Woo! Updates

[Inquisitor =D=]

Spotted this over in the Downloads section of Forgeworld.

 

Updates

 

This means I CAN use my Hector Rex model. Hurray! Nothing too special but cool nonetheless. Any suggestion on what role these two could fill? (other than the obvious...)

 

=]D[=

[Oiad]

Hehe, keep up Inquisitor =D=, its been out for weeks now! ;)

 

Still, happy they knocked 100+ points off the point-tag. Now they've just got to give him rules worth giving a cuss about...

[Cmdr Shepard]

Spotted this over in the Downloads section of Forgeworld.

 

Updates

 

This means I CAN use my Hector Rex model. Hurray! Nothing too special but cool nonetheless. Any suggestion on what role these two could fill? (other than the obvious...)

 

=]D[=

 

Several players have issues with allowing the use of FW models and rules. I never saw a logic behind such theories because everything FW produce is official GW material. IA are expansions fo Warhammer 40k. The thesis "we can use only what appear in a codex and IA is not a codex etc.." is fallacious because it will make FAQs not usable ( they are not a codex but and update: exactly what IA are, an expasion, an update to the army list).

 

However don't exepct every player will let you use them. You can stll choose to not play against them, though.

 

Hector Rex is quite interesting: Sanctuary and dark excomunication in a single package, pleasing. If you don't need Coteaz for unlock troops henchmen he could be a more combat oriented character but he is still a T3 model.

[number6]

Several players have issues with allowing the use of FW models and rules. I never saw a logic behind such theories because everything FW produce is official GW material. IA are expansions fo Warhammer 40k. The thesis "we can use only what appear in a codex and IA is not a codex etc.." is fallacious

There are many legitimate reasons why players might disallow FW rules.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Yeah, I know I'm a little behind the times but times is hard sir. :)

 

IDK I don't see Rex being worth taking so far but Lok on the other hand may be worth it. Stick him with a couple Jokero and Heavy Weapon servitors and I bet he'd make a beautiful back-field firebase. Heavy Weapons with night vision is pretty nifty, not game changing but nifty.

 

=]D[=

[Angelis Mortis]

Several players have issues with allowing the use of FW models and rules. I never saw a logic behind such theories because everything FW produce is official GW material. IA are expansions fo Warhammer 40k. The thesis "we can use only what appear in a codex and IA is not a codex etc.." is fallacious

There are many legitimate reasons why players might disallow FW rules.

 

Unless it has to do with flyers and Apoc models which are not normal 40k rules anyways, there is no legit reason to refuse to play people with FW models. None. (Note I said "refuse to play against" and not "allow", no opponent chooses my list for me).

[Cmdr Shepard]

Several players have issues with allowing the use of FW models and rules. I never saw a logic behind such theories because everything FW produce is official GW material. IA are expansions fo Warhammer 40k. The thesis "we can use only what appear in a codex and IA is not a codex etc.." is fallacious

There are many legitimate reasons why players might disallow FW rules.

 

I didn't want to appear rude in my statements. Several FW models are obviously expesive even though a TDA IC costs as much as a finecast one. Sadly Warhammer 40k is expensive if you want to collect a great number of models. If we want to not use expensive models then we should play against players who fields apoc formations since many of themy cost as much as a single army. Beside three standard Land Raders cost more than a single FW land raider but no one have issues with a player who field three of them or three stormravens, just to quote another expensive plastic kit.

 

GW miniature are not cheap. This is not unknown: other companies sell miniatures to a lower price but a great number of players continue to buy Citadel minis. It's their choice.

Everyone if free to not play against a particular player but in my opinion the mere cost of FW model is just a parsonal taste.

 

I know many players say FW rule are unbalanced but several codex rules share than same nature. I'm reading IA 10 and I must say the limitation of Vanguard Siege list does not advantage FW models, since in order to win you must achieve a further condition.

 

Apoc models are not intented for standard 40k games but personally I don't see anything wrong or unfair in using other FW rules. Just my personal opinion. I never played FW models because I'm aware of the opinions you mentioned but this ruins part of the fun. Still my two cents, though.

 

EDIT: In the end I'm not saying consent is not needed. Agreement between player is required even in placing sceneray on the table. I'm just saying several players are prejudiced against you if you ask them to use FW models.

It happened to me. I want to buy a couple of FW models and I asked several players at my local store if they want to play against them. Few were very unpolite saying I'm unfair or that I want to cheat just because I asked them to use FW in a friendly game. That is, in my opinion, against the spirit of the game.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I get what you're saying number6, but at the same time, why not just throw down the gauntlet? So long as they have the relevant Imperial Armour or pdf available to reference (people bring tablet PC's to games sometimes now, pretty sweet for checking those experimental characters etc), I don't see a problem.

 

In competitive games (ie tourneys) you obviously won't see FW allowed (simply because organisers struggle enough to manage the legal codicies and main rules), but in friendly or local games, why not? At worst, you figure out they have some super unit, and are motivated to go get one yourself. At best, you prove to your opponent why FW sometimes drops the ball with making their units work (and by drop I mean fling down a bottomless pit of fail).

 

Then again, I'm the guy that okay'd a dude fielding a home-made Tech-Marine Dreadnought that healed a Dreadbash army of like 5 into my Tau army, and still walked away amused. I may have something wrong with me :)

[Angelis Mortis]

You know, I have an entire army made up almost exclusively of FW models. I have a DKoK Siege Army w/3 Gorgons, 3 Hvy Mortars, 3 Thudd Guns, 3x 40 Man DKoK Platoons, 3x Earthshakers, 3xMedusas, a Vanquisher, 2xDemolishers, 3x Baneblades, and a Reaver Titan. Now, Apoc models aside, I have never had anyone have a problem playing my list. Win or lose, my games generally wind up with the vast majority of my list wiped out. Anyone who would have an issue with that is just being a poor sport.

[jeffersonian000]

I find it interesting that many people object to the use of FW rules, but posters here keep confusing the word "rules" with the word "models". Most people have no issue with FW models, just their odd rules. Why people fail to read that, I have no idea.

 

SJ

[Angelis Mortis]

I find it interesting that many people object to the use of FW rules, but posters here keep confusing the word "rules" with the word "models". Most people have no issue with FW models, just their odd rules. Why people fail to read that, I have no idea.

 

SJ

 

Those same people tend to then say "the FW rules suck anyways, so why do you want to use them?" to which I ask "if they suck, why can't I use them?".

[Brother Dylan]

Hope they get around to updating our formations, and perhaps adding some new ones.

[number6]

What jeffersonian said. It's not the models I object to. It's the rules. And there are exceptions I pointed out in my link. (E.g., Inquisitorial updates.) Most people I game with possess FW models. (I am one of the few who do not.) But nobody uses FW rules for the models. They just run them as "normal" units. Like the dread drop pod that lets dreads assault upon drop? They just run it as a regular drop pod ... only a much cooler drop pod. :lol:

 

At worst, you figure out they have some super unit, and are motivated to go get one yourself. At best, you prove to your opponent why FW sometimes drops the ball with making their units work (and by drop I mean fling down a bottomless pit of fail).

I don't think the reasonable solution to people bringing broken FW rules to the table is to insist that I also go out and buy unbelievably expensive FW models and the accompanying expensive rules books. FW is an expansion, and not one officially endorsed by GW. Just because you want to play Planetstrike does not mean I also have to play it. :) Just because you want to expand 40K beyond its core does not mean I have to join you. If you buy and want to play FW, you do have to respect that it is outside the core of the game, and you have no right to force people to join you unwillingly.

 

If I ever play Eldar or Dark Eldar, and my opponent puts down a land raider achilles or two (that's the one with the thunderfire turret and impervious armour, yes?), I'll just pick up my army and go home. This person is not interested in having a fair game with me. The unit is demonstrably broken, as neither of these armies have weapons capable of scratching the paint on the vehicle. I find it incredibly irresponsible of FW to produce rules like that, and it's prime evidence of their inability to do as good a job as even GW. (And we complain enough about GW as it is. For all their faults, they're WAY better than FW.)

 

Again, I don't disapprove of all of FW's rules. But the fact that they are unbalanced and unreliable is problematic. Even my local FW aficionados admit to the problems and we regularly come to agreements about what will and won't be allowed at our gaming tables. Some rules make the cut, many don't. This strikes me as fair.

[Cmdr Shepard]

So long as they have the relevant Imperial Armour or pdf available to reference (people bring tablet PC's to games sometimes now, pretty sweet for checking those experimental characters etc), I don't see a problem.

 

In competitive games (ie tourneys) you obviously won't see FW allowed (simply because organisers struggle enough to manage the legal codicies and main rules), but in friendly or local games, why not?

This is exactly my point of view.

 

I don't think the reasonable solution to people bringing broken FW rules to the table is to insist that I also go out and buy unbelievably expensive FW models and the accompanying expensive rules books. FW is an expansion, and not one officially endorsed by GW. Just because you want to play Planetstrike does not mean I also have to play it. :) Just because you want to expand 40K beyond its core does not mean I have to join you. If you buy and want to play FW, you do have to respect that it is outside the core of the game, and you have no right to force people to join you unwillingly.

 

If I ever play Eldar or Dark Eldar, and my opponent puts down a land raider achilles or two (that's the one with the thunderfire turret and impervious armour, yes?), I'll just pick up my army and go home. This person is not interested in having a fair game with me. The unit is demonstrably broken, as neither of these armies have weapons capable of scratching the paint on the vehicle. I find it incredibly irresponsible of FW to produce rules like that, and it's prime evidence of their inability to do as good a job as even GW. (And we complain enough about GW as it is. For all their faults, they're WAY better than FW.)

 

Again, I don't disapprove of all of FW's rules. But the fact that they are unbalanced and unreliable is problematic. Even my local FW aficionados admit to the problems and we regularly come to agreements about what will and won't be allowed at our gaming tables. Some rules make the cut, many don't. This strikes me as fair.

 

Of course you can just pick up your army and go home but the same decision may apply to conventional codex rules too. If a player does not want to play against an army he considers "designed" to destroy his own he can refuse to play . It's his right. My point was different. If a game is a friendly one why don't allow you friend to try a couple of FW rules just for the sake of fun and curiosity?

 

Beside even a standard codex may create such issues. For example DE or Eldar players would have the same problems to take down monoliths.

DE can counter a LR achilles with their grenades that de facto ignore armour value. Beside LR achilles is not needed to inflict heavy casualties on DE ;)

 

Back to Necron codex: there is no longer a single weapon that ignores inv. save except from necron codex itself. The Callidus have the same weapon and it only inflicts instant death. Many players will consider that unfair and they can decide to not play against C'tan. That's not limited to FW rules.

No wise person want to force anyone to play under FW rules. In fact no one can force a person to play a game. I had issue with a player who frequently fields illegal lists and I'll never play with him.

The original discussion, at least the one I started, was about the "friendly etiquette".

"Hey I bought a forge world model, can you let me try its rules on the table?" It is a favour asked to a friend. I don't refuse a so simple favour to a friend of mine. We have fun for a couple of hours and next time I'd let him try it by himself, if he wants.

 

EDIT: typing error corrected

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think the point number6 is making is this: Just because there's a Games Workshop label on a Forge World product does not mean that you should assume everyone everywhere will play you with it. Ask. That is all... be prepared for people to sometimes say no. People play to have fun, if the game isn't going to be fun for both players why play it? If I want to play my just for fun Tau army where I am taking units that I like the fluff of without regard to combat effectiveness (one of my troops choices is a 6 man EMP Commando squad, then another is a group of Gue'vesa... can we say a single IG squad in a Tau list? Yeah, there's firepower for ya :lol: My first Forge World acquisition for them is either an XV9 or a Baggage Great Knarloc for a Troops choice... yeah.. I'm in it for the win factor :lol: ) and someone throws down their hard core tourney list... well.. it won't be as fun of a game for me when we all know I'm probably going to get stomped. Or setting up a "breakthrough" style mission with someone's all foot Guard army trying to break through and exit the opposite table edge. Or someone merely wanting to play an objective claiming game and the dice rolling "kill points."

 

Yes, if you bought a fancy Forge World model lots of people will let you use the rules for it. But some won't. It is polite to ask, to discuss, to ensure that both players are okay with things and aren't going to mind the game. My advice is still "If you have some Forge World models you wanna bring to a pick-up game, make two lists... one with them, and one without with just plain Codex choices." This way you can ask if they mind you fielding them, show the rules, and if they say no, then play without them. Have fun. If you're gaming with a regular group of mates, I advise you do to as number6 is suggesting and see what models people are okay with, and what ones they aren't. Sometimes you can try something.. perhaps they'll be fine with it if you cost it at +10 points or something, perhaps "You can use that in Apoc, but not a regular game" or some other solution. Gaming is a social contract... everyone has to agree and make sure everyone is having fun, otherwise it won't happen.

 

So in the end.. ask. Do not assume. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or, in another spin to the message, be prepared for your opponent not to play you, regardless of Forgeworld minis or not.

 

You bring a tricked out Tourny list and they've got a for fun fluff list, with no Forgeworld in sight, it would be just as unbalanced a game, and expect not to play.

 

End of the day, there's *nothing* stopping anyone using Forgeworld units or rules. They are just as official as any GW rules or your Codex. No permission is required to use them.

 

But there's nothing to stop your opponent not playing you, if they don't feel the game isn't going to be fun. From bringing WAAC lists or using Forgeworld stuff.

[Valerian]

Hmm, so is it safe to say that Forgeworld screws up the rules as much as the Black Library screws up the fluff? It's too bad that both organizations are wholly part of the GW corporation, but can't even meet GWs low standards.

 

Oops, I just turned this into a bit of a rant. To go back on-topic, GW doesn't seem interested in designating much as "official". Even their FAQs are just internal house rules, although all of their consumers treat them as gospel (since we've got nothing better to depend on in the void of clear rules).

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't think the reasonable solution to people bringing broken FW rules to the table is to insist that I also go out and buy unbelievably expensive FW models and the accompanying expensive rules books. FW is an expansion, and not one officially endorsed by GW. Just because you want to play Planetstrike does not mean I also have to play it. Just because you want to expand 40K beyond its core does not mean I have to join you. If you buy and want to play FW, you do have to respect that it is outside the core of the game, and you have no right to force people to join you unwillingly.

 

Oh you, deliberately misrepresenting me/missing my point entirely :) . I'm just sayin, chillax on the whole 'they're not strictly legal' line, and play for fun. As I said, no competitive game environment will let you use them (a shame, because I would prefer a themed tourney of say 'Badab War' or 'Siege of Vracks', to 'who can bring the best Deathstar with support?'). But for friendly matches between friends, or against semi-randoms at a local store, why not? If you lose, you can grumble about 'stupid FW shenanigans, what do you mean lance doesn't work?'. If you win, kudos all round. As I said though, I'm weird, because I take literally all-comers (including people's even more questionable home-brew units).

 

Hmm, so is it safe to say that Forgeworld screws up the rules as much as the Black Library screws up the fluff? It's too bad that both organizations are wholly part of the GW corporation, but can't even meet GWs low standards.

 

Yes, give into your hate. Feel it's power ;) :lol:

 

Srsly though, I'll reiterate what I said before; FW does a lot of 'we made this cool model, now lets make up some hilariously bad rules and points costs for it'. When something truly OP comes out, its more by accident than design. Of course Titans are insane (in fact, you can pretty much guarantee any of their super-heavies were conceived while on drugs), but you'd be surprised how much people shell out for the supposedly 'broken' smaller stuff. That LR Achilles that did the rounds on the internets? 300pts minimum. Most of the extended Imperial Guard motor pool? Designed for 4th edition, or made redundant by better/identical inclusions in the legit codex. Pretty much 90% of their special characters they dream up? Utterly useless, with the occasional dude who can sorta compare to the characters from the legit codicies. And lets not get into the themed army structures they make up to fit their scenarios (oh Elysian Drop Guard, you so gimped).

 

Oops, I just turned this into a bit of a rant. To go back on-topic, GW doesn't seem interested in designating much as "official". Even their FAQs are just internal house rules, although all of their consumers treat them as gospel (since we've got nothing better to depend on in the void of clear rules).

 

Eh, it's all a judgement call man. I know in my gaming circle, we slightly modify the rules/FAQ rulings when we collectively (and more importantly, unanimously) decide it's retarded. I'm sure everyone does it to some extent. Case in point; if someone forgets their Reserve rolls, we don't let them suddenly execute them (you snooze you lose), but we give a re-roll to their next attempt in their next turn. Not that it makes much difference, I roll 1's like a pro for Reserves (so glad they threw GK a bone with 'Psychic Communion').