Shrike, his squad, infiltrate and another IC

[Captain Talon]

The FAQ has cleared up that you join an IC to a unit before the game starts/deployment phase starts.

 

You take a squad of assault marines. You add a librarian to it. You add Shrike. You infiltrate.

 

Is this correct? Shrike gives the infiltrate ability to the unit he joins.

 

An IC joined to a unit is part of that unit, therefore, he would benefit from an ability given to the whole unit.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, and let me know what BBB pages to cite if so.

[Bannus]

Best answer is talk it over with your opponent beforehand as the rules can be interpreted either way.

 

My viewpoint is no - my reason:

 

Other IC's attached to a squad are never actually considered as part of the squad with respect to the Infiltrate USR (and a few other situations like close combat).

 

Therefore, the unit would lose the ability because Shrike can only confer the ability onto one other unit - not two or more.

 

On the other hand, the language is vague enough to to be interpreted as allowing other IC's to join without issue.

 

However, this is a subject for the Official Rules subforum, so I'll be shifting it over there.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree with bannus that the wording is very strange, but i disagree on the topic at hand.

shrikes infiltrate ability confers to all models in the unit.. you cant argue that it would apply to a squad but not another Ic.. as we know once joined they are all considered part of the same unit.

what if he formed a unit with another IC? the mechanic is the same as joining with a squad.

 

in my mind it either confers or it doesnt, limiting its use to a joined squad but NOT a joined IC makes no sense IMO

 

exact quote is this:

Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule

 

i understand that the infiltrate rule is marked as being lost by an Ic who joins a unit with it, but since Shrikes rule overrides this (codex over rulebook) it cannot be used as a counter argument..

normally since shrike is the only one with infiltrate he would lose it when joining a non infiltrating unit.. but his rules specifiy it confers to the models in his squad.

 

the wording of how an Ic joins a unit, pretty much suggests they are considered one new unit.. which means the infiltrate USR confers

[Purdy81]

I asked this same question, and the answer I got was yes, Shrike passed this rule onto the unit that he is attached to, included other IC's in the squad

 

heres the link

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=230991

[Captain Talon]

I posed this question elsewhere and they agree it becomes one unit, thus getting infiltrate.

 

Thanks for the replies!

[Bannus]

... as we know once joined they are all considered part of the same unit.

There are a number of situations where this is not true. Are IC's attached to a squad considered a single unit during the close combat phase?

 

Are there any others? Yes: With regards to the USR's (and probably more, but I think the point is made that "as we know once joined they are all considered part of the same unit" is not always true).

 

No. So we have to determine if they are considered all part of the same unit in this case.

 

Shrike has the Infiltrate USR. no arguement there - right?

 

So he follows all the normal rules for Infiltrate - no arguement again - right?

 

His one exception is the "models in his squad" ... that is what makes his special rule "special"- with me so far?

 

The models in his squad is the unit that he joins - following the rules in the BRB.

 

Can he join to two squads at one time? No the BRB does not allow it - with one exception: When he forms as part of unit exclusively of independent characters....but we are not talking about that here. So for the purposes of our arguement, there is no exception.

 

According to the rules in the BRB about joining IC's to a unit - that is what happens: You join one character to the unit and you can join another character to the unit - but the two IC's are only connected by the unit - they have not joined each other (this is critical and the defining point and limitation of Shrike's rule). Note that they are not actually considered to be part of (or "in") the squad (a requirement for benefiting from Shrike's rule). They are actually attached to it instead.

 

So back to Shrike's one exception to the standard USR: "models in his squad" refers to the squad he has joined. If he joins to a squad, he confers the Infiltrate USR on that squad. That is all his special rule allows and nothing more.

 

Then you join another IC to the squad (note: he cannot be joined to Shrike because Shrike can only join one unit at a time) and the normal restrictions for the USR will kick in and the squad will no longer be able to infiltrate because Shrike cannot be joined to both at the same time.

[dizzy-xc]

-double post-

-deleted-

[dizzy-xc]

According to the rules in the BRB about joining IC's to a unit - that is what happens: You join one character to the unit and you can join another character to the unit - but the two IC's are only connected by the unit - they have not joined each other (this is critical and the defining point and limitation of Shrike's rule). Note that they are not actually considered to be part of (or "in") the squad (a requirement for benefiting from Shrike's rule). They are actually attached to it instead.

 

After reading your cleverly written description of 'how an IC joins a unit', bannus, I was going to agree with you, but after reading page 48 BRB, I'd have to say you are wrong because nowhere on that page does the word 'attached' appear as you distinguish above. Instead, repeatedly, the word 'join' is used over and over. The only thing I seemed to get out of reading that page twice was the IC joins the unit and is part of it in everyway. There are seperate rules for a few things like how to leave, whether you count as moving for purposes of heavy weapons fire, retinues, and how special rules are conferred (which is over-ruled by the SM Codex in the case of Shrike), etc. But no where does the BRB on page 48 offer up an idea such as what you are suggesting. An IC that join a squad is part of the squad.

 

So I'd have to say Shrike confers his special rule exactly as how its worded.

[DarkGuard]

Sorry bannus, I'm going to have to disagree with you this time. When an IC joins a unit he becomes part of the unit. So if two ICs join a unit they both become part of the unit. Shrike confers Infiltrate to all models in his squad, and so this is therefore extended to any other ICs that join him. That's at least how I understand the ruling, and the seems the most sensible way of playing it.

[Bannus]

After reading your cleverly written description of 'how an IC joins a unit', bannus, I was going to agree with you, but after reading page 48 BRB, I'd have to say you are wrong because nowhere on that page does the word 'attached' appear as you distinguish above. Instead, repeatedly, the word 'join' is used over and over

My description was never intended to be 'clever' - I also never quoted the BRB as saying 'attached'. I only used the term to distinguish that joined does not mean "in".

 

 

Sorry bannus, I'm going to have to disagree with you this time. When an IC joins a unit he becomes part of the unit. So if two ICs join a unit they both become part of the unit. Shrike confers Infiltrate to all models in his squad, and so this is therefore extended to any other ICs that join him. That's at least how I understand the ruling, and the seems the most sensible way of playing it.

Where does it say the IC's become part of the unit? If that were so, why can they be singled out in close combat?

 

Then why (in situations other than Shrike) does a unit lose Infiltrate when joined by an IC? If he is truly is "in" and "part of" the unit - why is the ability lost?

[greatcrusade08]

im sorry Bannus, i feel your reading too much into it.. rules questions shouldnt require this level of logic.

i understand your points but i think your mistaken on certain points

 

There are a number of situations where this is not true. Are IC's attached to a squad considered a single unit during the close combat phase?

Yes absolutely they are.. otherwise they wouldnt have a joint sweeping advance, wouldnt take one test for Ld and whatnot.. just becuase the cc mechanic treats them as being seperate doesnt make them two different units, they are still together.

how do you explain retinues? how do you explain the issue of shooting, moving etc if they arent treated as one unit?

 

the distinction between squad and unit is a tenous one, i cant see a definition for the word squad in the BRB, although both squad and unit are used to describe a unit..

 

we have to ask if shrike is attached to a unit of ten marines does the infiltrate confer? yes

if hes attached to another IC does it confer? yes

if hes attached to multiple ICs does it confer? yes

 

so it should be simple rulebook logic apply to a squad and IC thats attached to form a greater unit..

 

Then why (in situations other than Shrike) does a unit lose Infiltrate when joined by an IC? If he is truly is "in" and "part of" the unit - why is the ability lost?

its also true that a unit loses certain abilities when joining an Ic that doesnt have them.. the same is true for multiple ICs, if one has a USr and the other doesnt then they lose it.. despite it being clearly written they form a single unit..

the losing of certain USrs is not proof that they arent treated as a unit

[Bannus]

we have to ask if shrike is attached to a unit of ten marines does the infiltrate confer? yes

if hes attached to another IC does it confer? yes

if hes attached to multiple ICs does it confer? yes

Well, again, we have a distortion - they are not a 'unit', but a squad. This is an important distiction.

 

You are deviating from what the rule confers:

 

Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule.

Shrike can infiltrate and he can confer the ability to "models in his squad". If you look at any "squad" in the Codex (from Command Squad, Sternguard Squad to Vanguard Squad or Devastator Squad), there is no mention any independent characters. They are never considered as part of the squad.

 

The only way you can even consider IC's having the ability is if we assume that "squad" is synomimous with "unit" - but that defeats the purpose of RAW, doesn't it?

[greatcrusade08]

You are deviating from what the rule confers:

 

Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule.

Shrike can infiltrate and he can confer the ability to "models in his squad". If you look at any "squad" in the Codex (from Command Squad, Sternguard Squad to Vanguard Squad or Devastator Squad), there is no mention any independent characters. They are never considered as part of the squad.

 

The only way you can even consider IC's having the ability is if we assume that "squad" is synomimous with "unit" - but that defeats the purpose of RAW, doesn't it?

 

i dunno, i undertsnad what your saying with the difference between squad and unit, but unit is clearly defined, but the term squad has no definition..

without a clear definition of what a squad is there cannotbe a true RAW interpretation of this rule..

 

IMO the term squad must be synonimous with the term unit, otherwise the rule has no true meaning

 

the english definition of squad means team, group or unit of men.. but we know that real life definitions have no bearing on 40k ones, especially considering true squads are 12 men

 

edit: a space marine squad, Is defined as an infantry unit, just as a space marine assault squad is defined as a jump infantry unit... squad and unit must be synonimous

[Bannus]

edit: a space marine squad, Is defined as an infantry unit, just as a space marine assault squad is defined as a jump infantry unit... squad and unit must be synonimous

In which case, my interpretation still stands - as IC's are not defined as units, but as 'characters' (the section in the BRB that defines units comes later)..

 

In the section where they are described as joining/leaving a unit - they are never defined as part of the unit itself (one exception: when the unit is composed solely of IC's). Throughout the section, they are always defined as 'independent characters'.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I like Shrike, I like the Raven Guard - and I think it would be great (but rediculously imbalanced) for Shrike to be able to allow other IC's to tag along (can you imagine Shrike allowing a half-dozen IC's to tag along in an Apoc game?).

 

I actually discovered this by accident while researching the whole "which came first - the chicken or the egg" deal with Shrike allowing a non-infiltrating unit to infiltrate.

 

As long as you read the rules without actually reading into the rules - that is what it says.

[dswanick]

edit: a space marine squad, Is defined as an infantry unit, just as a space marine assault squad is defined as a jump infantry unit... squad and unit must be synonimous

In which case, my interpretation still stands - as IC's are not defined as units, but as 'characters' (the section in the BRB that defines units comes later)..

 

In the section where they are described as joining/leaving a unit - they are never defined as part of the unit itself (one exception: when the unit is composed solely of IC's). Throughout the section, they are always defined as 'independent characters'.

Interesting theory. So how would you describe this interaction if ICs are never part of a unit they are joined too?

CHARACTERS AS LEADERS

Remember that a unit's Leadership tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest ld value in the unit(see page 8 ). As characters normally have a better l d than other warriors, this means that they make very good leaders for other units in the army.

If an IC joined to a unit isn't part of the unit, then how can the unit use the ICs Leadership value for unit Leadership tests?

For that matter, explain the following exceprt in relation to the theory that ICs are not part of the unit they have joined.

• While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

[Bannus]

Yes, the BRB has all kinds of contradictions.

 

For example:

 

If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. When the attacks are resolve, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit....

 

Here we have another contradiction within the same rule no less!

 

So what standard do we apply in this case? Purposes of morale? Close combat?

 

No. We use the standard applied to the rule itself:

 

Special Rules

When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules....

 

....For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate....

While this rule does not affect Shrike or his squad - it still applies to any additional independent characters that attempt to join in the fun.

 

While Shrike may join the unit at the point of deployment, the other IC must do so at the same time. He cannot be part of the unit "before" Shrike (since there is no initiative order for deployemnt anymore, there is no alternative - it must effectively be simultaneous). Shrike cannot join both the squad and the IC at the same time - only one or the other. So the other IC must abide by the limitation listed above.

[timmytool]

like shooting in w40k things happen simultaneously pre-joining only shrike has infiltrate post joining shrike, other IC('s) and squad have infiltrate, they as a collective are now one in the blink of a eye.

 

Also I's like to point out that "squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups" are all defined by the rules as Units (BRB p3). units are grouped models their is no distinction between what models are part of it, if their grouped together then they are part of the unit.

 

so shrikes rule can be RAW expanded to "shrike (and models in his Squad{unit, squad, team, section or similarly named group}) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see BRB)"

[greatcrusade08]

Bannus makes a good RAW argument, but in terms of playability one has to go with a little common sense.. we know that ICs and joined squads are considered a single unit, even if it isnt explicitly written so.

would anybody actually argue against shrike and another IC/squad over the tabletop?

[timmytool]

Yes, the BRB has all kinds of contradictions.

 

For example:

 

If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. When the attacks are resolve, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit....

 

Here we have another contradiction within the same rule no less!

 

So what standard do we apply in this case? Purposes of morale? Close combat?

 

No. We use the standard applied to the rule itself:

 

Special Rules

When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules....

 

....For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate....

While this rule does not affect Shrike or his squad - it still applies to any additional independent characters that attempt to join in the fun.

 

While Shrike may join the unit at the point of deployment, the other IC must do so at the same time. He cannot be part of the unit "before" Shrike (since there is no initiative order for deployemnt anymore, there is no alternative - it must effectively be simultaneous). Shrike cannot join both the squad and the IC at the same time - only one or the other. So the other IC must abide by the limitation listed above.

 

see this is using a snip-it of a rule out of context...

 

The CC exception to the unit rules for IC has a clear start and finish, "Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are ONCE AGAIN treated as NORMAL MEMBERS OF THE UNIT they have joined (from determining assault results onwards)."(BRB same paragraph as bannus first quote) so while initiative order attacks are being resolved they are separate units then as the last save/fail has been resolved they are back together.

 

and as for joining simultaneously see my last post

[Isiah]

Well I think the benefit of any doubt should be given to the second attached IC as indeed being 'part' of the unit he is attached to. I say this as usually any IC is considered to be a part of his attached unit unless a specific rule tells us he isn't.

 

So yes, another attached IC in a squad with Shrike would gain his conferred special rule.

 

Cheers

I