The Sanguinor?

[RDubbs]

I'm still trying to settle on which codex I'm going to end up picking for my first 40K army, and while I was poking around various forums, I came across a combat calculator tool. Just for fun, I put the Sanguinor's stats into it, and ran him against all the other Special Characters I could find. It seems like he has a very good chance to beat...all of them? Even Mephiston? I didn't factor in Mephiston's psychic powers, so that may be the difference maker, but I'm curious why I don't see the Sanguinor in more lists, especially since he can take on stuff like Thunderlords and that Draigo guy.

[Redo]

My guess is that he is super expensive...sure he has an amazing statline but he also is not an idependent Character. Means that you can pick him out all the time and with T4 it is possible to force him to take a lot of armour/invulnerable saves.

 

Yes he also provides a biff to some sergeant and to surrounding models but that price is high. Really couts down on the other marines you can take.

[toaae]

Some people don't like the fluff, others dont like the model. It may also be because he doesn't do much to support an army that isn't rushing a bunch of marines into combat. And as scary as he is individual, he is just a 3 wound unit. Yes, a 3+ invulnerable makes it hard to kill him, but not impossible. He isn't the be all, end all of HQs.

 

But, don't get me wrong, he is good.

[RDubbs]

Some people don't like the fluff, others dont like the model. It may also be because he doesn't do much to support an army that isn't rushing a bunch of marines into combat. And as scary as he is individual, he is just a 3 wound unit. Yes, a 3+ invulnerable makes it hard to kill him, but not impossible. He isn't the be all, end all of HQs.

 

But, don't get me wrong, he is good.

 

This is undoubtedly my 40K newbishness showing through, but I figured an HQ that could take on practically any other HQ in the game with a good chance of beating the snot out of them would in fact be considered the be all, end all of HQs!

[BA.Rauk]

The "End all, be all of HQs" is all to a matter of opinion. Some find cheap support HQs to be the best bet for their army, while others use expensive combat machines to good effect. It's all about finding which you enjoy more and learning how to play it to your best. I've used Mephiston since the PDF codex and continue to do so. I'm sad that he lost his D3 attacks, IC status and FC/FnP base... but what can you do- I now use him to great effect jumping out of a Storm raven with a Dreadnought, ready to take on many a deathstar with just the Furioso as support or even to destroy things that are a bigger shooting threat to my army, such as Monoliths, Devestators, Hammerheads, Broadsides, Bike Seer Councils, Greater Daemons and even the occasional Land raider or two. It all varies on the enemy I'm facing and what my list needs the most to push it in it's favor. It did take quite awhile to get a good feel with him, and now I feel confident fielding him both in and out of a Storm raven and am sure he'll "make back his points" and more each and every time I field him.

[toaae]

Some people don't like the fluff, others dont like the model. It may also be because he doesn't do much to support an army that isn't rushing a bunch of marines into combat. And as scary as he is individual, he is just a 3 wound unit. Yes, a 3+ invulnerable makes it hard to kill him, but not impossible. He isn't the be all, end all of HQs.

 

But, don't get me wrong, he is good.

 

This is undoubtedly my 40K newbishness showing through, but I figured an HQ that could take on practically any other HQ in the game with a good chance of beating the snot out of them would in fact be considered the be all, end all of HQs!

 

But it isn't about your HQ going up against his/her HQ. The battle isn't won or lost in a clash of the titans. Against that IG player, do you really think you need the Sanguinor to have re-rolls in order to kill his HQ? You'd be better off with a rule that made ordnance always scatter.

 

For many of us, the humble librarian is the answer at HQ. No, he will not be going toe to toe with Abaddon, Logan, Greater Daemons, and what have you. What he will do is provide psychic defense for your army, while bringing a couple of psychic powers that can help defend your army or boost the power of a squad that needs it. And all for the low cost of 100 points.

 

Armies can be built around the Sanguinor. Make use of his aura and the sarge boost, and he is a downright deadly character, without even considering the fact that he is a CC beast.

[kharn_the_betrayer]

Some people don't like the fluff, others dont like the model. It may also be because he doesn't do much to support an army that isn't rushing a bunch of marines into combat. And as scary as he is individual, he is just a 3 wound unit. Yes, a 3+ invulnerable makes it hard to kill him, but not impossible. He isn't the be all, end all of HQs.

 

But, don't get me wrong, he is good.

 

This is undoubtedly my 40K newbishness showing through, but I figured an HQ that could take on practically any other HQ in the game with a good chance of beating the snot out of them would in fact be considered the be all, end all of HQs!

 

But it isn't about your HQ going up against his/her HQ. The battle isn't won or lost in a clash of the titans. Against that IG player, do you really think you need the Sanguinor to have re-rolls in order to kill his HQ? You'd be better off with a rule that made ordnance always scatter.

 

For many of us, the humble librarian is the answer at HQ. No, he will not be going toe to toe with Abaddon, Logan, Greater Daemons, and what have you. What he will do is provide psychic defense for your army, while bringing a couple of psychic powers that can help defend your army or boost the power of a squad that needs it. And all for the low cost of 100 points.

 

Armies can be built around the Sanguinor. Make use of his aura and the sarge boost, and he is a downright deadly character, without even considering the fact that he is a CC beast.

 

Aren't most of the BA SC's usually CC beasts? I've heard some nasty things about Dante, and Astroth as well. Even both forms of Tycho are fairly good from my basic understanding. I think the only ones I'd avoid in CC without a huge squad is the Cuerlbo (sp) and Lemartes. Yes an s6 chainsword is nice but he doesn't have the stat lines of the bigger names that are HQs and Lemartes can't be taken on his own.

[JamesI]

Aren't most of the BA SC's usually CC beasts? I've heard some nasty things about Dante, and Astroth as well. Even both forms of Tycho are fairly good from my basic understanding. I think the only ones I'd avoid in CC without a huge squad is the Cuerlbo (sp) and Lemartes. Yes an s6 chainsword is nice but he doesn't have the stat lines of the bigger names that are HQs and Lemartes can't be taken on his own.

Most of our Special characters are good in close. Corbulo is pretty good, but he is only strength 5 (with rending) not strength 6. Remember, the +1 strength from furious charge does not apply to models who have a weapon that hits at a set strength (Corbulo, Astorath, Seth).

[kharn_the_betrayer]

Aren't most of the BA SC's usually CC beasts? I've heard some nasty things about Dante, and Astroth as well. Even both forms of Tycho are fairly good from my basic understanding. I think the only ones I'd avoid in CC without a huge squad is the Cuerlbo (sp) and Lemartes. Yes an s6 chainsword is nice but he doesn't have the stat lines of the bigger names that are HQs and Lemartes can't be taken on his own.

Most of our Special characters are good in close. Corbulo is pretty good, but he is only strength 5 (with rending) not strength 6. Remember, the +1 strength from furious charge does not apply to models who have a weapon that hits at a set strength (Corbulo, Astorath, Seth).

 

 

Ooops thought it was 6, should have double checked that. That is me just not checking things.

[Eorek]

Sure the sanguinor is good... at a high cost...(think enough people here already explained why).

And yes he'll beat most HQs... Problem with him is really surviving the shooting phase, his t4 w3 2+/3++ makes him a good target for small arms fire which will usually bring him down without a massive amount which would be required for t6 mephiston/a independant character in a squad.

 

I've fielded most HQs in my games, but I'm afraid that sanguinor has given me the feeling that he's good on the paper, but bad on the field

 

- Sanguinor can be used as a supporter and being played more defensively than I usually play... But who invests in one of the most expensive characters around in order to play him defensively?

 

- My advice if you want a sledgehammer in your army : Pick mephsiton... He can deal better with almost everything... and quite well with the stuff that sanguinor would attack. Or another character placed into a squad like dante/asorath... they usually survive better due to a meatshield known as assault marines ;)

- A real powerhouse people usually overlook is Lemartes... get him and a deathcompany squad to fill the sanguinors points and you have yourself a unit that scores more wounds on the charge than most other units in the game(even more if Mr. Lemartes takes a wound).

- Or the simplest (and perhaps pointwise best) unit around for dealing with everything that has a toughness value/ less than rear armour 11: A furioso/deathcompany dreadnought with blood talons^^

 

Or... as I once did in a 1000 points game: Run both sanguinor and mephiston ^_^

[RDubbs]

Sure the sanguinor is good... at a high cost...(think enough people here already explained why).

And yes he'll beat most HQs... Problem with him is really surviving the shooting phase, his t4 w3 2+/3++ makes him a good target for small arms fire which will usually bring him down without a massive amount which would be required for t6 mephiston/a independant character in a squad.

 

Oh. I was just planning to run him up with the rest of my jump infantry behind a tank wall, but from the sound of it, that won't work.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run him in every DoA army I've played. He is just that good as far as I am concerned. Once you learn how to protect him he's money in the bank.

 

G :)

[Capt.blood]

He usually dies, even when played well. However, I think in a DoA list he is totally worth it. He is designed to hide and pick on guys that are weaker than him, (like biker nobs ;-) ).

 

Sanguinor is an elite HQ for elite DoA armies. I take him, Dante, and Lemartes in the same list. Not really cheesy, I usually only have about 20 models.

[Warsmith IV]

There is one use for his ability to defeat other HQs... Vlash of Heroes, from the Battle Missions book.

 

Having said that, my Grey Knights came up against a BA army with the Sanguinor in Clash of Heroes a couple of weaks ago, and Draigo destroyed him.

[BA.Rauk]

Giving one instance where one Combat oriented HQ kills another is a poor representation of an HQ choice's ability. I've had Mephiston kill Abbadon 4/5 times I've thrown him into combat with him, now you ask yourself- should this happen? No, as Abbadon has an Inv save and mephiston doesn't- but it has. So by this representation Mephiston is a vastly superior combat character to Abbadon- which he obviously isn't.

[Twisted100]

can you tell me how ghazkull vs the sanguinor worked out when you put him in?

 

It doesn't mater if its 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 10 its up to the dice gods.

 

we've all played games where that one model should have won or lost hands down and its gone the other way.

[RDubbs]

There is one use for his ability to defeat other HQs... Vlash of Heroes, from the Battle Missions book.

 

Having said that, my Grey Knights came up against a BA army with the Sanguinor in Clash of Heroes a couple of weaks ago, and Draigo destroyed him.

 

Well, sure, luck of the dice is everything. I was just saying, statistically speaking, that the Sanguinor should win most of those fights.

 

Having said that, I ultimately think I'm going to go with the Black Templars. I can only hope that when their new codex comes out, they have something as beastly as Draigo in it!

 

can you tell me how ghazkull vs the sanguinor worked out when you put him in?

 

It doesn't mater if its 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 10 its up to the dice gods.

 

we've all played games where that one model should have won or lost hands down and its gone the other way.

 

I actually didn't check Ghazkull, but that would be a good one!

[ServoBadger]

I used to take the Sanguinor and a squad of Sanguinary Guard with a Sanguinary Priest (NOT with the Sanguinor attached, I know he's not an IC!) in virtually every game, but my regular Orky opponent got so annoyed with them carving their way through his army and refusing to die that 40k became very little fun. It's pretty much the same story with my Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons. If a unit is considered "broken", whether or not that's actually the case, it really sucks the fun out of the game.

 

So that's why I don't take him any more. My new HQ is a Captain with an Honour Guard and a Blood Fist Furioso in a Stormraven. I don't tend to do nearly as well, but the games are more fun.

[Artemis360]

Theres no point judging his ability to kill the other characters in your codex, youve got to consider what enemies he can kill. Who do you face most? If your most frequent opponents are going to be IG he's useless. If you're facing Chaos Space Marines or monstrous creature heavy tyranids then he's more applicable. Ultimately, I firmly believe that while the Blood Angels book is strong, our special characters are pretty weak in comparison to what other books give you. A simple librarian or chaplain is often the way to go.

[Joasht]

I personally like the Sanguinor A LOT, my Chapter Master "counts as" Sanguinor.

He is basically a hybrid of a support and combat character; while he is decently killy himself (actually, he's pretty scary) but he brings along that extra +1A to all units within 6" of him and in a sense, that "Sergeant buff", given the significant stat increase, can actually be factored into his price.

 

The way I see him, roughly points-wise (note that I'll be cobbling together the points from several codices, so the combination below to "replicate" the Sanguinor doesn't actually exist):

If you took a Captain with a Mastercrafted Frostblade in Artificer Armor with a Storm Shield, Jump Pack, Banner and Saga of the Bear, that would run you about 260-270 points so you pay that tiny difference to "upgrade" your Sergeant to a "Commander" (i.e. 2W generic Captain guy in the old Marine codices). He does lose IC (ouch) but has more attacks and better WS, so make what you will. I personally really like the Sergeant upgrade because it makes your Sergeant that much more killy and survivable (in my army, the worst case scenario is a WS5 3A Powerfist; thats over 50% more killyness), and that Sergeant cannot be targetted like an IC anyway.

 

I'm not saying that he's a bargain, but my point is, he's not really overcosted. Its a lot of eggs in one basket, sure, but at least he's a fairly dependable "basket" with his good saves and Eternal Warrior, as long as you don't stand him out in the open in front of an entire army's worth of guns.....