathemae are created to kill a specific person/creature. Since they are the product of an ancient alien (possibly chaos influenced) race suggests the Chaos gods acknowledged the possibility of a creature rising up to them (the Emperor) and that they might corrupt his favoured son. And had this specific sword created to wound (not to kill) Horus. That's not how I read it. The Anathame seems to be able to be 'programmed' to be the bane of a specific target as opposed to being specifically forged for that one target alone. When Loken and Torgaddon go back to the moon of Davin and retreive the weapon I seem to recall it responding when one of them mentions the others name whilst holding it. The impression given was that the weapon had been 'reprogrammed' to seek a new target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2795506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 For some reason I have the Anathame down as being a space monkey weapon, but I can't remember why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2796105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 And another thing, is it just me or are there alot of typos and other small misstakes in the BL-books compared to other books? For example in Galaxy in flames in the Coral city Vipus gives an order and some guy in Locasta squad answers "yes captain" even though Vipus is a sergant. Also in the same section, Ferrus Manus is refered to as Ferrus Magnus... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2798897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 If you're a bit of an English pedant, like me, then it's probably best to avoid the Imperial Armour books. They are riddled with typos, punctuation errors, continuity errors and so on. That said, in a book of 100,000+ words then it's clear that some are going to slip through. What is equally clear is that BL stuff is proofread, FW stuff isn't. DOWIIR: the Inquisitor is from the Ordo Herecticus (sic). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2800807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 And another thing, is it just me or are there alot of typos and other small misstakes in the BL-books compared to other books? For example in Galaxy in flames in the Coral city Vipus gives an order and some guy in Locasta squad answers "yes captain" even though Vipus is a sergant. Also in the same section, Ferrus Manus is refered to as Ferrus Magnus... Stacks of them..... In Fallen Angels, Brother Sergeant Kohl's Tactical Squad meltagunner goes from being Brother Marthes in one chapter, to Brother Vardus in the next, and back to Marthes a chapter later - that's just shoddy editing! Saul Tarvitz effectively changes rank depending on which book you are reading - in Eisenstein and Galaxy in Flames he is First Captain, whilst in False Gods and Fulgrim he is just a Captain (of 10th Company).... Just 2 that spring to mind immediately...there are lots more! <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231490-re-reading-false-gods/#findComment-2800860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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