Should I convert from Vanilla Marines to Space Wolves?

[Reichfaust]

Recently a friend and I were discussing the possibility of changing my fledgling army from Codex: Space Marines to some kind of custom Space Wolves-successor chapter (or something, I know the Space Wolves have no successors... Maybe a splinter chapter, or a chapter who has adopted their combat doctrines?). But I am a little bit torn, because while there are some major advantages over regular marines, there are a few differences I'm not so sure about.

 

 

Scouts: I like 'em, but have had mixed success. I roll two six-man sniper squads, one with a Heavy Bolter and one with a Missile Launcher and Sgt Telion. Telion and the Hellfire HB rounds are cool, but hitting on a 4+ sucks, and most of the time I end up missing every shot before I even get a chance to wound/rend. Most games they just sit in cover, kill nothing, but capture an objective if I'm lucky.

 

The idea of having BS4 Scouts toting sniper rifles is a fantastic one to be sure. But they lose so much in the process... Camo cloaks, Telion, Hellfire rounds, and last but not least--the ability to score! No more backfield campers with a 2+ cover save (thanks to camo cloak/bolster defences) to capture my home objectives...

 

Skyclaw/Swiftclaws: I don't really use Assault Marines, but the lowered BS/WS for an extra charge attack seems pretty balanced so all good. However I like my Space Marine Bikes. I use a Captain with LC/SS on a bike leading a 5 bikers and 1 MM attack bike, and would be sad to see them become BS/WS3 because they are my main melta-delivery platform. I am actually tempted to convert my bikers into counts-as TWC, because holy crap, TWC seem like the best assault unit I've ever heard of.

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry: I have long sought an assault unit as powerful as this, and imho nothing in the SM codex is this deadly. I would roll a 5-man squad, barebones; with 30 rending attacks on the charge (and potentially led by a counts-as canis wolfborn), I honestly don't think they'd need any upgrades.

 

Grey Hunters: So they're better than Vanilla Marines and they cost less? Count me in!

 

Dreadnoughts: Glad to see they're mostly unchanged; however I just bought a Drop Pod and an Ironclad Dreadnought and am sad to see that my Ironclad won't be able to see game time--but I am tempted to convert it to a counts-as Bjorn. Is Bjorn a viable choice in a list? He is insanely expensive.

 

ICs/HQs: Wow. You guys have it good--Njal is fantastic, Ragnar is fantastic, Arjac seems pretty fantastic--I haven't ever used named ICs in my army (except for a counts-as Calgar one time for fun), but there sure a lot of options. Taking 4 HQs seems insane but awesome (seriously, how could you possibly fit this into any list short of 2,500+ points?!)

 

Long Fangs: I already have a couple of Dev squads, and Long Fangs are superior in every way (signum sucks, I always roll 1s on it).

 

But yeah, as I'm sure you know there are a heap of other differences that I haven't listed here--But as Space Wolf players, what are your thoughts? Should I make the change? What other Pros and/or Cons have I overlooked? Your help in this time of uncertainty would be very much appreciated! *raises a horn of ale* Cheers!

[postal105]

Scouts: I like 'em, but have had mixed success. I roll two six-man sniper squads, one with a Heavy Bolter and one with a Missile Launcher and Sgt Telion. Telion and the Hellfire HB rounds are cool, but hitting on a 4+ sucks, and most of the time I end up missing every shot before I even get a chance to wound/rend. Most games they just sit in cover, kill nothing, but capture an objective if I'm lucky.

 

The idea of having BS4 Scouts toting sniper rifles is a fantastic one to be sure. But they lose so much in the process... Camo cloaks, Telion, Hellfire rounds, and last but not least--the ability to score! No more backfield campers with a 2+ cover save (thanks to camo cloak/bolster defences) to capture my home objectives...

 

granted space wolves scouts can not capture objectives they can only contest as there an elite choice not a troop but they gain this for a scout squad 5 with meltagun also as you mentioned the go from bs 3 to bs 4 beacuse scouts are not the space wolfe initiates that is what blood claws are for . using there operate behind lines special rule to pop your opponents tanks like predators and vindicators and any thing else that is just a big nasty tank that sits on or near the back and shoots. you can do that for 85 points space wolves scouts are sneaky and cunning and there operate behind enemy lines makes up for the loss of srg. Telion in my opinion

 

other then that i have no other comment.

[clanfield]

go with the army you love :

 

1 the fluff

2 the look off

3 your comfy useing

 

other wise youll just hop about like a mad hoping thingy from beatleguise and thats prity hopified

[Vantius]

If you really are interested, just pick up a codex and use your marines as proxies. If you like what you experience, go for it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if you mentioned that you appreciate the background of the army, the color scheme, anything of that nature then i would say yes.

 

but as you waxed on about the rule advantanges i would say no.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you mentioned that you appreciate the rule advantages I would say yes.

 

but as you waxed on about the background of the army, the colour scheme, and anything of that nature then I would say no.

 

MW

[hendrik]

if you mentioned that you appreciate the background of the army, the color scheme, anything of that nature then i would say yes.

 

but as you waxed on about the rule advantanges i would say no.

 

WLK

If you mentioned that you appreciate the rule advantages I would say yes.

 

but as you waxed on about the background of the army, the colour scheme, and anything of that nature then I would say no.

 

MW

don't you just love replies like these? ;)

anyway, we've had this debate at least a thousand times and the answer always is your cash, your minis, your ideas. to read more just do a searchy with the words "count as space wolves", i'm pretty sure you'll get lots of topics

[phosis21]

C:SM and C:SW are both unique armies. They play differently and have different strengths. Look at the whole force, rather than individual units.

 

I play Avenging Sons, and I run them as a Codex Space Marines and as Space Wolves. They've both fun, different, and very viable lists.

 

I like playing C:SM as I don't think anyone does Biker Lists better (even Ravenwing, but I've never actually played with/against RW so...).

 

I like playing C:SW because it feels like an epic battle with awesome heroes atop mighty steeds performing the incredible deeds to be sung about for generations in the great hall! They're generally a little shorter ranged (Long Fangs and Razor Spam excepted) and have less opportunity-cost associated with moving (2x Special weapons does not present the same dilemmas as 1 Special, 1 Heavy), which I view as a good thing. The focus of the army seems to be the epic heroes, from the Warrior-Mages (rune priests) raining lightning down on your foes, to the epic Wolf Lords who charge into impossible situations and come out bloodied but victorious. My favorite are the Lone Wolves. Somewhat un-competative in a tournament sense, but they always provide a great story about the battle.

 

A friend of mine who takes them in Term Armor with a Sshield and C-Fist ate like 2 railgun shots and a volley from some fire warriors and simply refused to die before charging and killing a...whatever tank the Tau have Hammerhead? and then the next turn doing it again, and then charging some Railgun Walkers (broadsides??). Then there was another game where he died to las-rifle fire on turn 2. I haven't used them, but I've seen them used to very good effect.

______

 

That probably looks very Pro-Space Wolf doesn't it? My point is, there is a lot of model cross over, but they're two very different armies who play, feel, and fight differently. I have a lot of fun with both, but for different reasons. I hope that this kind of gives you an idea of where I come from, as I made the switch, and did so because SW seemed a little less serious and a little more fluid, which was something I was looking for.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

C:SM and C:SW are both unique armies. They play differently and have different strengths. Look at the whole force, rather than individual units.

 

I play Avenging Sons, and I run them as a Codex Space Marines and as Space Wolves. They've both fun, different, and very viable lists.

 

I like playing C:SM as I don't think anyone does Biker Lists better (even Ravenwing, but I've never actually played with/against RW so...).

 

I like playing C:SW because it feels like an epic battle with awesome heroes atop mighty steeds performing the incredible deeds to be sung about for generations in the great hall! They're generally a little shorter ranged (Long Fangs and Razor Spam excepted) and have less opportunity-cost associated with moving (2x Special weapons does not present the same dilemmas as 1 Special, 1 Heavy), which I view as a good thing. The focus of the army seems to be the epic heroes, from the Warrior-Mages (rune priests) raining lightning down on your foes, to the epic Wolf Lords who charge into impossible situations and come out bloodied but victorious. My favorite are the Lone Wolves. Somewhat un-competative in a tournament sense, but they always provide a great story about the battle.

 

A friend of mine who takes them in Term Armor with a Sshield and C-Fist ate like 2 railgun shots and a volley from some fire warriors and simply refused to die before charging and killing a...whatever tank the Tau have Hammerhead? and then the next turn doing it again, and then charging some Railgun Walkers (broadsides??). Then there was another game where he died to las-rifle fire on turn 2. I haven't used them, but I've seen them used to very good effect.

______

 

That probably looks very Pro-Space Wolf doesn't it? My point is, there is a lot of model cross over, but they're two very different armies who play, feel, and fight differently. I have a lot of fun with both, but for different reasons. I hope that this kind of gives you an idea of where I come from, as I made the switch, and did so because SW seemed a little less serious and a little more fluid, which was something I was looking for.

 

I like your thinking Phosis. A+

 

I'd thought what cross overs could be done for Templars from C:SW, and yours and the fluff reasons are all pretty much spot on. I'd based it from the Bretonnian Knights:

Errant - Blood Claws

of the Realm - Grey Hunters

Grail - Wolf Guard

etc.

 

Now we wouldn't take Rune Priests, of course, but even Thunder Wolf Cavalry look pretty spiffy with a Marine on the back of a de-scummed Chaos warhorse [which is what you've mentioned elsewhere?]

 

Lone Wolves, Wolf Lords and WGBL [boy that name needs to be changed!] all make for decent Champions of the Emperor.

 

+++

 

Your Tau units are correctly named. You and your mate need to stop killing Tau - they are the galaxies only hope!

 

You can run a Lone Wolf in a Rhino/Razor from a Long Fangs pack, hopping onboard on T1, after deploying out of site from the enemy, of course.

[phosis21]

I play the Avenging Sons, a chapter with a...checkered past, and use them as Counts As SW's when I want to. Since there is little established fluff on their practices and procedures, I've taken the liberty of filling them in.

 

Since I've got a thing about Arthurian Myth and Knights of the Round/Bretonnia/Knights Templar etc I theme my force around that.

 

Blood Claws and any of their derivatives are Errant Knights, fresh Marines required to prove themselves before earning the title of Knight (Enter the Grey Hunters).

 

The Long Fang thing is pretty simply an organizational and doctrinal question. Sure my squad isn't 10 strong, but when do you see C:SM take Dev's nowadays anyway?!? I don't even really address that issue.

 

The Fenrisian Wolves are Warhounds or Hunting Hounds as were popular in the era of Knights.

 

And Thunderwolf Mounts are something along the lines of the Cyber Mastiff as seen in Inquisitor, but sized to ride. I use the Chaos Knight horse, with some liberal shaving or green-stuff to get rid of any Chaos Iconography.

 

There's a pretty heavy amount of conversion work in my force to make my marines MINE, but I think the SWs have such a varied and FUN codex,when it came out the fact that my marines weren't grey was NOT going to keep me from playing with that book.

________________________

 

The above is my post from an earlier discussion about Counts As Space Wolves, thank you very much for your kind words Marshal. When I got home I saw someone had linked your BTs on Horseback, a) thats exactly what I'm doing to make Thunderhooves, and B) your dudes look fantastic! The Green-Stuff work is superb

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I play the Avenging Sons, a chapter with a...checkered past, and use them as Counts As SW's when I want to.

There's a pretty heavy amount of conversion work in my force to make my marines MINE, but I think the SWs have such a varied and FUN codex,when it came out the fact that my marines weren't grey was NOT going to keep me from playing with that book.

________________________

 

The above is my post from an earlier discussion about Counts As Space Wolves, thank you very much for your kind words Marshal. When I got home I saw someone had linked your BTs on Horseback, a) thats exactly what I'm doing to make Thunderhooves, and B) your dudes look fantastic! The Green-Stuff work is superb

 

That is the spirit! Use your imagination bro, and create a bit of your on story!

 

You are welcome :)

 

Avenging Sons, they are from the short story from Gav Thorpe, and they kill their Chaplain and the final line is: "Where do we go?" and the Captain responds, something like "Where all renegades go - to the EoT". Am I right?

 

If that is them, do they have other fluff sources?

 

GS makes me crazy B) but thank you ^_^

[Grimtooth]

Phosis and MW don't really count as real replies in this thread so don't listen to their ramblings.

[phosis21]

There's that short story, and also an entry in Imperial Armor III where the 2nd Company gets soundly defeated on Taros by Rebellious PDF and Tau forces.

 

Other than that and the Thorpe short story there's close to nothing out there on them, but they don't come off looking too good, do they B)

 

Enter the Imagination -

 

The "3rd Company" is sort of a Diet Ravenwing, scouring space for information on the Traitorous Third (the dudes that shot their chappy and ran to the EoT). The rest of the battered Chapter has taken to Crusade in an effort to redeem themselves.

 

The Traitorous Third has taken pains not to change their iconography or symbols - they ply the space lanes looting and pillaging and pretty much smearing the name Avenging Son

[Reichfaust]

if you mentioned that you appreciate the background of the army, the color scheme, anything of that nature then i would say yes.

 

but as you waxed on about the rule advantanges i would say no.

 

WLK

 

I love all of lore in 40K, all of it; the backgrounds of every army, every character, every Marine Chapter are rich and exciting. But I am making my own army. I have no interest--and have never had any interest--in playing an established chapter, be it Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Salamanders, White Scars, Ultrasmurfs... No. My aim has always been to build my own chapter, with my own mighty heroes, my own background, my own colour scheme. So, in essence, the rules, tactics and combat doctrines associated with whichever specific Marine Codex I ultimately choose is the singlemost important factor--if not the only factor--to influence my descision. I'm sorry if my waxing on offended you, but I thought this was a tactics forum?

 

Maybe I should ask not what the benefits of the Space Wolves are, but rather, what disadvantages I might face? Is there any thing in the vanilla Marine codex that you, as Space Wolf players see and say "Jeez, I wish we could do/take that!"?

[Rikochet]

This forum is for all things Space Wolves.

 

You can wax all you want, but be careful not to slip on it and hurt youself!

 

Yeah, I used to have trouble with Skyclaws and Swiftclaws having less WS and BS than other space marines, and they are meant to be very close combat oriented, while I understand the reasoning behind the WS3 I would very much like it be WS4. Plus Ive realized theres things that make up for it.

 

Other than that, nah, Space Wolves makes me a lot happier than the normal space marines.

[Reichfaust]

Jeez, I just searched for "counts-as Space Wolves"... Now I feel like a criminal ¬_¬ Sorry for "band-wagon jumping", everyone. But believe me, if I *do* decide to switch, you better believe there will be some green-stuffed wolf pelt cloaks on every marine in the army, Eddard Stark style. I don't plan on doing this thing half-assed

[skoll]

see now you made a SoIaF reference so im forced to like you cunning you

[maverik_girl]

Recently a friend and I were discussing the possibility of changing my fledgling army from Codex: Space Marines to some kind of custom Space Wolves-successor chapter (or something, I know the Space Wolves have no successors... Maybe a splinter chapter, or a chapter who has adopted their combat doctrines?).

 

But yeah, as I'm sure you know there are a heap of other differences that I haven't listed here--But as Space Wolf players, what are your thoughts? Should I make the change? What other Pros and/or Cons have I overlooked? Your help in this time of uncertainty would be very much appreciated! *raises a horn of ale* Cheers!

as a space wolf player my thoughts are that you shouldn't change from a vanilla marine, or you would have chosen space wolves in the first place. it's kinda like that guy from the space wolf blog, it's ironic... he sold his SW army several times, as if he can't grasp the true nature and essence of what a true SW should look and feel like. I smell a little codex envy on your part and my acute senses can hear a power gamer in you. I can see a win at all cost player too. Suck it up and stick to your vanillas! Asking people here to try and convince you, is more like a 5 year old asking a stranger why he should get into his van. Of course people here are going to convince you the benefits or give tell what you want to hear. But I'm here to tell you what you need to hear. Stick with your army, or wait for another more powerful army to come out.

[Stormshrug]

Thunderwolf Cavalry: I have long sought an assault unit as powerful as this, and imho nothing in the SM codex is this deadly. I would roll a 5-man squad, barebones; with 30 rending attacks on the charge (and potentially led by a counts-as canis wolfborn), I honestly don't think they'd need any upgrades.

 

Don't run the Thunderwolves without upgrades, because if you do, you're giving up their most powerful asset: stupid wound allocation tricks. If they all have different gear, you can assign wounds however you want, instead of assigning wounds to maximize casualties. In other words, a squad of five can take FIVE wounds and not lose a single model - in contrast, if they all have the same gear, you lose your first model after a mere two wounds.

 

So I would strongly advise giving them some upgrades, even if they're cheap, little ones - a Bolter here, meltabombs there, a power sword here - just make sure they don't all have the same loadout, or else you're giving up the ability to soak five wounds without losing any fighting strength, which is really the biggest reason they're *that* good compared to other 50 point per model heavy-hitters.

 

A Storm Shield or two in the squad is also always worth considering - if you're already spending 250 points on a squad, the ability to make some kind of save against AP2 attacks is nice. If you have a Lord with a Storm Shield, though, this is less important, obviously.

 

-Stormshrug

[d@n]

just paint them red and them blood wolves then you can use them as c;sm, blood angels and space wolves.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just paint them red and them blood wolves then you can use them as c;sm, blood angels and space wolves.

 

[sarcasm engaged]

 

if you do that you might want to add a models with robes for when the next dark angel book comes out, and a few templar crosses on shoulder pads for the black templars.

 

that way you can have no guilt when you jump between codexs to win games.

 

[sarcasm disengaged]

 

WLK

[Reichfaust]

I smell a little codex envy on your part and my acute senses can hear a power gamer in you. I can see a win at all cost player too. Suck it up and stick to your vanillas! Asking people here to try and convince you, is more like a 5 year old asking a stranger why he should get into his van. Of course people here are going to convince you the benefits or give tell what you want to hear. But I'm here to tell you what you need to hear. Stick with your army, or wait for another more powerful army to come out.

 

Okay, fair calls. But... bad news. I just bought some Wolf Guard Terminators and a butt-load of plasticard and green stuff. Let the conversion begin!

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

I'm with Maverik_Girl on this. Quite a few people look at our codex and think that we had the Emperor's golden light shoved up our arses, along with a bunch of rabbit feet and horseshoes. They see thunderwolves and think, "Why don't I have cool toys like that?". Those people look past the fact that we don't have a lot of things that the "vanilla" codex has, such as thunderfire cannons, deep-striking terminators, scouts with shotguns, scout bikers, veterans, command squads, and apothecaries to name a few.

 

If you really feel that you'll enjoy playing Wolves, then I wish you good luck and hope you have fun. I advise against allowing the only reason for doing so to be that our stuff looked shiny.

[mister_wolf]

Interesting topic, as I'm on the verge of doing the exact same thing. My reasons for doing is that my C:SM list looks like this, Captain, Libby, Tac squads, Foot Vanguard, Vindicator and Devastators. Switch to C:SW and that becomes Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, Grey Hunters, Wolfguard, Vindicator and Long Fangs. The list is pretty much the same except most of it just works better/cheaper and will suit my play-style better.

 

Fair enough that some people might call it power-gaming, but every single one of my marines has been rocking a Ragnar's Company shoulder pad since the start, and I have a SW tattoo, so bite me :D

[maverik_girl]

Interesting topic, as I'm on the verge of doing the exact same thing. My reasons for doing is that my C:SM list looks like this, Captain, Libby, Tac squads, Foot Vanguard, Vindicator and Devastators. Switch to C:SW and that becomes Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, Grey Hunters, Wolfguard, Vindicator and Long Fangs. The list is pretty much the same except most of it just works better/cheaper and will suit my play-style better.

 

Fair enough that some people might call it power-gaming, but every single one of my marines has been rocking a Ragnar's Company shoulder pad since the start, and I have a SW tattoo, so bite me :P

that doesn't make any sense ^_^ correct me if I'm wrong... so your on the verge of doing the exact same thing. BUT, every single one of your marines has been rocking a Ragnar's Company shoulder pad since the start. Soooooooo your marines were Space Wolves, that were counts-as vanilla marines, and your on the verge of going back into Space Wolves. Okay! got it, that's what I got, that's what I thought.