Orphus Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 G'day traitors and heretics of the B&C, I'll get right to it. I had a game with an undivided player who was coming back into wargaming after some time. Because he didn't really get the concept of points we used nearly everything. The one major thing that stopped the game being fun was his insistence to use pretty much every chaos special character apart from Lucius and Fabius to even out the armies. So my joint Space Wolves/Tau army was facing off against an army including Huron, Ahriman, ...erm Nurgle Scythe guy :tu: ( whoever) , Kharne and Abbadon and a sorcerer. This made the points close however from the get go I felt the illegal overuse of characters would tip the game way over. I was right. I know any special characters if used correctly can nearly single handedly win games especially potent ones such as those of Chaos. Disregarding player ethics and taking into accept Chaos HQ's, what are they worth for what they can do? Still feeling miffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm not entitely certain what it is you're asking. If you'd stuck to the rules of how the game is supposed to be played, he could only have fielded two of those characters to begin with. If you're asking what Chaos specials "do" for the army, the answer is "nothing". The only one that grants anything to any Chaos unit, and you still have to pay for the upgrades, is Fabius Bile, and he didn't play him. The other Chaos ICs are selfish stand-alones with a bunch of special rules that only apply to themselves. Abaddon is the most dangerous because he can't be insta-killed, but the others are all dead on a Str 8 AP 2 smack to the face and one failed usually-5++ Invul Save. They don't get retinues like Wolf Guard or Command Squads, so they can never hide from being singled out in CC, which is where virtually all of them have to be to really shine on the field. Your Tau outshoot them, your Wolves outfight them. Heck, one Njal Stormcaller or a couple of roving Rune Priests could have basically made Ahriman and that extra Sorcerer just expensive multi-Wound Chaos Marines. If you're asking about points, every single one clocks in at over 100 and go as high as 275, depending on who we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 When you compare most chaos ICs they are overcosted and nigh useless for the points. Really the only ones worth it are Khârn, sometimes Abaddon, and some people would argue Typhus. Even then DPs are usually much much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It sounds like an unbalanced game to begin with and nowhere near the realm of 'standard games'. Ask him if you can field all SW special characters next time and duke it out properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don't think the chaos characters are all that... but FOC is there for a reason... Maybe next time you should make him player a smaller points value game using the FOC... & make sure he understands the rules. The chaos characters are not broken but you were almost certainly not ready. I'm sure with unlimited models (so you could take any options you wanted) you could have made a balanced SW army that could beat them... When random 10 year olds play games they put down random models and play... in squads that are not legal... this combined with not knowing the rules well means the game takes forever... Often it is unbalanced... so if he hasn't played for a while now is the time to be firm and say... hey fella as you might not be up to date with the rules lets play a 1,000pt game and check you are keeping up with everything. If he is doing ok at that level then play whatever you would consider a standard points value... Just make sure you stick to standard rules unless you have a specific reason. I've played against SBFs from various codices in big games but I knew what was coming... for PUGs... I don't suggest it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 If you let him take all the SC's then it will be unbalanced. However, when it comes down to normal FOC lists, the only SC's that are really good are Khârn and MAYBE Abbaddon. I've tried throwing all the other SC's into my lists here there and everywhere against opponents recently, and Typhus is an awful character (Terminator Armour means a non-fearless bodyguard and a huge target for picking out with fists), Ahriman is a waste of points (he's a plain old sorcerer who pays 100pts to be able to fire 3 powers in one go, which you won't ever really use), Lucius leaves a lot to be desired (he looks great on paper, but he's a really ineffective fighter) and Huron and Bile just don't really fit in anywhere (Huron's Fist means he's going to only ever get one round of fighting against a unit with fist, and against anything else he's a waste of points, and Bile's "enhance" doesn't enhance ANYTHING near what it costs to do it) Give me my Daemon Prince and Twin Claws Khorne Lord anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 considering a SW+tau army could legaly take 6HQs unlike chaos , I find this very amusing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 considering a SW+tau army could legaly take 6HQs unlike chaos , I find this very amusing . Come to think of it i did have 4... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 If you let them get to your lines and into combat, you deserved to lose. CSM characters arent overpowered. You agreed to let him play with ~1000pts of characters, and you lost. You have no right to complain, seeing as you has 4HQ choices yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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