Jump infantry moving like infantry.

[MagicMan]

''Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish.''

 

 

 

Alright cool, can move 6'' if i feel like it, but the next bit has me confused.

 

 

''However if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test.''

 

 

 

Does this only apply if im using the jump packs (being jump infantry) or does it apply if i choose to move them as infantry too (Being infantry) ?

[Grey Mage]

Its part of moving as jump infantry.

[DarkGuard]

RAW they take the dangerous terrain test. RAI, they don't. You never have to move full movement distance, so why say you can move like infantry, and then say you still need to take dangerous terrain tests if moving through cover like infantry. The way myself and my group plays it is that if you decide to jump, you take the dangerous terrain test. If you decide to walk, you move slower, have to take difficult terrain, but not dangerous terrain, seems the most sensible way to do it IMO.

[Arikel]

Eh from what I understand is that if they choose to move like normal infantry (6 inches max, do not cross impassable terrain, take the d6 to see how far you can move through the difficult terrain), they no longer count as jump infantry but count as infantry for that turn for the purposes of movement. As they are no longer "Moving jump infantry" but only "moving infantry" for this movement phase, the dangerous terrain test would not apply.

[Morollan]

Eh from what I understand is that if they choose to move like normal infantry (6 inches max, do not cross impassable terrain, take the d6 to see how far you can move through the difficult terrain), they no longer count as jump infantry but count as infantry for that turn for the purposes of movement. As they are no longer "Moving jump infantry" but only "moving infantry" for this movement phase, the dangerous terrain test would not apply.

 

Exactly how I interpret it and seems to make perfect sense.

[MagicMan]

Thanks, thats what i thought too.

 

 

If you use the 12'' Jump move you don't even need to roll for difficult terrain movement, do you? You just land in the middle, hence the dangerous terrain tests.

[Arikel]

Thanks, thats what i thought too.

 

 

If you use the 12'' Jump move you don't even need to roll for difficult terrain movement, do you? You just land in the middle, hence the dangerous terrain tests.

 

 

Exactly, if you use the jump feature you don't bother with the d6 and can move up to the full 12 inches, taking the dangerous test instead if you started or landed into difficult terrain.

[Roland Durendal]

Sadly, while it's more "fair" to play it if they move like Infantry they don't take a DT, the RAW is pretty clear. They must take a DT regardless of whether they move as Infantry or Jump Infantry because their unit type, Jump Infantry, never changes, and the rules or DT affects the Unit Type.

 

Sorry bud that's RAW. Now if you and your friends have house ruled it to something else, more power to ya and as long as you enjoy it go for it. Just know that if it ever came to a tournament or some such event, you'd have to play it correctly. Hope this helps.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes , the RAW is clear.

If you use the Jet Packs you also get the bonus'(12" move, jump over models/terrain, no difficult terrain tests) and downsides (dangerous terrain test for starting/end movement)

Thankfully you are given a choice BRB pg.52

"This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish."

the next section of the rules are for them moving "When using jump packs"

 

Also note that an assault squad always uses the normal infantry rules for assault moves, with none of the jump pack rules.

 

Nowhere does the rules state that the penalties are for being 'jump infantry' rather it is for 'using jump packs'

[timmytool]

Yes , the RAW is clear.

If you use the Jet Packs you also get the bonus'(12" move, jump over models/terrain, no difficult terrain tests) and downsides (dangerous terrain test for starting/end movement)

Thankfully you are given a choice BRB pg.52

"This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish."

the next section of the rules are for them moving "When using jump packs"

 

Also note that an assault squad always uses the normal infantry rules for assault moves, with none of the jump pack rules.

 

Nowhere does the rules state that the penalties are for being 'jump infantry' rather it is for 'using jump packs'

 

Unfortunately Roland Durendal is on the money on this one.

 

BRB P52 "HOWERVER, if a moving JUMP INFANTRY MODEL begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

 

The bold text shows it is a clear statement for the unit type free of modes of movement unlike the previous sentence that uses the text "When using jump packs,...."

 

Unfortunately the BRB makers dropped the ball on this one or put it like this on purpose(I think the former), as the "move as normal infantry if they wish." does not negate the unit type rule of dangerous terrain test :) as it might move like "normal infantry" but as the FAQ C:CSM has shown

 

Q. Does taking ‘Wings’ classify a model as jump

infantry?

A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump

infantry. Note that the model must actually be converted

to have a pair of wings rather than a jump pack.

 

moving as does not change the unit type so it's still affected by jump infantry rules (note the 12' move and move over terrain is not Jump Infantry rules but rules when choosing to use Jump packs).

 

I think RAI it should not have the test but this is RAW and if it has the Jump infantry unit type it takes the test when ending or starting in difficult terrain.

[SeattleDV8]

In fact you just proved my point.

If the rules worked as you said the Deamon prince with wings would never have to take a dangerous terrain test as he is not jump infantry.

The only reason he does is that he uses the wargear that makes him 'move as' jump infantry, just like the assault troops lose the penalties when they 'move as' infantry.

 

Also the line you quoted followed the line I quoted "When using a jump pack"

 

The rules are when moving with a jump pack (or wings) you get all the bonuses and penalties.

If not then you don't.

[timmytool]

I was going to add the point that just like the argument that the NFW doomfist out of C:GK dont double the Nemesis Dreadknight's strength as he is not a Walker likewise the Deamon Prince in fact does not take the test(and no faq says he does ether). Just like that argument it can be counter argued that the wording that lets it "move like" also lets it be affected but the Type only wordings (in the unit type section only)

 

the sad thing for jump infantry is in this case it does not remove the start and end test for jump infantry when in difficult terrain as their is no statement in the infantry movement section that negates the unit type rule for DT tests.

[Grey Mage]

Except its status as a unit type rule doesnt change its malleable nature.

 

You are making the assumption that the rules after "this is optional" are not entirely optional despite being in the paragraph. I would say that they are- the rules following that clause are for when you take the option to move as jump infantry, and are only added on in those situations.

[thade]

Seattle and Grey Mage are in the right of it: bottom-line, if you move over 6" (up to 12") as jump infantry, you risk dangerous terrain checks when starting or ending a move in difficult terrain; not so if you move 6" or less (i.e. you don't use the jump packs).

[Agrab]

Seattle and Grey Mage are in the right of it: bottom-line, if you move over 6" (up to 12") as jump infantry, you risk dangerous terrain checks when starting or ending a move in difficult terrain; not so if you move 6" or less (i.e. you don't use the jump packs).

 

 

*jumps into the fray*

I'm not sure you can say that they are correct. The rules simply say that this UNIT TYPE must take this test on their movement if starting/ending in the terrain (note, but not if they assault through it). It says nothing about using jump packs must, or if flying must. Rather it is simply saying the TYPE must, period.

So, there is nothing that changes the type, merely changes how it moves. As such, I think RAW is quite clear that assaulting 6, or even moving <6, still requires the test.

[Grey Mage]

Seattle and Grey Mage are in the right of it: bottom-line, if you move over 6" (up to 12") as jump infantry, you risk dangerous terrain checks when starting or ending a move in difficult terrain; not so if you move 6" or less (i.e. you don't use the jump packs).

 

 

*jumps into the fray*

I'm not sure you can say that they are correct. The rules simply say that this UNIT TYPE must take this test on their movement if starting/ending in the terrain (note, but not if they assault through it). It says nothing about using jump packs must, or if flying must. Rather it is simply saying the TYPE must, period.

So, there is nothing that changes the type, merely changes how it moves. As such, I think RAW is quite clear that assaulting 6, or even moving <6, still requires the test.

The sentences preceding it state that the movement is optional, and then discuss what the movement does. The paragraph is all connected, and all referencing the same subject- what happens when you move as jump infantry.

[thade]

The sentences preceding it state that the movement is optional, and then discuss what the movement does. The paragraph is all connected, and all referencing the same subject- what happens when you move as jump infantry.

^ This.

[timmytool]

The sentences preceding it state that the movement is optional, and then discuss what the movement does. The paragraph is all connected, and all referencing the same subject- what happens when you move as jump infantry.

^ This.

 

No 2 sentences before the DT test, is an option then one sentence before is rules for one of the choices "when using Jump packs" then, the sentence that says all models of this unit type make the test.

 

three sentences

 

option (normal or with jump pack).

when jump pack do.... .

ether way take test if starting or finishing.... .

 

they are separate sentences and the sentence before clearly said when using jump pack while the dt test sentence clearly said "if a moving jump infantry model..."

[SeattleDV8]

Except it doesn't say 'all' in that section.

Where it does say 'all' is when it tells us they can Deep Strike.

 

The context is clear, you can use the jump pack and get the plus and minuses or choose to move like infantry , using the infantry rules.

It may be different sentences but it is one paragraph.

[timmytool]

unlike (almost)all the other unit type rules the movement section for jump infantry has multiple movement rules in the one and only paragraph. With out argument we can agree three is a minimum of 2 rules their, the optional movement modes(and related) and the deep strike usr. I believe there is also rules separate from the movement mode rule namely from DT test onwards up to the deep strike usr.

 

As it is clear their are at minimum 2 separate rules in the movement paragraph the statement that their in the same paragraph and must be linked is nullified

[JamesI]

I think we can all agree jump infantry's ability to move as normal infantry is meaningless if they still have to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests. Why roll to see how far we can move and roll for dangerous when we can just jump 12 inches and roll for dangerous?

[timmytool]

agreed that's why I wish GW could write rules.....

[thade]

I think we can all agree jump infantry's ability to move as normal infantry is meaningless if they still have to take difficult/dangerous terrain tests. Why roll to see how far we can move and roll for dangerous when we can just jump 12 inches and roll for dangerous?

Definitely.

 

This falls under GW's universal implied FAQ...which is the annoying "What? Are you daft?" clause. There are some things that they assume to be so obvious that they do not bare elucidation. It's this very mentality that they seem to have which fuels the fires under most of our discussions on this board. I'm pretty sure it stems from "theme and visualization"; literally, if other models can move 6" (or roll 2d6 and move the best single die result in inches through tough terrain) without jump packs, then the guys with jump packs can forgo using them to move the same way (as they have not given up their legs in taking jump packs). Launching themselves through the air without a clear take-off or landing area exposes them to risk, reflected as a Dangerous Terrain Test.

 

My point is that there is some balance between "game balance" (i.e. should units which can move up to 12" be penalized for it under certain circumstances, such as moving into and around terrain which may provide cover for enemy units) and "theme" (rocket-packing yourself into dense overbrush and forest is libel to get you hurt, armor or no). Where GW makes the call as to which 'balance' wins out is at times anyone's guess.

[Roland Durendal]

Regardless of how we wish it was played and how GW needs to clarify their rules better, it all boils down to the simple fact that:

 

"If a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test." There are no exceptions here as to HOW they moved, just whether they, the unit type Jump Infantry, in fact move.

 

Assault Marine moves 9" over difficult terrain as it used it's jump pack. A Dangerous Terrain test ensues

 

Assault Marine 2 decides to walk through difficult terrain like normal infantry b/c he's afraid of heights. Dangerous Terrain test ensues.

 

Just because he decides to "move as normal infantry" does not make him normal infantry and absolve him from following the explicit rules for his unit type.

 

Grammatically speaking the "However clause" can be iffy as it can be viewed as relating directly to the preceding clause of using the Jump Pack to move freely, OR it can be equally grammatically correct to be used as a summation statement whereby ALL type of jump infantry movement are brought together with a general, all effecting drawback. I proscribe to this reading as it's the most logical, but I can see how someone can read it in the former.

 

EDIT: And while I think it sucks, per what JamesI said, it is fairly clearly written.

[Grey Mage]

So we should take every sentence in the BRB as self contained, inviolate, and without exception?

 

Thats a horrible idea. Context is everything.