Brother Biskit Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Does anyone know the process the Blood Angels use to choose new Captains? Are they chosen from the veterans of the company or are they taken from the first and asked to lead another company? Who chooses and how? Just what is the "career path" of an Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 In the tactical squad fluff in the codex it states that the Senior Tac Sergeant takes over when the captain dies. Of course, later it says being the the Honor Guard is the path to command. And logic says they would want Veterans (say like Vanguard or Sternguard or Terminator Sergeants) to take command. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2784874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 In the current codex, Captains are chosen by lottery, with the winner getting to put his feet up and relax in the knowledge that he won't be called upon to fight a battle anytime soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2784877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 In the current codex, Captains are chosen by lottery, with the winner getting to put his feet up and relax in the knowledge that he won't be called upon to fight a battle anytime soon. True this... and yes the codex does not make clear the BA progression, though one would have thought that if the Senior Tac Sergeant was selected he would be a veteran and had experience in the 1st Company and that the HG details is more the exception rather than the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2784918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The sergeant may also be a temporary role filler to make due in battle until there is time for the pomp and circumstance required to select a more proper captain. Why no use a member of the honour guard? Because it leaves them there to continue to defend and advise their new acting captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I can't vouch for the current fluff as it's been retconned more times than I can remember. However the career progression for every chapter has usually been along these lines: 1. Inducted as a scout, serve under experienced sergeant until the black carapace is installed and you are promoted to a full marine. 2. Do 'tours' first as a devastator then as an assault marine, before finally being inducted into a tactical squad. At this point certain marines will be selected for the chaplaincy, or training as an apothecary, techmarine or some such. 3. Promotion to squad leader, leading a combat squad of four marines and acting as second in command to a sergeant. 4. Promotion to squad sergeant, leading nine other marines. 5. Potential promotion to first company, serving in either a vanguard or sternguard veteran squad. Potentially returned to serve in a company command squad/honour guard if identified as a potential leader. 6. Promotion to veteran sergeant and either returned to a regular company, to mentor an inexperienced squad, or serve as sergeant of a veteran squad. 7. Promotion to first sergeant, SIC to a company captain. 8. Promotion to captain, usually of their own company, but sometimes another if that company's first sergeant is too inexperienced or otherwise found wanting. 9. Promotion to first company captain. 10. Promotion to chapter master. This often goes to first captain but he can be passed over for another SO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 unfortunately i'm in the position of disagreeing with both james and agpo... Tho mostly on the technicalities. Career progression used to be scout, then aptitude based on invidual marines abilities, whether to assault or tac or dev. From there, those with aptitude/ability for squad command might go to squad leader then sergeant. Or they may go straight to first company. First company is about fighting ability primarily, not command ability, though most first company members will possess a wealth of tactical experience. From sergeant level, if they possess the ability for company command i suspect they would then go to honour guard to get more experience/ direct observation of a captains role. A senior sergeant who has survived comand squad duty will probably be given command of sub-company actions where the captain is busy elsewhere (while the command squad may not yet have achieved the tactical ability to direct such actions). Should the captain die, command reverts to the senior sergeant, while approval for the position would have to wait till the company returns to the Chapter. As for swapping captains between companies - while there's nothing I can point to directly to argue aginst this, and there certainly are examples where it happens, equally there are times/positions where it wouldnt be appropriate - for example, Sicarius woudl be wasted as First Company Captain, since the First Company rarely fights as a whole, so his ability to fight a company-level engagement would be used less. Equally, a captain might have 200 years seniority over the first company captain, but if his abilities are best used directing the firepower of the 9th Company, then thats where he should be. Ability always trumps any seniority/carrier path progression in a marine chapter that is a functional fighting force - any other way will result in their deaths sooner or later. For eaxmple - Sergeant Lorenzo in Space Hulk, a 650 yr-old veteran, yet still only a sergeant (and not even neccesarily the first sergeant of the first company), becasue thats where his abilities are best used. Or even Sven in the Ragnar series - only ever wanted to be a Grey Hunter, one of the pack - not wanting to be a leader, and more than happy if he never becomes anything more than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Where do the Sanguinary Guard fit into this? Does joining the SG keep a marine from any future leadership positions (other than head of the SG)? Could a Chapter Master ever be selected from the SG? Would a marine ever be pulled from the SG to be a Company Captain (or is that a demotion)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Could they? Maybe, would they? Probably not. Again, selection for Sanguinary Guard would require different criteria for command track/captaincy. Its not that being a Sanguinary Guard would preclude a marine from being chosen as a Captain, but that a marine chosen for the Sanguinary Guard probably doesnt have the required capabilites to be a captain. Equally, a marine already earmarked for possible promotion to high-level command probably wouldnt be asked to join the Sanguinary Guard since it would be a waste of his potential to be a leader. Any marine can kill, not every marine can command. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 SG fit outside of the normal chapter organisation. They are the best of the chapter, the shining examples to which even the captains and possibly even the chapter master himself look up to. They are beasts in combat, courage and insight but arent at their best in command. Thats how i vieuw SG anyway :) also since the amount of SG is limited to the number of suits in the chapter they are the most rare marine to be found in the chapter (oddly enough all the succesors now suddenly have them to ;)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaae Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I wouldn't say Sanguinary Guard is a dead end, but rather a shortcut. Only a very few are selected to serve in the SG. These are the best of the best, shining examples of what it means to be a Blood Angel and a Son of Sanguinius. They would be mostly taken from the First Company or Honor Guards, though the rare member may have shown the qualities necessary before a promotion to those illustrious positions. For the Sanguinary Guard, they are no long in the normal line of progression, but can eventually become the Head of the SG, and I think that such an individual would be eligible to be selected to Chapter Master. So, for a marine in the BA, you are either a marine or a leader, and the select few are taken to the Sanguinary Guard, the Librarians, Techmarines, Chaplains, ect. While I have no "proof" to support this theory, it does make sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I certainly think the Herald of Sanguinius (head of the Sanguinary Guard) would be an excellent candidate for chapter master. If we take the Sanguinary Guard to be the badasses they are in the fluff, then commanding thirty of them must be as powerful a force as a hundred other marines and in some ways require greater leadership potential. Plus the very first chapter master of the Blood Angels was a Sanguinary Guard himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I'd actually think the opposite. The Sanguinary Guard are highly skilled warriors, but they are not leaders or tacticians. They aren't used to handling forces on a battle-wide scale, performing diplomatic relations with other forces, or just being an inspiring hero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA.Rauk Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I'd actually think the opposite. The Sanguinary Guard are highly skilled warriors, but they are not leaders or tacticians. They aren't used to handling forces on a battle-wide scale, performing diplomatic relations with other forces, or just being an inspiring hero. I agree more with this- at least in some of the more in depth writing, The Sanguinary Guard are held apart from the Chapter Organization and between them and the Death company are the only ways the Blood Angels leave the full path of the Codex Astartes. In thus, they are more or less promoted into the Guard and left in it until either A) They die, or B ) The spot for the leader of the Sanguinary Guard vacates and you are the most veteran member of the Order. (And even this would be decided by the Chapter Master himself.) And in previous writings, it seemed more the Chapter Master chooses his successor from the Captains in who will fulfill the role in the best way, Captains are chosen from Veterans (Which, if you remember- Sergeants are Veterans as well) and so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfDeathXIII Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I personally think the Sanguinary Guard are all-rounders. Capable of leading as well as fighting. Wasn't the successor of Sanguinius the only survivor of the Sanguinary Guard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA.Rauk Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Azkaellon, who was that Herald of the Sanguinary Guard (The leader of the Order) was ordered to remain on Terra by Sanguinius so he could help the Chapter and to carry on the duties of the Sanguinary Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2785881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Again - a specific individual. Given orders by his primarch. And there was still all those issues before he stepped in and told them to stop quibbling the details and do what another primarch had said. Not taking anything away from him, but was he leading or following orders still? And being Sanguinius' Guard he most likely had a good chance to learn directly from the primarch. Any veteran could command on some level, simply due to combat experience, but that doesnt maek them better than a marine who's been specifically trained in advanced tactics, and has a natural aptitude for it. Waht sort of message does it give out if you take your marine (who's supposed to be the embodiment of the chapters spirit) and remove him from his position as a member of his primarchs guard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231494-how-are-captains-chosen/#findComment-2786440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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