Jump infantry moving like infantry.

[jeffersonian000]

RAP would have any Jump Infantry that walked through terrain rather than jumping treated is normal Infantry for that movement, because they moved as normal Infantry and therefore should be treated as such. RAW does support this interpretation, as does common use of the language. While it can be implied that Jump Infantry can never move as if they were normal Infantry, the rules actually state otherwise. Normal Infantry do not make Dangerous Terrain checks while moving through Difficult Terrain, and Jump Infantry have permission to move as normal Infantry as an optional form of movement. To rule otherwise is to impose a abusively restrictive limitation where none needs to exist.

 

SJ

[thade]

So we should take every sentence in the BRB as self contained, inviolate, and without exception?

 

Thats a horrible idea. Context is everything.

^ This.

 

I feel like lately I've been saying this a lot, but it really still fits.

 

Some rules are glossed over or not at all written out because GW passively counts on the sheer number of legacy players in the game to recall them. Them's the breaks.

 

This argument is so esoteric that it's boring; don't you think? If they use their jump packs, Dangerous Terrain checks are a risk of Difficult Terrain. If they don't use their jump packs, they move just like your Tactical Marines move.

 

People, don't argue just to argue; it's unbecoming. <3 We have bigger fish to fry around here.

[Roland Durendal]

I agree context is everything, which is why it can go either way. Is the "however" clause in context to their movement as Jump Infantry as a unit type (i.e. the whole) or is it in context to the immediate preceding sentence regarding using the jump packs as a form of movement (i.e. the part). Both are equally valid, both don't require a stretch of the imagination, and both are fair and similar readings of the sentence/paragraph w/o "reading into it".

 

And just because you do something "like" something else in this game, doesn't change the fact that you are what you are (as has been argued in other threads regarding other instances endlessly). So just b/c you can move like regular infantry (a type of movement), doesn't make you regular infantry (a unit type).

 

To put it another way, would a Daemon Prince with Wings be affected by the SW power Tempest's Wrath? I don't know off the top of my head what the wording for having wings is, but if it says he may move like Jump Infantry, then TW wouldn't hurt him as it only affects a specific unit type (Jump Infantry) not models that move like it. The DP is still a MC at the end of the day, wings or no, and TW wouldn't affect him. Which sucks for me b/c I love me some TW on my Rune Priests.

 

Ergo, see why it's vital to differentiate between the "like" and the "is". If it's true that Jump troops can move through DT like normal infantry with no penalty (outside of rolling 2d6 and take the highest), then the DP in my example should be able to move 12" with wings like he has a Jump Pack through the area affected by TW and not suffer any penalty.

 

Now if a FAQ has been published stating that a DP (or something similar) with wings (or similar) has to take Dangerous Terrain tests when moving through difficult terrain, then the precedent is set and I could see the jump infantry moving as infantry w/ no penalty being feasible, as the FAQ would thereby be implying that by choosing to move differently the UNIT TYPE changes.

 

That's the big issue here: the rule deals with a unit type (jump infantry) that has two different modes of moving (with jump pack or as normal infantry), but the restriction/penalty isn't confined to one or the other methods of movement, it applies to the unit type as a whole (jump infantry).

 

I can see both sides to this argument, I find it interesting though that no one else can see both sides as being logical.

 

Not to beat a dead horse or to continue the argument, I just feel there are two logical and reasonable readings which any intelligent adult can see and arrive at. :D

 

PS hasn't this appeared elsewhere? I've seen it argued on here before. Seems like it pops up like once every few months.

[Arikel]

It's because it's another textbook example of "How to write rules the wrong way". It's almost as if GW intentionally tries to make it's rule as muddy and unclear as possible. Guess this should be put in the gray area section if people fell that strongly about it, and put in a request to gw to faq it.

[thade]

Guess this should be put in the gray area section if people fell that strongly about it, and put in a request to gw to faq it.

I'm sad to say that the odds such a request to GW would be heard are more or less nil; possibly only larger than the odds they'd answer such a request were it seen.

 

I'm happy to say that the odds this will see the inside of the Grey Area thread are equally small. :D

[Something Wycked]

People, don't argue just to argue; it's unbecoming. <3 We have bigger fish to fry around here.

 

An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.

:)

 

Its really pretty simple. If something "moves as" another unit type, it follows all of that unit's rules. If your Jump Infantry is moving as Infantry, it follows all of the Infantry rules, not some of the Infantry rules and some of the Jump Infantry rules.

[Isiah]

I'm happy to say that the odds this will see the inside of the Grey Area thread are equally small. :lol:

 

^_^ You never know thade...

 

But, I'm in the camp of if you choose to move like infantry then you are infantry as being a temporary condition for jump pack troops who don't use their jump packs. Thus negates them from needing to take the infernal dangerous terrain test.

 

Cheers

I

[Morollan]

But, I'm in the camp of if you choose to move like infantry then you are infantry as being a temporary condition for jump pack troops who don't use their jump packs. Thus negates them from needing to take the infernal dangerous terrain test.

 

This. You are moving as infantry. The DT test applies to Jump Infantry. Are they still Jump Infantry? Yes. Do the DT rules apply in this case? No. Because they are moving as Infantry and Infantry do not take the DT test.

[Dusktiger]

its nice to see there are some sensible people stating they move as infantry and therefore dont take a DT. argueing that they have to because they're type: jump infantry and moving only 6" is like saying because i have a driver's license, i have to behave like a car even when im walking, and therefore must turn a blinking amber light on attached to my left ass cheek to turn left. really? you really want to argue something that common sense alone will say your wrong? if you really believe that strongly, then i suggest if you better go get those signal lights installed in your butt right now, cause your logic states if you drive, you must have signal lights in your butt and yield to every other pedestrian out there too, cause you may be moving like a pedstrian, but your driver's license CLEARLY states, your type: driver.

[Tigrinus]

its nice to see there are some sensible people stating they move as infantry and therefore dont take a DT. argueing that they have to because they're type: jump infantry and moving only 6" is like saying because i have a driver's license, i have to behave like a car even when im walking, and therefore must turn a blinking amber light on attached to my left ass cheek to turn left. really? you really want to argue something that common sense alone will say your wrong? if you really believe that strongly, then i suggest if you better go get those signal lights installed in your butt right now, cause your logic states if you drive, you must have signal lights in your butt and yield to every other pedestrian out there too, cause you may be moving like a pedstrian, but your driver's license CLEARLY states, your type: driver.

 

:lol:

 

What it all comes down to is you and your opponent's common sense. I've never had a foe who made me take dangerous terrain tests on walking assault marines, even though they were aware of the wording of the rules. It's just one of those "GW moments" that defies reasonable intellect.

[thade]

Glad to see we've all come to an agreement on the sensible side of things. :lol:

[Roland Durendal]

Hey I was just playing RAW Devil's Advocate, for as I said, this argument has appeared elsewhere (even here in fact) in times past and the result was a 50-50 split . One side says (the side I was arguing) RAW is clear regardless of whether we like the implications or not (for it is a logical interpretation). The other side argued RAI which is equally valid and logical. Either way I could care less, as I don't use jump troops and most people I see use them don't move through terrain (regardless if its on foot or with a JP), but around it b/c of the oh so awesome cover saves ;)

 

I'm still curious though about the Daemon Prince (or similar creature). If a DP/TMC/etc has wings that allows it to move like Jump Infantry, does TW affect it, as the rules of TW explicitly state it affects unit type Jump Infantry, which a DP/TMC/etc with wings is clearly not.

 

Actually now that I think about it, that's where I saw this argument earlier...it was in reference to TW and Jump Infantry....time to hunt for it...

[Morollan]

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect on these boards over what 'moves as' means. If a unit 'moves as' another unit type then during the movement phase they follow the rules for that unit type. Tempest's Wrath for example causes Jump Infantry to treat all terrain as both difficult and dangerous. So if a unit counts as Jump Infantry when moving then it would need to test for difficult and dangerous terrain regardless of its normal unit type. It is moving as Jump Infantry and Jump Infantry need to take DT tests in difficult terrain. In the same vein, a Jump Infantry unit that 'moves as' normal Infantry would not need to test because Infantry are not one of the affected unit types.

[Roland Durendal]

Found it! I knew I saw it somewhere once before.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=Tempests+Wrath

 

 

My issue that this thread raises, is people argued (and I and GM agreed with) that RAW a DP with wings who moves in Tempests wouldn't be affected as his unit type doesn't change even though he moves like jump infantry. Yet here we're saying the unit type does in fact change when we select to move as something else.

 

So which is it? Does a DP with wings (or similar person...Mephy for instance using wings) who ends their move w/in the 24" TW bubble take dangerous terrain tests for he "moved like jump infantry" or does he not?

 

 

That's what I'm trying to get at, for right now it seems people are content to have what is in effect a double standard: my Jump Pack troops can elect to "move like infantry" through difficult terrain with no penalty (well 2d6 movement), yet when they decide to move like infantry through an area affect by TW they suddenly suffer a penalty (which makes sense as they are moving through dangerous terrain). Likewise, Meph decides to fly through terrain with wings and suffers the penalty for it, but when he flies through the TW area he's unaffected. Which is it? Does unit type remain constant throughout and the penalties associated remain the same or does the unit type change?

 

Also in that thread dswanick summed up my argument fairly well.

 

More food for though as always :rolleyes:

[thade]

More food for though as always :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that it's harder to move through underbrush with a giant set of wings than it is with a barely-bigger-than-my-shoulders jump pack. ;)

 

In all seriousness, I don't see why the DP would suffer when moving 6" or less inches either.

 

I should probably go look in that thread to see if I said otherwise before...but if I did, I was wrong. So there it is.

[Something Wycked]

Prefacing my post with "the way I see it" because this isn't RAW, but I firmly believe it is RAI.

 

Unit type only truly changes when the codex or BRB says it does. IE, when Grey Knights attach Personal Teleporters they change: Infantry > Jump Infantry. The same goes for Marines and Jump Packs; the obvious example is Assault Marines who remove their packs and become Infantry.

 

For this discussion, the unit at hand "counts as" another unit type in the Movement phase only. Their unit type doesn't change, but it might as well change; as a "counts as" unit, for all intents and purposes, it IS that unit type- in this case, only in the Movement phase.

 

So anything moving as Jump Infantry would be affected by TW, and anything not moving as JI wouldn't- walk your Assault Marines or DP with wings only 6" and they aren't affected. Move them more than 6" and they are. Similarly, any unit moving as Jump Infantry into/out of Difficult Terrain will need to take Dangerous Terrain tests while moving as Infantry or Monstrous Creature (etc) would not.

[timmytool]

one FAQ that gives food for thought on the unit type front and interaction of rules is the C:GK's question for dreadknights and doomfists, it does not have the walker type so it does not double its strength.

 

it is a different situation but it does say firmly that if a model uses rules that are for another unit type, parts that are worded to affect a unit type not of its own do not affect it.

 

as GW have ruled that givig wings to a DP does not change its unit type it should not need to take DT tests.... but cant deep strike ether.

[Something Wycked]

as GW have ruled that givig wings to a DP does not change its unit type it should not need to take DT tests.... but cant deep strike ether.

That makes perfect sense; it moves as Jump Infantry, it does not always have all of the Jump Infantry rules, so therefore it cannot Deep Strike.

[Morollan]

That's what I'm trying to get at, for right now it seems people are content to have what is in effect a double standard: my Jump Pack troops can elect to "move like infantry" through difficult terrain with no penalty (well 2d6 movement), yet when they decide to move like infantry through an area affect by TW they suddenly suffer a penalty (which makes sense as they are moving through dangerous terrain). Likewise, Meph decides to fly through terrain with wings and suffers the penalty for it, but when he flies through the TW area he's unaffected. Which is it? Does unit type remain constant throughout and the penalties associated remain the same or does the unit type change?

 

It's not a double standard in my opinion. You treat the model as the unit type that it's acting like at the relevant time. If you are acting as Jump Infantry in the movement phase (DP with Wings, Meph using Wings etc) then you will suffer any effects that apply to Jump Infantry whilst moving. On the other hand, if you are already Jump Infantry but are moving as Infantry then you would not suffer effects that apply to Jump Infantry whilst moving unless they also happen to apply to Infantry.

 

Simples! <squeak>

[JamesI]

as GW have ruled that givig wings to a DP does not change its unit type it should not need to take DT tests.... but cant deep strike ether.

That makes perfect sense; it moves as Jump Infantry, it does not always have all of the Jump Infantry rules, so therefore it cannot Deep Strike.

At least in Codex Chaos Space Marines, Wings allow Deep strike (says so in the codex). Not sure about other books that have wings though.