Brotherhood of Psykers rule

[KnowThyEnemy]

i still have to disagree with you gentleman ^_^. you are purchasing psybolts to upgrade the entire squad for X points. BoP is a special rule, just like fearless ATSKNF stealth etc etc. It applies only to the models that have it. why must BoP apply to Thawn and Mordrak simply because they are part of a unit that has it and are unable to leave it? your assumption that it applies to mordrak and thawn is only based on the fact they cannot leave the unit. where does it say it would only apply to them? why would an IC joining the unit not inherit the rule as well? all youve done is pick 2 named characters and said they get the rule but all other ICs dont get it, but havent supplied a reason why that is :lol:

 

and thawn and mordrak are different in the way that they are purchased. you must have termies to have thawn, you dont have to have ghost knights to have mordrak. ghost knights are his retinue (much like a hive tyrant joining tyrant guard, odd reference i know but im on a tyranid kick at the moment). just like the tyrant, mordrak cannot leave the ghost knights for any reason. when they are all dead, he operates as a single entity.

 

so its: Buy mordrak -> unlocks ghost knights for purchase

Buy terminators -> unlocks thawn for purchase.

to me, thats 180 degrees different :D.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not the difference between Wargear and USR that's pertinent. :lol:

 

It's the disctintion of whether Mordrak/Thawn are part of the unit, or not.

 

If they are part of the unit (fully, totally, not attached temporarily like an IC), then they get Psybolts. We'd all agree with that.

 

By the same token, if the Unit has a rule that specifies it effects the whole unit (and it doesn't specify parts of the unit *with* the rule), then the rule effects the whole unit.

 

Or the rule doesn't exist.

 

Now if BoP said something along the lines of "Any member of the unit with the BoP rule is counted as a single Psycher and can only cast one power per turn", this discussion would be moot.

 

But BoP is badly worded, as are Mordrak/Thawn.

 

They are part of the unit. BoP limits the unit to casting one power per turn. Mordrak/Thawn in thier repsective units, along with the rest of thier respective units can only cast 1 power per turn.

 

There's really no wiggle room here. Unless you really want to rule that the unit, as a whole, no longer follows the BoP rule...

[KnowThyEnemy]

of course not, im merely stating that the...(wait for it) RAI (:)) is fairly clear here.

 

Why would a librarian or grandmaster for a special character of any stripe get weaker once he joins a unit of his brethern? because that is what your implying by saying thawn and mordrak can only cast 1 power since they are part of the unit. that would also extend to ICs and the like, since they are joined to the unit, therefore part of the unit.

 

the reason it doesn't say what you put in quotes is because this whole rule is all under the BoP special rule, which would apply to models who are stated as having this rule :). but we're just going in circles, so we can just agree to disagree. doubt there'll be an FAQ on this one. ive seen a lot of "common sense" issues left out of current FAQs, id expect that trend to continue

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I totally agree the RAI is that Thawn's unit can use 2 powers per turn. I'm unsure on the RAI for Mordrak while with the Ghost Knights though.

 

Either way, Ward fumbled the ball here, and I think it's just the sort of thing *he* needs to clarify.

 

As for the fluff;

 

Why would a librarian or grandmaster for a special character of any stripe get weaker once he joins a unit of his brethern?

 

Easy, logical and viable answer. :)

 

The GM/Immortal Sensei needs to concentrate their own personal power, to help focus the Squads gestalt Psychic Prowess. This concentration limits them to only casting a single power per turn, the power the whole Squad generates through combined will, but in return, the power of the unit increases. As evidenced by the increased FW killing capability.

 

If the GM/Immortal Sensei were just to use their own psychic prowess, there wouldn't be enough concentrated will to allow manifestation of the Squads gestalt psychic prowess, the Squad would be unable to use any powers of their own. ;)

 

(no basis in rules for any of that! Just pure fluff explanation! :))

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

They are part of the unit. BoP limits the unit to casting one power per turn. Mordrak/Thawn in thier repsective units, along with the rest of thier respective units can only cast 1 power per turn.

 

There's really no wiggle room here. Unless you really want to rule that the unit, as a whole, no longer follows the BoP rule...

 

I still feel the strongest argument against this theory is when looking at the scenario of Mordrak casting Psychic Communion while in a unit of Ghost Knights and causing Perils of the Warp. Under the written ruleset and your interpretation of its application, Mordrak is immune to Perils of the Warp from his own psychic power and that perils wound gets applied to someone randomly other than him.

 

Where else in all of 40k does that happen?

[KnowThyEnemy]

new tag line for the army:

Codex Grey Knights: Where all your dreams can come true, if you only believe :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I still feel the strongest argument against this theory is when looking at the scenario of Mordrak casting Psychic Communion while in a unit of Ghost Knights and causing Perils of the Warp. Under the written ruleset and your interpretation of its application, Mordrak is immune to Perils of the Warp from his own psychic power and that perils wound gets applied to someone randomly other than him.

 

Where else in all of 40k does that happen?

 

Thawn? ;)

 

Again, it's evidence of the shoddy nature of the writing of the BoP rule, and how it doesn't cater for Mordrak/Thawn.

 

Technically, by RAW, Mordrak and aunit of Ghost Knights can't cast any powers. As thier Justicar is neither alive (to use him for perils) nor dead (to use a random member). So no casting for you.

 

But players who want to play to that level of RAW find themselves facing three NDKs embark in SRs. ;)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Honestly the more I look at this the more it seems like a common sense vs. rule lawyering thing to me. The problem with the whole thing is that they used the word "unit" in the rule, even though only certain units get the rule.

 

Looking at it from another perspective, a significant majority of psykers in 40k are individual characters. The rulebook states specifically how when something goes awry with the Psyker how it affects him as individual... there is no wording anywhere for any other member of the unit.

 

The exception to this occurs in the few rare instances where a squad contains multiple members (usually all of the members) with psychic powers. In these cases, they all have the same powers and a rule is in place so that when casting the psychic power, they are treated as a single psyker for the purpose of utilizing the psychic power.

 

Examples:

 

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Imperial Guard Codex - Psyker Battle Squad

 

Psychic Choir - The Psyker Battle Squad is treated as a single psyker for the purposes of using a psychic power. The controlling player may measure range and line of sight from any Sanctioned Psyker model when resolving psychic powers.

 

 

------------------

 

Grey Knight Codex - Inquisitorial Warband: Psykers

 

Psychic Powers:

Psychic Barrage: The Psykers can unleash a powerful psychic shooting attack with the following profile:

 

Only one Psychic Barrage is 'fired', regardless of the number of psykers in the squad. All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc, and use their own Leadership value, not that of any attached characters. The controlling player can measure range and line of sight from any psyker model when resolving the Psychic Barrage. If the squad suffers the Perils of the Warp, all Psykers in the squad suffer the effects.

 

------------------

 

If you look at the above examples, the intent is to create a "one power available to all" type of system for non-character psykers. The psychic power is theoretically available to every psyker in a squad, but when cast it is only cast by one, even if it can be bonused by additional members, such as the two examples I listed above, or when having more members doesn't help the result, such as Grey Knights having access to Hammerhand. So as a result, you have multiple bodies who act normally (moving, shooting, etc) EXCEPT when using a Psychic power, in which case they act as 1 psyker, the same as any individual Librarian or Farseer.

 

Lets say you were to attach a Librarian to the above squad of Psykers with the Psychic Barrage. If you want to take a rules lawyering approach then you can argue that his presence being there ups the Psychic Barrage strength and AP, and that when a Perils of the Warp is suffered, that Librarian also suffers it, even though the Librarian's LD is not allowed to be used for the purpose of the psychic test. The reason you can argue this is because once again the word "unit" was used... "All Psykers in the same unit...". Its clearly not the intent.

 

The Brotherhood of Psykers rule is just the Strike Squad, Interceptor Squad, Terminator Squad etc... way of saying "this unit acts normally EXCEPT when using a Psychic power, in which case it acts as 1 psyker, the same as any individual Librarian or Farseer. There is not one individual character in the entire codex who has the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule. They are ALL individual psykers, who utilize psychic rules the same any other individual psyker would. It is even spelled out that they have a "Psychic Mastery Level". They are individual psykers, plain and simple.

 

There is nowhere in any codex or the 40k rulebook that says the rules change for psychics depending on whether or not they are an independent character. Mordrak is a unique unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights, and Thawn is a unique unit upgrade for the Terminator squad. To me it is obvious that if they intended for these two to be part of the "unit that acts as a single psyker" then they would've been given the Brotherhood of Psyker rule, but they very clearly not only do not have that rule, they have the psychic mastery level rule instead.

[Gentlemanloser]

They have PMLs because they can be fielded as single mini units in thier own right, which wouldn't require, nor use, BoP.

 

You make a good argument with attaching a Libby to a Psyker Squad, one which is further muddied by calling the unit Psyker...

 

But again, the difference is that the libby is an IC joining a squad, and you could rule, by RAW, he is subject to their Psychic Barrage rule. Which wouldn't stop the Libby using his own power, but would have him counting to the Strength of the Barrage, plus he'd take a perils test if the Barrage generated one (not using his LD as that's not allowed). Perversly, the Psyker Squad could also be ruled to all take a perils as well if th eLibby generated one.

 

It's another badly written rule. As evidenced by the old Culuxes Assassin and Psyker Squad thread.

 

The GK Codex was probably the worst written 'dex for coherent rules that GW have ever released.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

They have PMLs because they can be fielded as single mini units in thier own right, which wouldn't require, nor use, BoP.

 

You make a good argument with attaching a Libby to a Psyker Squad, one which is further muddied by calling the unit Psyker...

 

But again, the difference is that the libby is an IC joining a squad, and you could rule, by RAW, he is subject to their Psychic Barrage rule. Which wouldn't stop the Libby using his own power, but would have him counting to the Strength of the Barrage, plus he'd take a perils test if the Barrage generated one (not using his LD as that's not allowed). Perversly, the Psyker Squad could also be ruled to all take a perils as well if th eLibby generated one.

 

It's another badly written rule. As evidenced by the old Culuxes Assassin and Psyker Squad thread.

 

The GK Codex was probably the worst written 'dex for coherent rules that GW have ever released.

 

The biggest contradiction to the Librarian being involved in the casting of a unit's psychic power is that it you can't use the IC's leadership for the purpose of casting the power. It is a contradiction to say that a squad of Ld8 guys would be more likely to succeed due to a Ld9 Justicar, but that a Ld8 unit of Psykers would gain no benefit from a Ld10 Librarian who happens to do nothing but cast psychic powers for a living.

 

I agree that the writing of the codex is awful in this whole thing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye...

 

Someone needs to be stopped form ever play testing / proof reading / editing / ok-ing Codexes ever again.

 

We can't really blame Ward for it. As much as we'd like to! ^_^

 

Unless he was the final proof reader / editor / ok-er of course! ;)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Mordrak and Thawn aside... this is straight from the rulebook, under independent characters joining & leaving units, page 48:

 

...Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit...

 

Also, regarding retinues (Mordrak):

 

Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard', or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game.

 

Mordrak's rules definitely override the part about becoming an IC... but there's rulebook precendent for non-IC characters to actually be identified as "characters".

[Gentlemanloser]

The first quote doesn't apply, as Mordrak isn't an IC.

 

The second quote also isn't applicable for the same reason. Mordrak isn't an IC that has a 'retinue' (like the GKGM of old), he is specifically noted as being an 'upgrade character' by his rule, exactly like Thawn (and Telion for example).

 

Edit:

 

As far as I can remember (don't have the BRB to hand), there's no rules for which universal, special, or unit based rules carry over to upgrade characters, or not. I suppose becuase they are expected to be exactly like every other member of their squad, being just an upgrade to a basic template.

 

But I do remember something about things like Stubborn on an Upgrade Character not carrying over to the unit (Arjac or the IG dude?), but think that's clarified in a FAQ.

[Brother Valerius]

Technically, by RAW, Mordrak and aunit of Ghost Knights can't cast any powers. As thier Justicar is neither alive (to use him for perils) nor dead (to use a random member). So no casting for you.

 

Actually, that bit would mean they're immune to Perils. The other half of BoP makes them unable to cast though, as it uses the same verbiage to describe what leadership value to use for psychic tests.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

So using the logic that when the codex uses the word "character", it really means "independent character"... please explain how this works:

 

Let's say, for example, that Mordrak and his units of Ghost Knights suffer casualties to the point where Mordrak is the last man standing. According to the opposing theory in this thread, this means that Mordrak is no longer subject to the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and that he now can use his Psyker Mastery Level 1.

 

Well, the rule Psyker Mastery Level states: "... uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery Level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn."

 

So, if characters only are independent characters, then that would mean Mordrak and Thawn couldn't use the Psyker Mastery Level rule, even thought it is one of their special rules... they are not independent characters, after all.

[Gentlemanloser]

True.

 

They are upgrade characters. ;)

 

Or rather, they are Unit: Infantry (Character).

 

Being a Charcater doesn't stop them also being a full on member of a unit, subject to all the rules that unit is bound by.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

True.

 

They are upgrade characters. ;)

 

Or rather, they are Unit: Infantry (Character).

 

Being a Charcater doesn't stop them also being a full on member of a unit, subject to all the rules that unit is bound by.

 

So you believe then that being Unit: Infantry (Character) has a significant meaning, and affects rules such as Psyker Mastery Level and Brotherhood of Psykers? I just want to clarify this point because it seems to be a point of contention.

[KnowThyEnemy]

if BoP limits Mordrak and Thawn to only casting 1 power along with the group, then it limits Librarians Grandmasters Draigo etc etc. No where does it state that it affects models without the BoP rule, but if you claim it does than it affects ALL models without the rule that are joined to that unit. No pickin and choosin, its one or the other. it either affects only BoP models or it affects all models.

[stephane4985]

Mordrak is a character. Not an IC.

 

In the GK book, it is written that while he is with ghost knight, he is an upgrade character. In the BRB, an upgrade character is defined as "just another trooper in their unit with enhanced characteristics". Thus he is like a ghost knight but with better stats. All the rules for Ghost knights applies to him, including brotherhood of psyker. The reason they give Mordrak a psychic mastery level 1 is because of the following rule in the gk codex: "at which points he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

 

Sure they could have given him brotherhood of psyker, but as a single model unit, it makes more sense to give him psychic mastery than brotherhood which is for a squad. Either way, when he is alone, it does the same thing.

[Gentlemanloser]

So you believe then that being Unit: Infantry (Character) has a significant meaning, and affects rules such as Psyker Mastery Level and Brotherhood of Psykers? I just want to clarify this point because it seems to be a point of contention.

 

Of course it has meaning.

 

Assassins are Unit: Infantry (Character). They still aren't ICs, and should be treated as such.

 

if BoP limits Mordrak and Thawn to only casting 1 power along with the group, then it limits Librarians Grandmasters Draigo etc etc. No where does it state that it affects models without the BoP rule, but if you claim it does than it affects ALL models without the rule that are joined to that unit. No pickin and choosin, its one or the other. it either affects only BoP models or it affects all models.

 

No.

 

Because they are ICs.

 

They might be *attached* to the unit temporarily.

 

But they aren't *part* of the unit.

 

GMs, Draigo, Libby's etc *aren't* and can't be treated the same as Mordrak/Thawn. I really can't understand why this seems to be a point of confusion...

[jeffersonian000]

It seems that the practicle solution for both Mordrak and Thawn is the treat them as BoP while in their squads, and PML when on their own. In Mordrak's case, he loses nothing since he is only PML1, while Thawn will not get to use his 2nd power per turn unit after he rez's. Yes, it does appear that neither Mordrak nor Thawn may take a Peril's wound while in a squad, yet their leadership would be used for all psychic checks. Simple, follows the rules as written, and doesn't generate additional issues down the line.

 

SJ

[stephane4985]

I agree for Mordrak that he is not a justicar so does not get specifically target by perils of the warp, but Thawn is basically an upgrade Justicar, so I think he should be subject to it as the Justicar he is.

[jeffersonian000]

Except that he is a character, and BoP states that characters cannot be the target of Perils of the Warp. However, he is a Justicar, so I guess it evens out since if he dies he can just rez later in the game.

 

SJ