Brotherhood of Psykers rule

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I need some assistance clarifying the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and how it applies in every instance. This ended up become a huge debate that stopped our game dead in its tracks.

 

The first problem was in regards to Mordrak being an upgrade character to the Ghost Knights. Does Mordrak inherit the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule by being an upgrade character to the Ghost Knights?

 

My argument that this is ridiculous has to do with one portion of the BoP rule, which states "If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead."

 

Essentially, if I have Mordrak and Ghost Knights, and then cast Psychic Communion with Mordrak and roll double 6s, then according to the rule anyone BUT Mordrak gets hit with the Perils of the Warp. That seems ridiculous and outside the intent of the rule.

 

Using the above example, there's two ways this can play out... either 1) despite being an upgrade character to a unit, Mordrak is still recognized as an Infantry(Character), or unique and thus not compliant to the Brotherhood of Psykers rule... which he can then cast his own powers and suffer his own Perils of the Warp when necessary... or 2) he inherits Brotherhood of Psykers and creates a ridiculous scenario which is listed above.

 

The second problem that really set the debate off is that my opponent felt that because of the way the Brotherhood of Psykers rule is written, where it constantly specifies that "A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn", if an Independent Character, such as a Librarian joins that unit, and then casts its own psychic power... let's say Might of Titan for example... that the unit he is attached to can no longer cast Hammerhand... because "the unit", which includes the Librarian, has already cast a power and thus denied the ability for any further casting.

 

I would really appreciate some solid references to help clear this up. Thanks in advance.

[KnowThyEnemy]

are Mordrak and Librarians listed as having the brotherhood of psyker rule? i wasnt aware of that. anyways, i believe 1) is the correct answer (because i dont believe he actually has the BoP rule, but my memory is failing me currently). Mordrak would take his own tests and pass/fail under his own merit (this also means he could cast hammerhand for the squad, allowing the squad to activate their NFWs).

 

IF for some reason he has the BoP rule, welcome to the rediculous scenario you fear ^_^. he is clearly a character and would not be subject to the random distribution (remember, it says character NOT independant character).

 

Squads have psyker mastery level 1, allowing them to use 1 psychic power per player turn. again, the SQUAD has psyker mastery level 1. librarians have psyker mastery level 2 (or 3) and thus can cast 2 (or 3) psychic powers per player turn. in your scenario, the librarian, not the squad of whoevers, is casting a power. one which, may i point out, the squad cannot actually cast itself. his argument relies on the BoP rule which, again, i dont believe the librarian has. if he DOES, then your rebudle is 1) quit being a rules-lawyer and take your beating like a man (or woman), 2) the squad is now psyker mastery level 2 (or 3) because of the librarian or 3) thanks for the game, i think we're done here. ive got better things to do then play with people who try and twist obvious rules to work in their benefit

 

ill quote some page numbers when i get home if youd like but i think this should suffice. check the army section under each character to see if they actually have the rule and then read the BoP section to see how ICs interact.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

are Mordrak and Librarians listed as having the brotherhood of psyker rule? i wasnt aware of that. anyways, i believe 1) is the correct answer (because i dont believe he actually has the BoP rule, but my memory is failing me currently). Mordrak would take his own tests and pass/fail under his own merit (this also means he could cast hammerhand for the squad, allowing the squad to activate their NFWs).

 

IF for some reason he has the BoP rule, welcome to the rediculous scenario you fear ^_^. he is clearly a character and would not be subject to the random distribution (remember, it says character NOT independant character).

 

Squads have psyker mastery level 1, allowing them to use 1 psychic power per player turn. again, the SQUAD has psyker mastery level 1. librarians have psyker mastery level 2 (or 3) and thus can cast 2 (or 3) psychic powers per player turn. in your scenario, the librarian, not the squad of whoevers, is casting a power. one which, may i point out, the squad cannot actually cast itself. his argument relies on the BoP rule which, again, i dont believe the librarian has. if he DOES, then your rebudle is 1) quit being a rules-lawyer and take your beating like a man (or woman), 2) the squad is now psyker mastery level 2 (or 3) because of the librarian or 3) thanks for the game, i think we're done here. ive got better things to do then play with people who try and twist obvious rules to work in their benefit

 

ill quote some page numbers when i get home if youd like but i think this should suffice. check the army section under each character to see if they actually have the rule and then read the BoP section to see how ICs interact.

 

Mordrak and the Librarian definitely do not have the Brotherhood of Psykers. The way he's arguing this is that Mordrak implicitly inherits Brotherhood of Psykers by being an upgrade character to a unit that has the rule. In regards to the Librarian, he's arguing that because the Brotherhood of Psykers rule specifies the unit rather than the squad, that the previously listed arguments are valid.

[Warsmith IV]

Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain,

Mordrak is an upgrade, not independent. The squad forms a single unit absolutely, as Mordrak is not independent. This means the unit may use his leadership for psychic tests and the unit as a whole may use only one psychic power per turn. Perils of the warp would be resolved against Mordrak as he is their leader but not an independent character. This should have been made clearer in the rules.

 

A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn

Seems fairly clear, however...

A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independent character for Psychic tests

If you take IC powerst o count towards that 1 power limit, this would mean if for instance a Librarian joined a unit and wanted to use Warp Rift, the test would have to use the unit's leadership. This, of course, is ridiculous. Clearly, Independent Characters and units are never truly one whole unit in terms of psychic powers. Therefore, I would say your main unit can use 1 power per turn and any Independent Characters attached may still use as many as they are able.

[Warsmith IV]

Having read other replies, I retract Mordrak & Ghost Knights being able toi use 1 power between them. Mordrak doesn't have the BoP rule, so it's 1 for him and 1 for the Ghosts.

[KnowThyEnemy]

so hes one of THOSE people then ^_^ . you dont inherit BoP of your Mordrak, no where does it say that or even imply that he does. and the brotherhood of psyker rule applies to the squad with that actual rule. in other words, it makes you stop and thinking "hmmm...do i want to cast warp quake? or should i save my power and make this charge im about to do a little more nasty with hammerhand? decisions, decisions". again, id probably opt for option 3 in my "ways to solve this issue". dont got time for people like that, just like playing a nice competative game under the Most Important Rule ;).

 

o, i came up with another option. if he argues that, tell him "ok, my squad is now PM level 3 instead of 1 because the librarian ups the PM level. also, because he now 'inherits" the BoP rule, he can no longer suffer a PotW attack, because the rule specifically states only non-character models suffer the attack, because its a squad-wide attempt to cast these powers. O and im using his LD for testing :P ".

 

before someone says something silly, im not saying thats the way i would play it. it would just be my attempt at telling him to shut it

[Rider-75]

so can someone then clarify this situation:

 

brother-captain leading a squad of 3 paladins.

 

squad uses hammerhand at start of combat.

 

is that the only power that can be used by the squad, or can the brother-captain the take a psychic test to activate the NFWs?

 

if the BC activates the NFW is that his ONLY or the paladins too?

 

or is it that as they both have mastery 1 they can both use 1 psychic power EACH?

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain,

Mordrak is an upgrade, not independent. The squad forms a single unit absolutely, as Mordrak is not independent. This means the unit may use his leadership for psychic tests and the unit as a whole may use only one psychic power per turn. Perils of the warp would be resolved against Mordrak as he is their leader but not an independent character. This should have been made clearer in the rules.

 

The rule says very specifically that perils must be allocated to a non-character model. Mordrak is listed as Infantry(Character)... so if the above were true, then he'd be invulnerable from BoP Perils of the Warp so long as at least one Ghost Knight was still alive.

 

I think the biggest issue is whether or not Mordrak inherits BoP by being an upgrade to of the Ghost Knights squad. The exact same thing applies to Justicar Thawn with Terminator squads as well.

[himkano]

so can someone then clarify this situation:

 

brother-captain leading a squad of 3 paladins.

 

squad uses hammerhand at start of combat.

 

is that the only power that can be used by the squad, or can the brother-captain the take a psychic test to activate the NFWs?

 

if the BC activates the NFW is that his ONLY or the paladins too?

 

or is it that as they both have mastery 1 they can both use 1 psychic power EACH?

 

I don't have my book with me, but I am almost certain that NFW is independent - the character and the squad would have to activate it to benefit, but other powers - hammerhand for example, would effect both. So I would use the squad for NFW - which would give it to everyone except the IC, and use the IC to cast Hammerhand, which effects the whole squad.

 

Other than that, like everyone else, I'd say the could use one power each.

[worloch]

I'll have to double check when I get home but I believe there may be some confusion here regarding Characters.

 

Why can't an Eversor Assassin join a unit? Because he doesn't have the Independent Character rule, but he is still a Character. This makes him a unit of 1 in his own right.

 

Mordrak is a Character but not an Independent Character - he can not join squads, but he is still a Character and this makes him a Unit of 1 in his own right. The difference here is that while Mordrak can not join a squad, he will start off as part of one he can't leave. There are rules in the BRB that describe a situation like this - a retinue. The best description I've read (on these boards but I don't remember specifically where, so I apologize for not providing the source) is that Mordrak is like a reverse retinue - you buy the retinue and then get Mordrak with it, as opposed to buying the character, and then getting the retinue with him.

 

 

As such, no, he doesn't inherit Brotherhood of Psykers, his psychic power are tested separately and count only against his psychic powers per turn limit. If he activates his Force Weapon, it does per the BRB Force Weapon rules, not the BoP rules, and if successful only affects him. The exception here is called out in specific powers like Hammerhand, which specifically say they target the whole unit.

 

I'll try to remember to check my books this evening to back all that up with sources.

[Rudog]

So I'm one of 'those' people huh? And yes, I did receive my beating like a man (this time... you are toast next time!)

 

We got on with a good game (did the roll to decide this time and said let's see what others say on this for next time). And it only came up because he asked if Mordack would be subject to the PoW if he used the brotherhood power... and since I don't know the GK codex, we read it together and tried to decide. It's always friendly games... I believe if you ask Mr Guardian he will attest to the fact that I don't try to twist rules just to my benefit.

 

So way I interpreted it was all the words in reference to that Brotherhood psycher thing were, 'the unit'. Once it uses the word 'squad' instead of 'unit', but most times it talked of 'the unit' being able to do it or affected by it. Then looking at the definitions of Mordark it stated he is not an independant character and when taking the Ghost Knights he counts as an upgraded character (to me, I was thinking Exarch, Shas'ui, Sergent, Justicar, etc). Between those two sets of wording, I thought that he would be affected by the PoW when 'the unit' cast as he counts as just another part of that unit (just like any other upgraded character (Sergent, Justicar, Exarch) would). For an IC, he would obviously not be affected by this, because the rule clearly states not independant characters (can't use their leadership and are not affected by PoW).

 

So if you say that Mordrak would not be affected by the PoW, then would you also say his leadership cannot be used for it and he wouldn't be affected by the psychic power (since all are stated by the same wording)?

 

That also then got me to thinking about the 2nd part of our debate... if it says 'the unit' can only cast 1 psychic power a turn, then if there is any psycher in that unit that uses a psychic power (or 2 or 3 powers if that character is able to), that unit has already used at least 1 psychic power. I'm not in anyway suggesting that a librarian attached to a squad he can only use 1 psychic power... I interpreted it that if he does use a power, then the squad is unable to use another power because 'the unit' has already used 1 (at least) psychic power that turn.

 

It's really not a matter of confering the Brotherhood thing on Mordark (or whomever is in the group).

 

And regarding the 'character' wording. There are 2 types of 'characters' listed in the rulebook. Independent Characters and Upgrade Characters. Mordrak is clearly stated as the later and the later is specifically stated as just just another squad member (uses the example of Space Marine Sergent). The Assasain and other non-IC are single model 'units', that have a special clarification just stating they cannot join other units. They are in no way special outside of that (only ICs are).

 

And no worries people, put down your torches... we'll just go by whatever the majority thinks here. I think a number of sections of the GK codex appear in bad need of an FAQ.

[Warsmith IV]

Thawn is hugely different from Mordrak. In fact, he clears up the deabate in many ways. He doesn't have BoP but is Mastery Level 2. This would be pointless if BoP meant he and his unit together could only use 1 power per turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

There's an old topic on this. IT needs to be FAQed.

 

Personally, the way I see the rules working is that Mordrak and Thrawn, when part of a unit are subject to BoP.

 

If they are not, then the unit as a whole doesn't have BoP. This means each individual GK in the unit is a Pysker in their own right, can all use a single power per turn, and thier Force weapons can only inflict a single ID wound.

 

So, as subject to BoP (which is a *unit* rule, much like Psybolt Ammo, which we all agree they both get, right?), the PML they have only applies when they are both single mini units in thier own right.

 

After Thawn has ressurected, or if you didn't purchase any Ghost Knights for Mordrak (and no free ones have spawned).

 

The pertinent part of the rule (which has already been quoted) is;

 

A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn

 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You can't have the *unit* retain BoP, and Mordrak/Thawn not be a part of the *unit* for that rule and use their own PML.

 

It's a fail by Ward for not listing these guys twice, with two sets of rules. Once for when they are on their own, once when they are part of a unit.

 

(You also have the added problem of whether Mordrak/Thawn is the 'justicar' of the unit. Going by RAW, if they aren't the unit can't use *any* Psychic powers, as BoP rules the test must be taken on the Justicar, and only another member of the Squad if said Justicar is dead. Mordrak/Thawns unit doesn't have a Justicar to die...)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Confirming that Rudog is a great sport and this isn't a matter of someone trying to one up or cheat anyone... we just really want to know how this actually works.

 

In regards to the character wording, assuming Codex always trumps the rulebook (which it does, according to the rulebook itself), every unit listed in the codex has a "Unit Composition" and a "Unit Type". Here are some examples:

 

Grey Knight Grand Master: Composition: 1 Grand Master, Type: Infantry (Character)

Librarian: Composition: 1 Librarian, Type: Infantry (Character)

Techmarine: Composition: 1 Techmarine, Type: Infantry (Character)

Purifier Squad: Composition: 1 Knight of the Flame, 4 Purifiers, Type: Infantry

 

Now...

 

Grand Master Mordrak: Composition: 1 (Unique), Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Ghost Knights: Composition: 1-5 Ghost Knights, Unit Type: Infantry

Justicar Thawn: Composition: 1 (Unique), Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Grey Knight Terminator Squad: Composition: 1 Terminator Justicar, 4 Terminators, Unit Type: Infantry

 

You can see through the above composition and unit types that they are considered special, regardless of whether or not they have Independent Character or not. Mordrak and Thawn alike are "unique" characters with special rules that are exclusive to them. They count as upgrades to their units but the unit's ruleset doesn't negate their own rules. It's not specified anywhere that they have to adhere the rules of the unit when they themselves are designed differently... that is the purpose of them actually being a unique upgrade character. For example, a Justicar in a Grey Knight Strike Squad is just Unit Type: Infantry... his rules are clearly defined as the same as the rest of the unit... even though he is a different character with a slightly modified statline, he's still not unique. Mordrak and Thawn ARE unique.

 

Additionally, the Brotherhood of Psykers rule does state that they can never use the leadership of an independent character for psychic tests. Even though Mordrak is not an independent character, he is also not a member of the Brotherhood of Psykers and would never use his leadership to take their tests. I believe this was never in question. If the Ghost Knights or whatever BoP squad executes a psychic ability, then they use their own leadership (wouldn't matter for Ghost Knights as they are Ld10).

[Gentlemanloser]

Is he a member of the unit? Is Thawn?

 

Why does BoP, a specifically Unit wide rule, ignore them?

 

There's no rules to even suggest it would.

 

If it does, then they don't gain Psybolt Ammo, if their Squad takes it, for one.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

So, as subject to BoP (which is a *unit* rule, much like Psybolt Ammo, which we all agree they both get, right?), the PML they have only applies when they are both single mini units in thier own right.

 

Going on this quote... I don't agree that Psybolt Ammo would extend to say a Grand Master, or other independent character that is attached to a "unit" that has this upgrade. If that were actually the case, then you could simply buy a Grand Master, pay for the 5 point Psybolt Ammo upgrade rather than the 20 points it costs a full unit, and extend that ammo to the rest of the unit by simply attaching the GM to the squad. Poorly worded codex and lack of FAQ definitely makes it murky, but I don't see the purpose of providing the option to buy Psybolt Ammo to both the squads and the HQ characters if one could transfer it to the other.

 

Looking at another codex, if you purchase Sergeant Telion in the Space Marine codex for a unit of scouts, his rules affect the scouts, not the other way around. You couldn't purchase any piece of upgrade for Telion, such as a camo cloak, and the fact that he has the stealth ability causes him to confer it upon the rest of the unit, rather than him losing it because he's not by himself. Upgrade characters are usually in the codex to upgrade a unit... hence the phrase upgrade character. It would be pointless to take an upgrade character who can only use his special abilities when he's alone (thus VERY vulnerable).

 

Another example relating to my theory on this is in regards to the fact that Mordrak is a Grand Master... not being an independent character aside, do you really believe that he's the only Grand Master in the entire Grey Knights legion who would get downgraded simply for not having that rule? That's bologna.

 

(I apologize if any of this comes across as confrontational, I'm not trying to be).

[Gentlemanloser]

GM's et all are ICs.

 

While they can attach themselves to a unit, from time to time, they are not *part* of the unit.

 

Which Mordrak and Thawn are.

 

(There are specific rules for ICs, as to which rules carry over to units they join, and which don't. None of that applies to Upgrade Characters actually part of the unit in question).

 

As for Telion, this was recently FAQed wasn't it? if 1 guy has Stealth, they all have Stealth. If it's possible (can't remember the wording to be honest) to purchase just 1 Cloak for the unit, the whole unit would then have Stealth.

[KnowThyEnemy]

No torches here, just sounded like the person arguing for only 1 power being able to be used in the OP was trying to find a loophole is all. no offense meant nor implied.

 

i dont understand the comparison between thawn and mordrak. yes they are both characters in a squad but they are bought and operate in 2 different ways. mordrak you buy and add ghost knights to him. thawn is a named justicar for a termie squad. the reference to psybolt ammo is a little odd gentleman, your paying for that upgrade across the squad, its not a unit-wide special rule. if you buy psybolt ammo for a squad and you join a librarian to it, does he magically get psybolts too? me thinks not. if you join an IC to a squad, does the squad all become ICs or, vice-versa, does the IC lose his status? again, no. the only time this happens is specified in the BRB.

 

there was an example earlier about a fearless IC taking extra wounds and his non-fearless buddies running away. im afraid that is incorrect. when a fearless IC joins a non-fearless unit, he loses fearless. the only way a fearless IC takes wounds in a combat his side lost is if he was on his own or with a fearless unit. otherwise hes running away with his nonfearless unit.

 

again, no where in the BRB or C:GK does it say you inherit or lose the BoP special rule depending on who you join. it would say so if that was the case, just as the BRB lists all the USR that you lose/gain by joining a certain unit.

 

and if a librarian in a unit uses a psychic power, it doesn't use up the squads power. its him using it, not them. BoP is a special rule that applies to a collective group of models and it allows them to cast a power per turn (squad/unit/group of fellows, doesn't matter what you call them). the librarian doesn't have this rule, he is in no way shape or form affecting this rule, he is an IC and this rule doesn't apply to him. your forgetting that all this wording about units and 1 power all fall under the BoP rule, which applies to only models with the BoP rule. its also why they specificy that despite an IC being in a unit, his NFW is not activated when the unit activates theirs, he must test separetely to activate (which btw, it doesn't say that an IC's NFW reverts into a standard FW, it just says he must test separtely. all their wounds inflicted still cause ID imo). how could an IC with PML 1 (BC or inquisitor?) take that test if the "shared psychic test" theory your proposing applies? he would never be able to use his FW or if he did, the squad couldnt use theirs

[Gentlemanloser]

I agree.

 

If you buy Psybolt ammo for the *squad*, attached ICs don't get it.

 

But we all agree that Mordrak and Thawn both get it, don't we?

 

Why, because they are part of the unit.

 

The unit, which by BoP can only cast 1 Power per turn. :)

 

I disagree there's a functional difference between how Mordrak and Thawn operate. For both, you have to have a base Squad. Ghost Knights for Mordrak (you don't even need to buy any, you get them automatically for free when he's wounded), a Terminator Squad for Thawn. The only difference is you don't need to purchase Thawn for the Termies, where as you're required to purchase Mordrak for the Ghost Knights.

 

again, no where in the BRB or C:GK does it say you inherit or lose the BoP special rule depending on who you join. it would say so if that was the case, just as the BRB lists all the USR that you lose/gain by joining a certain unit.

 

Doesn't need to be.

 

We're not *joining* a unit.

 

Mordrak/Thawn *are* part of the unit.

 

Either they get BoP and Psybolts, or the unit as a whole doesn't.

 

I think it's obvious that BoP doesn't interact in any way with ICs that join/leave the unit. But that's a totally different situation.

[worloch]

And regarding the 'character' wording. There are 2 types of 'characters' listed in the rulebook. Independent Characters and Upgrade Characters. Mordrak is clearly stated as the later and the later is specifically stated as just just another squad member (uses the example of Space Marine Sergent). The Assasain and other non-IC are single model 'units', that have a special clarification just stating they cannot join other units. They are in no way special outside of that (only ICs are).

 

Can you find me the quote that Assassin's can't join units? I was looking for it for the longest time, remembering it from the old Codex and I was unable to find it.

 

Then I got excited and thought as a Character, an Eversor would be able to join a unit and proceed to the beat down.

 

Then I looked in the BRB and realized only IC's can join units (having the special rule 'IC'), not Characters.

 

If you can point out to me the book and page number that reference is on, I would appreciate it.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think it's under the IC section where it states ICs can't join units that are always made up of a single mini.

 

Other than that, it's the IC rules that allow them to join other units. There no printed restriction that 'characters' chan't join, but there doens't need to be.

 

As they aren't ICs, and don't follow the rules ICs have to join other units.

[nurglez]

Back on topic a bit, I do wonder how paladins use psychic abilities, as they can never have a justicar or knight of the flame, so I guess by strict RAW they can never use their psychic abilities...

 

I use the rule of "my common sense discussed with our small gaming group". I would assume that Mordrak is a special sort of upgrade char, and I would be happy to let him use psychic communion and then let the squad activate their force weapons, however Mordrak wouldn't benefit from their force weapons. As to me, Mordrak is a IC who can only attach to other IC's or his ghost knights, and due to his special connection to the ghost knights he is treated as an upgraded char when in assault or being shot at (not from perils ^_^ ).

 

Of course, this is purely my opinion and is more down to my gut feeling then specific rules...

[Warsmith IV]

Back on topic a bit, I do wonder how paladins use psychic abilities, as they can never have a justicar or knight of the flame, so I guess by strict RAW they can never use their psychic abilities...

 

Read the rules.

 

A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive). or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests.

 

Obviously for Paladins he cannot be alive, so they use the unit average leadership of 9.

[nurglez]

I should have let on that I play a draigo paladin list, and I do use paladin's to cast psychic abilties, but as the Justicar or knight of the flame isn't alive or dead, it doesn't fulfil either of those stipulations ^_^

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

It's a badly written rule.