Thinking about making the switch to drop pods

[Scubasteve04]

Ok heres my situation. I play Imperial fists, and I have been practicing for the upcoming 'Ard Boyz tournament. My battle plan is pretty straight forward, if it wants to shoot me, I assault. If it wants to assault me, I sit back and shoot (with the exception of my Terminators). My list at this point is as follows:

 

Lysander- 200pts

Terminator Librarian, Null zone, Avenger- 125pts

5x TH/SS Terminators, Redeemer, MM, EA- 465pts

5x TH/SS Terminators- 200pts

10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combi-melta, Powerfist, Rhino- 245pts

10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combi-melta, Powerfist, Rhino- 245pts

10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combi-melta, Powerfist, Rhino- 245pts

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts

Auto/las Predator- 120pts

Auto/las Predator- 120pts

Redeemer, MM, EA- 265pts

 

 

 

I have been seriously considering swapping my Rhinos for Drop pods. The main reason for this, is the majority of competitive lists I have been practicing against have been competitive gunline style armies (MEchvet IG, SW or GK razorspam, ect). Any game I win has been won in the assault phase, and any game I lose has been lost in the shooting phase. In a game like this, I want to get my tactical marines in the opponents face, putting krak grenades and powerfists on tanks, and assaulting the small units of troops inside wiping them out quickly.

 

The main problem with the rhino in this situation is crossing the board taking dozens of str 6-8 shots. My latesty game I played against a GK razorspam, I moved all 3 rhinos forward (10 guys inside each because of killpoints) and popped smoke. In his shooting phase, even with cover saves, he still exploded all 3 rhinos, killing many inside and pinning one squad. He continued to shoot at them, practically wiping another squad out. They did little else that game, and my Terminators won me the game in the end.

 

With a drop pod, this situation would never happen. I always get first shot with 8 bolters or a double melta shot against tanks. On turn 2, the survivors are assaulting the gun-line already, at least keeping them busy while the Terminators get in position. This also lets me deal with pesky backfield elements of a gunline (Vindicare, Lootas, Long Fangs, Snipers, Artillery) that would otherwise be the last to die from a mech advance. Against an opponent who wants to get in my face, I just deploy the troops in cover, and drop the pods empty to slow the advance of the enemy while they take pot shots with boltguns and the missile launcher. In capture and control, I can drop 2 full squads on the first turn, and deploy the third squad on my homefield objective, while their drop pod drops empty on the enemy objective.

 

What do you guys think I should do in this situation? Go with drop pods, or stick with rhinos?

[Race Bannon]

Although an army list is present, the question posed is about Tactics.

 

as I don;t play in tournaments and never use the same list twice, all I can do is move this thread to the better forum. :ph34r:

[DarkGuard]

The problem with Drop Pods is that they aren't guaranteed to be accurate. Sure they're unlikely to mishap, but a bad scatter can see you hit the middle of the board, right in-front of your opponent's gun-line with nothing to protect them! Then you'll be wishing you had a Rhino so they could keep the moving. Because the worst thing about Drop Pods is that they aren't mobile, not in the slightest. They're alternative deployment, reliable alternative deployment, but not mobile in the slightest. Once that unit deploys, it's not getting anywhere in a hurry.

 

I think that if the Rhinos have been working fine in the past, then don't worry and keep with them. It sounds like you had a bad game against an army, with lots of bad luck. Having all three Rhinos with smoke popped in one turn with your squads being pinned is painful, but it happens, best to get that out of your system before the tournament. Instead of following a knee-jerk reaction and changing to something else, take the time to sit down and consider. How did you use your Rhinos? Would it have been better to move a bit slower, at a different angle, but block LoS completely? Might it have been better to deploy them behind the Land Raiders? Grey Knights struggle against Land Raiders, so had they gone in-front and the Rhinos behind that would have ended better. Your entire list looks like it's built around supporting those Rhinos. You've got Typhoons that fall into the same armour bracket, you've got Land Raiders for escort, and combined with the Preds they pose big, menacing threats that can soak up the punishment. And you're all mech, giving your opponent's anti-infantry guns nothing to shoot at.

 

But consider Drop Pods. You give them to your Tactical squads. You now have to drop two of your squads right away in the first turn. You either drop them away from the enemy to help preserve them, but encounter mobility issues throughout the rest of the game, and vulnerability issues versus gunfire. Or you chuck them at the enemy's units, hoping to blow up tanks early. But then they get wiped and you've lost 2/3rd of your scoring units and presented easy KPs. And another squad isn't turning up until who knows when, and has the same choice to make as the first two.

 

Or, you could drop them empty. But then this gives you mobility and vulnerability issues again, and if you need to get somewhere you won't be getting there in a hurry unless you boot the Terminators out of their tank.

 

Basically, Drop Pods aren't bad, but in this army they are. Your army just isn't build to use Drop Pods properly, sorry. Drop Pod armies tend to have everything in Drop Pods, using suicidal melta units like Dreads and Sternguard in the first wave, taking out tanks and setting up locator beacons, followed by anti-infantry Tactical squads that can also claim objectives. The way your army is set up the Rhinos will be better in the long run. If you want to use Drop Pods you'll have to think about revamping your entire list. If your still looking for ways to make your armoured company work take a look at this.

 

Hope this helps somewhat.

[TyrionTheImp]

I don't think Drop Pods are going to help you. The simple fact of the matter is you have a rock list, and because you have a rock list the rest of your list suffers.

 

Most standard 2.5k armies are going to crush 3 rhinos easily, and in my opinion, having 30 scoring bodies isn't going to cut it either (I bring 40 at 2k for example). In order to really make those rhinos survive you either need more of them, or enough firepower to silence your opponent's guns.

 

I don't find your list particularly appealing and I personally would start from scratch again with it, but if you can make it work go ahead and try Drop Pods and see if it works better, though I don't see how it will benefit.

[rat of vengence]

Take the rhinos out, and all those shots that were going into them will go into your landspeeders. Not so good...

 

RoV

[SyNidus]

I regularly play Drop Pod armies and have done so in semi-competitive settings(mini-tourney, league)...

 

Darkguard made an excellent point in regards to mech lists and playing them. Personally, it sounds like the issue is not with the list but how they're being played. Practice, try new Tactics with the same old list. Is your deployment focused? are you properly using those land raiders as mobile cover? But the tactica Darkguard gave you and his words are adequate if you are thinking of keeping to Rhinos.

 

But if you're really interested in Drop Pods, then I may be able to help you sir. :(

 

First thing to remember about drop pods is their "nature", like a chess piece, you must learn how they operate.

 

Drop Pods are your fists, they fly in the face of the enemy, they come down and immediately put the opponent on the defensive. But like hands, they can be used to block attacks, get you to different places or taunt the enemy to move into a trap.

 

 

The Purpose of Drop Pods is to cut travel time between one point of the board to another.

It also allows you to set up a armour 12 defensive barrier/wall.

More then Rhinos, they REALLY deliver your marines right where they would be most effective (in rapidfire range of their bolters).

No Travel Time

Safest way to deposit squads of anything, anywhere.

Major distraction

 

On the downside,

they don't give you that added armour

they don't give you long term mobility

-(but my counter point to this is that if deployed correctly, you won't need the Rhino's mobility as the marines are already right where they need to be)

they are immobile once they land

 

Then remember, playing Drop Pods is nowhere as easy as playing Rhinos. Your troops don't have the protection of that sheet of metal around it, they don't get the 12" move unless you make em run.

 

If you've decided that you want drop pods, then go all the way. By this i mean, create a list that supports the drop pods. When alot of people talk about pod lists, all they think of is "I'm forced to drop my marines right in the enemy's face, otherwise it's wasted 40+ points". I don't agree with this. A drop pod does NOT mean you are FORCED to get in their faces. Sometimes it's better to land around an objective or around the focal point of a battle, fortify the position and draw the enemy in.

 

 

I'll use my list as an example. It's not considered the best list, but it will serve to explain my points. (Note: it's 1750 and i personally like to keep my model count low for fluff reasons, at the same time pimping out their wargear.)

 

Shrike

Epistolary w Jp, Null Zone & Gate of Infinity

(Accompanied by 5 Vanguard Vets-JP, Relic Blade, Thunderhammer, 3 LC, 2 SS, 3 Plasmapistols, meltabomb)

 

Ironclad Dread - Drop Pod w Locator Beacon

 

10 Tac - Powerfist, Combi-Melta, Melta, Multimelta - Drop Pod w Locator

10 Tac - Powerfist, Combi-Melta, Melta, Plasmacannon - Drop Pod w Locator

Scout Squad - Telion, 3 Sniper scouts, 1 HB scout

 

Typhoon w HB Lspeeder

Typhoon w HB Lspeeder

 

1750 - roughly.

 

Each element is used for a different purpose, the drop pods are the main strike, always drop them together and in close proximity unless your judgement of the game tells you otherwise. Contrary to RoV's post, Typhoons are great, even without Rhinos. Because the opponent will be pre-occupied with your drop pods, the typhoons will be safe. In all the games i've played with this list, my Typhoons have only died twice, each. Yet they fill the role of mobile long-range support.

 

Shrike, the Libby and Vanguard will either infiltrate or deepstrike in within the range of beacons. This squad + the ironclad are excellent distractions and monsters in their own right. They support the Tactical squads. The librarian is key: Null Zone works wonders against invul saves. Attach him to a tactical squad for Gate of Infinity and have fun, plus you have the mobility of a rhino, though slightly riskier.

 

 

As for your list, i think it could work with drop pods. Your first 2 pods should be placed centrally in relation to objectives(but NOT the center of the board), Zoom up the LRaiders, by the time your second turn arrives, you're whole army(excluding the typhoons and preds) are in a prime position to hold off an enemy assault on the objective, or to stage a combined arms assault on an enemy held objective.

 

 

At the end of the day All marine armies are individual parts kept within a certain distance from which they would be mutually supportive. That is the ONLY way to play a marine list properly, they must support each other.

[Scubasteve04]

I think that if the Rhinos have been working fine in the past, then don't worry and keep with them. It sounds like you had a bad game against an army, with lots of bad luck. Having all three Rhinos with smoke popped in one turn with your squads being pinned is painful, but it happens, best to get that out of your system before the tournament. Instead of following a knee-jerk reaction and changing to something else, take the time to sit down and consider. How did you use your Rhinos? Would it have been better to move a bit slower, at a different angle, but block LoS completely? Might it have been better to deploy them behind the Land Raiders? Grey Knights struggle against Land Raiders, so had they gone in-front and the Rhinos behind that would have ended better. Your entire list looks like it's built around supporting those Rhinos. You've got Typhoons that fall into the same armour bracket, you've got Land Raiders for escort, and combined with the Preds they pose big, menacing threats that can soak up the punishment. And you're all mech, giving your opponent's anti-infantry guns nothing to shoot at.

 

It wasn't just the one game that was an issue. Every single 2500pt practice game I have played against competitive opponents (about 8), my Rhinos have been stunned, immobilised and wrecked into oblivion sitting in my deployment zone. Every single game saw my Marines footslogging accross the field, taking anti-infantry firepower along the way.

 

Rhinos IMO are the no brainer choice for a standard game of 40k under 2000pts, for the reasons stated above. The problem I am facing against these competitive lists at 2500pts is the massive amounts of anti-transport firepower that basically melt my Rhinos on the first turn. All of the top players in my area are running netlist copypasta gunlines thats sole purpose is to spam as many strength 6-8 weapons as humanly possible. Even deploying my Rhinos behind the Land raiders, the enemy just angles shots on the sides, getting at least a stunned result, forcing my Land Raider to keep moving forward leaving the rhino exposed.

 

I tried a test game with borrowed drop pods against a Space Marine gunline. Opponent deployed in the classic gunline in his deployment zone. I dropped around a building on the left flank to block line of sight from the majority of the gunline. They took lots of fire, and a bunch of them died, but on turn 2 I was able to start multi-assaulting tanks left and right. By the time all of the Marines were dead, the Land Raiders arrived unscathed and finished them off.

 

I just don't see the point in taking a Rhino, if the sole purpose of the metagame is to destroy AV 10-12 transports. Its like using paper when you know your opponent is using scissors beforehand. Most people just use scissors as well (6 Razorback MSUs) but I am looking for the rock.

[DarkGuard]

Wait a moment. It sounds as if you place a lot of responsibility and killing expectations on your Tactical squads. Tactical squads are support only, if a Rhino gets stunned first turn pop smoke and push everything else forward. Your opponent's will probably ignore the stunned Rhino because there are more pressing and easier targets, letting your Rhino catch up. In your list, the Terminators and Land Raiders are the major killing units, the Tactical squads are not. Sticking them in Drop Pods forces them to be killing units, sticking them in Rhinos with clever use and deployment makes them support. Have you attempted your best at knocking out your opponents anti-tank? Maybe you need some more anti-tank of your own.

 

Anyway, it seems you've already made your mind up, and nothing I say will stop you from switching to Drop Pods. I just feel that you'll eventually need a major overhaul for the entire army is you go Drop Pods, so be careful.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I dropped around a building on the left flank to block line of sight from the majority of the gunline.

Consider that Drop Pod's "doors" must open once it landed, thus is not easy to block line of site. It can easily provide cover but it will rarely block line of site. Unless you and your opponents agree to keep the doors closed but this is not what the codex states.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Scubasteve04]

I dropped around a building on the left flank to block line of sight from the majority of the gunline.

Consider that Drop Pod's "doors" must open once it landed, thus is not easy to block line of site. It can easily provide cover but it will rarely block line of site. Unless you and your opponents agree to keep the doors closed but this is not what the codex states.

Just my two cents on the matter.

 

I meant partially, for cover saves (for the Tacticals against AP wounds, and the speeders, especially if the terrain is sparse)

[Scubasteve04]

Wait a moment. It sounds as if you place a lot of responsibility and killing expectations on your Tactical squads. Tactical squads are support only, if a Rhino gets stunned first turn pop smoke and push everything else forward. Your opponent's will probably ignore the stunned Rhino because there are more pressing and easier targets, letting your Rhino catch up. In your list, the Terminators and Land Raiders are the major killing units, the Tactical squads are not. Sticking them in Drop Pods forces them to be killing units, sticking them in Rhinos with clever use and deployment makes them support. Have you attempted your best at knocking out your opponents anti-tank? Maybe you need some more anti-tank of your own.

 

Anyway, it seems you've already made your mind up, and nothing I say will stop you from switching to Drop Pods. I just feel that you'll eventually need a major overhaul for the entire army is you go Drop Pods, so be careful.

 

I original took my tactical squads in a pure support role, with the primary goal of capturing objectives and staying alive, and outfitted accordingly (few upgrades, rhino, combat squad into bolstered ruins, ect) A lot of my games, against more serious opponents (who always play gunlines), my tactical marines have pulled through were my numerically inferior Terminators have failed. They multi-assault the crap out of stationary tanks, and 10 man guards units and 5 man MSU marines. My games have been won by getting in my opponents face as soon as possible, and not just with my Terminators. This has led me to use them more in a frontline role when needed, and I look to gear them accordingly.

 

I am really unimpressed by the rhino at the 2500pt level, and I cannot find any justification to take them at all. Their functionality is non-existant because they cannot surivive a single round of shooting.

[DarkGuard]

I am really unimpressed by the rhino at the 2500pt level, and I cannot find any justification to take them at all. Their functionality is non-existant because they cannot surivive a single round of shooting.

 

Rhinos can't survive a single round of shooting anyway not in 2500pts, not in 1000pts. Not while in the open waving little flags above their head. I seriously cannot understand why you're having problems with yours. You've got massive amounts of target saturation, and when everything is used correctly cover. But if you've tried everything I'll take you're word for it, hopefully the Drop Pods will serve you well :teehee:.

[Scubasteve04]

I haven't made up my mind yet though. I know all of the shortcomings of drop pods as well (used to play Salamanders with anywhere from 3-9 pods). I am going to continue testing with both and see what works better. I have an upcoming game with GK who has 6 razorback strike squads so they should be put to the test (for people who don't know what strike squads do, they have a power that makes a 12" auto-mishap bubble for every squad). I want drop pods to work, because I don't see the point in using rhinos anymore.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Honestly, it's because there are only three of them. Most gunlines will be able to put a lot of shots at three rhinos.

 

I love me some drop pods, but I don't like them with this list. I think it will marginalize your tac squads (more than they already are, of course *sigh*) because your army will arrive in waves. First some Tacs...then Lysander and company...then whatever's in the Redeemer, all while the typhoons and preds throw shots downrange. At 2.5K your army will just get thumped in waves. Too much firepower. I wouldn't give up on the Rhino just yet without a pretty massive overhaul. That said, if you think you can focus and destroy the other guy's scoring units, go to town. Annihilation is always a victory condition...but I don't see it here.

[Grey Mage]

I think that list would do fairly well with the switch to Drop Pods.

 

I just have one question....

 

Why is there a redeemer there? And wheres the rest of your troops?

[Scubasteve04]

The redeemer is for the Terminator Librarian and 5x TH/SS Terminators to go with.

 

As for troops, 30 power armor should be more then enough. Think im going to stick with Rhinos though. Although drop pods are amazing, especially against gunlines, they don't really fit with my list.

[thade]

Rhinos can't survive a single round of shooting anyway not in 2500pts, not in 1000pts.

The typical per-turn life-cycle of a Rhino is as follows:

• [0] Deploy as far forward as possible.
  [1] Move maximum distance towards objective. Pop smoke.
  [2] Still alive? Move maximum distance towards objective. Disembark if you want to rapid-fire something; otherwise sit tight. If you're empty, Tank Shock! something.
  [3] Still alive? Any reason for your guys to get out? Get them out. Tank Shock! something.
  [4] Still alive? Really? Tank Shock! something.
  [5] Still alive? Bullocks. Tank Shock! something.
  [6] You are probably a flaming wreck. If not, Tank Shock! something.
  [7] You are definitely a flaming wreck. Picture yourself Tank Shock!ing something.
  [8] Back in the case you go.
  

[thade]

Rhinos allow other shenanigans as well; for instance, I have used four Rhinos and a Vindicator to form an effective blockade, forcing my opponent to skirt around them and over some nasty terrain features (all the while taking fire from my disembarked squads). Of the five tanks, two Rhinos were Immobile, one was a Wreck, one had no more Storm Bolter, and the Vindi was immobile but still angled such that it could shoot come turn five.

 

Sure, you can do this with Land Raiders, but Rhinos are cheaper and you needn't worry about losing half of it's "fire power" when you turn it sideways.

 

Rhinos are good. Don't give up on them at any game points limit.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I don't have a lot of tactical experience, so my word won't carry as much weight. However just looking at the numbers can tell you its easy enough to blow a hole in a rhino with many armies without breaking a sweat.

 

Surviving isn't their purpose though, its just getting marines into position...even roughly. A drop pod will get you to a location straight off, removing the travel time and thus make your units have to walk, however it can't adapt to the flow of a game once dropped, a rhino can.

 

The rhino can move towards objectives and change course to suit the flow of the game or it can even head off after its primary objective is complete to contest other objectives or make itself a nuiscence or even just provide some cover. It also allows your army to move as a whole, as my army arriving in sections is what puts me off drop pods.

 

These points are fairly obvious, but how many losses have been directly caused by the death of the rhino and how many have you won in spite of their deaths? That should hold some indicator as to if a change is desperately needed...

[DarkGuard]

Rhinos can't survive a single round of shooting anyway not in 2500pts, not in 1000pts.

The typical per-turn life-cycle of a Rhino is as follows:

• [0] Deploy as far forward as possible.
  [1] Move maximum distance towards objective. Pop smoke.
  [2] Still alive? Move maximum distance towards objective. Disembark if you want to rapid-fire something; otherwise sit tight. If you're empty, Tank Shock! something.
  [3] Still alive? Any reason for your guys to get out? Get them out. Tank Shock! something.
  [4] Still alive? Really? Tank Shock! something.
  [5] Still alive? Bullocks. Tank Shock! something.
  [6] You are probably a flaming wreck. If not, Tank Shock! something.
  [7] You are definitely a flaming wreck. Picture yourself Tank Shock!ing something.
  [8] Back in the case you go.
  

 

:) that made me chuckle, thanks thade! Completely accurate as well, this should be studied in great detail by all players, old and new alike.

 

@Grim, I notice my name in your sig has got bigger and red, awesome, I like red -_-.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I thought it could use with bigging up a bit! Glad you like it, after all it is your article :)

 

I think Thade's guide seems pretty accurate given how little people seem to have faith in low AV vehicles survival rates, maybe it should be a challenge to get a rhino to last the whole game...extra victory points!

[thade]

I think Thade's guide seems pretty accurate given how little people seem to have faith in low AV vehicles survival rates, maybe it should be a challenge to get a rhino to last the whole game...extra victory points!

I think still having a working transport that late in the game can be a reward all its own. Really, I have left one or two tac squads in their Rhinos in Reserve (and even in one case, some empty Rhinos) so they come in later. Very useful in annoying Kill Point missions. Imagine your Opponent's chagrin when he realizes he can't kill all four Rhinos that just rolled on in Turn 5. :)

 

Back to the topic at hand...to the OP! Could you walk us through how you use your list in its current state? Either a battle rep or as best you can remember one...or make one up that highlights how you feel your list does poorly. In fact, do all three. :) More info we have to go on, the better we can help you.

[CaptinLoken]

It is defiantly a different feel when You don't have Rhinos and Have dropods. As suggest above Try it out first with a poweraid bottle and see what you think. I personally mix it up with just a Single Tact sqaud drop assault. I'm RavenGuard ... in which means I can scurry into cover and possibly assault further than most players think... So teasing with Droppods is useful. Generally With your stubborn rule your Marines will get first round fire off from a drop and then proceed to hold till the troops roll in. If your worried that you lose the tactical reserve aspect yoru looking for as well. I Been looking at your numbers ... Could You possible drop out a Land speeder and Plug in with some remove of other points to stick in Multimelta Dread in a Droppod?

 

You could work that 10 pt Locator beacon to help you as well. So that the Dreadnought slides in and helps pop a bad tank or... vice vera a tact units guides in the Terminators you reserved for the possible defense or forward attack you need in the moment.

 

I also want to look into your ex armor LRRs' I understand the point is to keep the Tanks steaming but the cost in this edition is higher then usual. I removed that because of my own taste to spare points for my suggestion.. keep that in mind in regard to my advice.

[DarkGuard]

I also want to look into your ex armor LRRs' I understand the point is to keep the Tanks steaming but the cost in this edition is higher then usual. I removed that because of my own taste to spare points for my suggestion.. keep that in mind in regard to my advice.

 

Land Raiders need extra armour. The reason many people don't field it widespread now is not totally about the cost, but rather the cost to original price ratio. For example, a Rhino is 35pts. A Rhino with extra armour is 50pts. You've pretty much increased the cost of a Rhino by nearly 50%. On the other hand, a Land Raider Redeemer is 240pts. A Land Raider Redeemer with extra armour is 255pts. The increase in points cost here is around 5% or so.

 

So the overall cost of the two vehicles for adding extra armour reflects if its desirable or not. On Rhinos which you probably have a few of in the armour, adding extra armour for nearly 50% of their original points cost is not too good considering it only ignored 1/6th of the vehicle damage table. But putting it on your Land Raider is vital, as often, especially in this list, you have dangerous and powerful units in them. The last thing you want is your Land Raider stunned midway across the table with fast melta closing in. Having extra armour means it can only be shaken, and that isn't a problem as most people will move the LRR 12" to begin with, meaning they effectively ignore the result. The small increase in points cost over the original price, it's totally worth it, especially as you're putting an assault unit in there.

[thade]

Land Raiders need extra armour.

I 1000% agree with this statement. This man is a genius in this regard. Take it on faith, if nothing else.

 

A lot of unexpected crap can take a LR out of commission; biggest surprise to me early in my playing was when a team of like six Meganobz charged and *Glanced* my stunned and unable to run LR to death...peeled every gun off of it, Immobilised, stacked to wrecked. I've taken EA ever since.

 

I will continue to do so even in my GK lists as *insurance*. If the Fortitude power fails to keep it shooting, it will STILL be able to escape meganobz (or whatever else). :blush: