vindicare turbo penetrator ammo

[radens]

so turbo penetrator ammo has 4d6 roll when penetrating vehicle. My question is - do the standard sniper weapon rules apply? is it simply 4d6 or sniper strenght 3 + 4d6? If the sniper rules apply, what with rending? any 6 on those four dices means additional d3?

Please clarify.

[greatcrusade08]

it is a sniper rifle so has strength 3 vs vehicles.

of the 4D6 you roll for pen, any 6's get an additonal D3 for rending..

[Legatus]

A weapon's "Armour Penetration" is usually the weapon's Strength plus a D6. Some weapons "roll additional D6s for Armour Penetration". If the rules for the Turbo Penetrator would state that the player would "roll 4D6 for Armour Penetration" then it would be a total Armour Penetration of 3+4D6. But the rules state instead that the weapon "has an Armour Penetration of 4D6", so that is the total value.

[Morollan]

it is a sniper rifle so has strength 3 vs vehicles.

of the 4D6 you roll for pen, any 6's get an additonal D3 for rending..

 

I think you should point out that that is only your interpretation of the rule, not anything official.

[greatcrusade08]

it is a sniper rifle so has strength 3 vs vehicles.

of the 4D6 you roll for pen, any 6's get an additonal D3 for rending..

 

I think you should point out that that is only your interpretation of the rule, not anything official.

 

actually no, i believe the FAQs show that rending on multiple dice is done for each.. every 6 you roll gives you an extra D3..

also the weapon is listed as a sniper rifle and the rules for those are S3 vs armour.

 

so not an interpretation :wacko:

[Morollan]

it is a sniper rifle so has strength 3 vs vehicles.

of the 4D6 you roll for pen, any 6's get an additonal D3 for rending..

 

I think you should point out that that is only your interpretation of the rule, not anything official.

 

actually no, i believe the FAQs show that rending on multiple dice is done for each.. every 6 you roll gives you an extra D3..

also the weapon is listed as a sniper rifle and the rules for those are S3 vs armour.

 

so not an interpretation :wacko:

 

Strange how there are so many threads and so much debate on various forums about this issue if it's so black and white. If the FAQ is as clear as you believe it to be, surely the question wouldn't keep cropping up?

[greatcrusade08]

Strange how there are so many threads and so much debate on various forums about this issue if it's so black and white. If the FAQ is as clear as you believe it to be, surely the question wouldn't keep cropping up?

 

tbh its not my place or problem to explain why so many people get confused.. the wording is never perfect ill admit.

 

against vehicles, sniper weapons counts as S3

from the WH FAQ (still viable btw)

how does the vindicares turbo-penetrator work in regards to rending?

Because sniper rifles are rending, when rolling for armour penetration, the vindicare gets to add a D3 to the total for each dice that comes up a 6. So, if one of the three dice is a six, the total penetration would be 6+2D6+D3+3... <snip>

Now granted it suggests the vindicare rolls 3D6 for pen, when we know they actually roll 4 (older WH dex for you).. but the FAQ does tell us that we roll an extra D3 for each roll of a 6 for rending.. and in thier own calculations they even add on the S3 of the sniper rifle (sorry legatus, your interpretation was a little beardy anyway)

 

to me the answer is pretty clear, but youll always get a few people that like to argue the ifs buts and maybes.. perhaps its becuase they like to argue, perhap they are rules lawyers.. who knws, who cares.. certainly not me

[Morollan]

Fair enough. Always a tricky one when new rules come out for a model that still has old rules in place.

[greatcrusade08]

Fair enough. Always a tricky one when new rules come out for a model that still has old rules in place.

 

its understandable to a point, i think too many people like to look for the cracks.. for alot of people precedence means nothing

[Legatus]

from the WH FAQ (still viable btw)

how does the vindicares turbo-penetrator work in regards to rending?

Because sniper rifles are rending, when rolling for armour penetration, the vindicare gets to add a D3 to the total for each dice that comes up a 6. So, if one of the three dice is a six, the total penetration would be 6+2D6+D3+3... <snip>

Now granted it suggests the vindicare rolls 3D6 for pen, when we know they actually roll 4 (older WH dex for you).. but the FAQ does tell us that we roll an extra D3 for each roll of a 6 for rending.. and in thier own calculations they even add on the S3 of the sniper rifle (sorry legatus, your interpretation was a little beardy anyway)

As far as FaQ answers go, that one could be refered to as a double failure. Not only did it incorrectly apply the "Armour Penetration" mechanic to the Witchhunter Vindicare Rifle, it also did a bad job of translating the 4th Edition Vindicate rifle rules to 5th Edition.

 

4th Edition Sniper Rifles ==> 2D6 total Armour Penetration

 

5th Edition Sniper Rifles ==> 3 + D6 total Armour Penetration (plus potential Rending bonus)

 

The rules for the Witchhunter Vindicare were written for the 4th Edition, and instead of the 2D6 of Armour Penetration had 3D6, so essentially an extra D6, similar to Melta Weapons. In 5th Edition the Sniper Penetration was changed from 2D6 to 3+D6. But instead of maybe translating the new rules for the Vindicare Rifle from 3D6 into 3 + 2D6 (swapping the old 2D6 with the new 3 + D6), the FaQ answer simply adds the +3 of the 5th Edition on top of the older 4th Edition Armour Penetration of the Vindicare Rifle.

 

And then there is the issue that the rolled D6s are not a weapon's "Armour Penetration value", it is their Strength plus the D6s. A Meltagun does not have a short range Armour Penetration Value of 2D6, it has 8 + 2D6. That would be the second mistake in the FaQ.

 

But that's what they ruled in the FaQ, so at least for Witchhunter armies that is what you should probably go with. For the newer Grey Knight rules I would suggest to stick with the written rules unless GW decides to declare via FaQ that the Grey KNight Vindicare also has different Armour Penetration rules.

[Isiah]

But that's what they ruled in the FaQ, so at least for Witchhunter armies that is what you should probably go with. For the newer Grey Knight rules I would suggest to stick with the written rules unless GW decides to declare via FaQ that the Grey KNight Vindicare also has different Armour Penetration rules.

 

Good point.

[Seahawk]

It has been answered in the BRB FAQ:

 

Q: How does Rending work if you get to roll multiple

dice for the Armour Penetration roll? (p31)

A: The player gets to add a D3 to the total for each

dice that comes up with a 6.

 

So S3 + 4D6 + potentially 4D3.

[Legatus]

That answers the issue on whether each of the D6s can produce an additional D3. It does not answer the issue on whether the Turbo-Penetrator has 4D6 armour penetration or 3+4D6 armour penetration.

[Seahawk]

*sigh*

[Brother Valerius]

That answers the issue on whether each of the D6s can produce an additional D3. It does not answer the issue on whether the Turbo-Penetrator has 4D6 armour penetration or 3+4D6 armour penetration.

 

I don't consider that to have ever really been a legitimate question. Sniper weapons are clearly 3 + the pen roll, and the turbo penetrator replaces the pen roll. I see where you're coming from, I think it's just not a very reasonable interpretation of the rules.

 

I guess in fairness, it's not a huge deal. With 4d6, rending you're going to be rolling high enough on average that you won't need the extra 3 a lot of times. Still, I don't consider this a case like falchions were (where there were two very reasonable interpretations either way), this is pretty clear to me.

[Chengar Qordath]

As far as FaQ answers go, that one could be refered to as a double failure. Not only did it incorrectly apply the "Armour Penetration" mechanic to the Witchhunter Vindicare Rifle, it also did a bad job of translating the 4th Edition Vindicate rifle rules to 5th Edition.

 

4th Edition Sniper Rifles ==> 2D6 total Armour Penetration

 

5th Edition Sniper Rifles ==> 3 + D6 total Armour Penetration (plus potential Rending bonus)

 

The rules for the Witchhunter Vindicare were written for the 4th Edition, and instead of the 2D6 of Armour Penetration had 3D6, so essentially an extra D6, similar to Melta Weapons. In 5th Edition the Sniper Penetration was changed from 2D6 to 3+D6. But instead of maybe translating the new rules for the Vindicare Rifle from 3D6 into 3 + 2D6 (swapping the old 2D6 with the new 3 + D6), the FaQ answer simply adds the +3 of the 5th Edition on top of the older 4th Edition Armour Penetration of the Vindicare Rifle.

 

And then there is the issue that the rolled D6s are not a weapon's "Armour Penetration value", it is their Strength plus the D6s. A Meltagun does not have a short range Armour Penetration Value of 2D6, it has 8 + 2D6. That would be the second mistake in the FaQ.

 

But that's what they ruled in the FaQ, so at least for Witchhunter armies that is what you should probably go with. For the newer Grey Knight rules I would suggest to stick with the written rules unless GW decides to declare via FaQ that the Grey KNight Vindicare also has different Armour Penetration rules.

Just to clear up a minor but important point, Codex: Witch Hunters is not a 4th edition codex; it's from 3rd edition.

[greatcrusade08]

Just to clear up a minor but important point, Codex: Witch Hunters is not a 4th edition codex; it's from 3rd edition.

 

the point id argue is that it doesnt mater what edition its from, its still an -up-to-date- codex for that specific army, and thus allows for precedents..

however i think valerius has it spot on.. the rules have always been strength plus pen.

it just seems too rules lawyer-ish to suddenly interpret this as being differently.. sure the wording is bad, but big shocker, the wording is always bad.

 

lets not be ass-hats just to win some stupid RAW argument, there is always a deeper issue than RAW (which in my mind supports my argument anyway).. the point is we have to find the actual rules which will be playable over the tabletop.

the precedent has always been S+Pen, lets leave it at that and avoid silly arguments

[Legatus]

I don't consider that to have ever really been a legitimate question. Sniper weapons are clearly 3 + the pen roll, and the turbo penetrator replaces the pen roll.

According to the Codex Grey Knights the turbo penetrator replaces the total Armour Penetration value, not just the roll.

 

 

Just to clear up a minor but important point, Codex: Witch Hunters is not a 4th edition codex; it's from 3rd edition.

Ah yes, thank you. In 3rd Edition the total Armour Penetration of a Sniper Rifle was a single D6, instead of the 2D6 it had in 4th Edition. In that light the translation to 3+3D6 for the Witch Hunters Turbo Penetrator makes more sense, since it had been "basic value +2D6" instead of the "basic value +D6" I was assuming.

 

For comparison:

 

"A sniper rifle only has an armour penetration of D6 against a vehicle."

(3rd Edition Rulebook, p. 59)

 

"Sniper hits (...) roll 2D6 for armour penetration against vehicles, but with no additional bonus for Strength."

(4th Edition Rulebook, p. 32)

 

"Against vehicles, sniper weapons count as Strength 3"

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 31)

 

"Against vehicles, grenades have the following armour penetration:

Defensive and assault Grenades - 4+D6

Krak grenades - 6+D6

Melta bombs - 8+2D6"

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 63)

 

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6."

(5th Edition Codex Grey Knights, p. 53)

 

 

Armour Penetration = Strength + the D6s

 

"Rolling for Armoue penetration" = the D6s

 

 

however i think valerius has it spot on.. the rules have always been strength plus pen.

The rules have allways been Strength + Pen roll = Pen.

 

Description of penetrating armour from 3rd Edition:

 

"Rolling a D6, the player scores a 4, and adds this to the lascannon's Strength of 9 for an Armour Penetration total of 13."

3rd BRB, p. 85

 

Unfortunately the 4th Edition descriptions do not use the words "armour penetration", but I found an example in the vehicle close combat section:

 

"Armour Penetration is worked out as normal (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)."

4th BRB, p. 71

 

Same for 5th Edition. The term is not used in the vehicle shooting description, but in the close combat section:

 

"Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)."

5th BRB, p. 63

 

"Against Vehicles, grenades have the following Armour Penetration:

Melta bombs - 8+2D6"

5th BRB, p. 63

 

Compare that to the current rules for the Turbo-Penetrator:

 

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6."

(5th Edition Codex Grey Knights, p. 53)

 

 

it just seems too rules lawyer-ish to suddenly interpret this as being differently.

It has been three editions now. I am not treating this "different".

 

 

lets not be ass-hats just to win some stupid RAW argument, there is always a deeper issue than RAW (which in my mind supports my argument anyway).. the point is we have to find the actual rules which will be playable over the tabletop.

the precedent has always been S+Pen, lets leave it at that and avoid silly arguments

That way lies madness. It opens up for other odd interpretations, such as the melta bombs vs. monolith issue, where it had been argued that a melta bomb has no Strength value since it has an "Armour Penetration" value of 8+2D6. That argument, too, was based on the interpretation that it was "Strength + Armour Penetration", and not "Armour Penetration = Strength + a number of D6s".

 

And it has not "allways been S+Pen", as I have tried to highlight. Indeed, in 3rd and 4th Edition Sniper Rifles specifically had only an Armour Penetration of 1D6 or 2D6 respectively, without any further Strength bonus. It was only in 5th Edition where they have been changed to 3+D6 for Armour Penetration. As such, it is not uncommon for a weapon to only roll dice for Armour Penetration, without adding any static bonus.

[greatcrusade08]

And it has not "allways been S+Pen", as I have tried to highlight. Indeed, in 3rd and 4th Edition Sniper Rifles specifically had only an Armour Penetration of 1D6 or 2D6 respectively, without any further Strength bonus. It was only in 5th Edition where they have been changed to 3+D6 for Armour Penetration. As such, it is not uncommon for a weapon to only roll dice for Armour Penetration, without adding any static bonus.

whilst im impressed by your knowledge of older editions rules, none are relevant to a 5th edition rules discussion... the WH dex may have been a 3rd edition release, but 3rd edition doesnt exist anymore, its 5th now and any rules in the WH dex have to now be used alongside the 5th rules.

all this referring to older rulessets smacks of rules lawyer interpreting for gain, it doesnt sit well with me.

we us 5th ed now, lets stick with that

 

every codex release in 5th uses the strength + armour pen as standard, that was my point, we are 3 years into 5th ed so my statement that "its always been S+Pen" sticks true aslong as we are only talking 5th ed.. which i am/was.

 

lets not be ass-hats just to win some stupid RAW argument, there is always a deeper issue than RAW (which in my mind supports my argument anyway).. the point is we have to find the actual rules which will be playable over the tabletop.

the precedent has always been S+Pen, lets leave it at that and avoid silly arguments

That way lies madness. It opens up for other odd interpretations, such as the melta bombs vs. monolith issue, where it had been argued that a melta bomb has no Strength value since it has an "Armour Penetration" value of 8+2D6. That argument, too, was based on the interpretation that it was "Strength + Armour Penetration", and not "Armour Penetration = Strength + a number of D6s".

 

its madness to use older editions as a precedent to counter a newer rules set.. as ive mentioned in 5th its done S+pen, everything is, so why should this be different?.. if your not happy with that i have matt wards email if you want it?

becuase wording here is a little 'awkward' we get small slips like this.. how hard is it to take the basic rules we know to be true and apply them when the wording gets fuzzy?

i am truelly amazed by some of the rules discussions that come up.. its like all common sense takes a leap from the eiffel tower

[Legatus]

all this referring to older rulessets smacks of rules lawyer interpreting for gain, it doesnt sit well with me.

we us 5th ed now, lets stick with that

 

every codex release in 5th uses the strength + armour pen as standard, that was my point, we are 3 years into 5th ed so my statement that "its always been S+Pen" sticks true aslong as we are only talking 5th ed.. which i am/was.

So, then these are only the quotes from 5th Edition:

 

"Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)."

5th BRB, p. 63

 

"Against Vehicles, grenades have the following Armour Penetration:

Melta bombs - 8+2D6"

5th BRB, p. 63

 

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6."

(5th Edition Codex Grey Knights, p. 53)

 

 

It is

 

Armour Penetration = Strength + the D6s

 

 

A Laser Cannon has Armour Penetration 9+D6.

 

A Meltagun within short range has Armour Penetration 8+2D6.

 

A Krak grenade has Armour Penetration 6+D6.

 

A Sniper Rifle has Armour Penetration 3+D6.

 

An Exitus Rifle with Turbo-Penetrator ammunition has Armour Penetration 4D6.

[greatcrusade08]

Armour Penetration = Strength + the D6s

ok semantics, to em its all the same which ever way you write it.. you roll the relevant D6 and add your strength..

 

so if its defiantely strength + D6's why are you discounting strength from the following

 

An Exitus Rifle with Turbo-Penetrator ammunition has Armour Penetration 4D6.

by your own admission armour pen includes the weapons strength, its clear this is a wording issue and not a RAW intent.. so why continue to argue it..

again its all about whos right by RAW, when it should be about what the rule actually is.. call it rules as intended, call it set precedent, call it RAW if you like since its definately S+Pen as of he quote you supplied at the top

[stuckinbermuda]

(For the posts just above-I think they are leaving out that the rifle has the p.31 sniper rule which gives it S3 and rending)

 

Being on the receiving end of the turbo-penetrator in two games so far is not nice, I've had a dreadnought exploded and my chappy at back of a squad killed in one shot by it, in addition to the vindicar killing something else important every turn. Almost guaranteeing pinning a squad every turn is also quite nasty. The armor penetration rolls were sick overkill :)

 

To hit roll of 2+ with a 4+ re-roll

 

AP1 weapon so 50% chance a penetrating hit will destroy the vehicle.

 

Against vehicles it has a worst case all 1's roll of 7 (S3+4)

 

Even rolling 1,1,1,6 for AP and then rolling another 1 or 2 for the 6 it comes to 13 which glances and penetrates or glances most vehicles. so the extra D3 for rolling 6's seems a bit overkill imho

 

max penetration would be S3+24 (all four 6's)+12 (all four D3 at 3) =39 which just seems a little excessive but yeah rolling four 6's and four at 5+ is not very likely...

 

with a range of 7-39 the scale is majorly slanted in favor of getting a penetrating hit every shot which is very, very likely to hit. Can anyone math hammer this? Looks to me like the average would be 16, higher than any AV.

 

imho this is excessive for less than 150 points and perhaps a reduction to a realistic range of perhaps 7-21 (S3+3D6 only, no rending) would still make it very effective at vehicle killing but not at the godly levels it is at currently (Doh, thanks Legatus below, that would actually put it at the average for just a straight 4d6 :D ). Heck, perhaps make the ammo types one time use and use generic ammo if out of special. As it is I could see this potentially destroying three Land Raiders a game...

 

The vindicar would either need to miss, very not likely, or roll less than between seven and eleven on four D6 with no 6's to not automatically glance or penetrate just about anything in the game. Be interesting to know what percentage chance there is for something to actually survive being hit by this. I rough guess it is maybe 10% survival rate.

[Legatus]

ok semantics

I personally would not put the definition of a game stat under "semantics".

 

 

to em its all the same which ever way you write it.. you roll the relevant D6 and add your strength..

 

so if its defiantely strength + D6's why are you discounting strength from the following

An Exitus Rifle with Turbo-Penetrator ammunition has Armour Penetration 4D6.

by your own admission armour pen includes the weapons strength, its clear this is a wording issue and not a RAW intent.. so why continue to argue it..

again its all about whos right by RAW, when it should be about what the rule actually is.. call it rules as intended, call it set precedent, call it RAW if you like since its definately S+Pen as of he quote you supplied at the top

What I have obviousy failed to convey is that a weapon's Armour Penetration is the entirety of the value they compare to a vehicle's Armour value.

 

While some interprete the "Armour pPenetration" to be only the dice you roll, such as in this example:

 

Laser Cannon: 9 + D6

 

Yellow = Armour Penetration

 

The weapon's "Armour Penetration" is in fact the entire value:

 

Laser Cannon: 9 + D6

 

 

Compare:

 

"Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)."

5th BRB, p. 63

 

"Against Vehicles, grenades have the following Armour Penetration:

Melta bombs - 8+2D6"

5th BRB, p. 63

 

 

Thus, if a weapon special rule states that the weapon has an Armour Penetration of 4D6, then that is all you get. That is the entirety of the value you compare to the vehicle's Armour value.

 

Laser Cannon Armour penetration: 9 + D6

 

Melta bomb Armour Penetration: 8 + 2D6

 

Turbo-penetrator Armour Penetration: 4D6

 

 

Btw, the average roll on 4D6 is 14. So I am not sure why you are certain that GW has intended for it to have the +3 added to it, which would give it an average armour penetration of 17.

 

A Laser Cannon has an average armour penetration of 12.5, while a Melta bomb has an average armour penetration of 15.

 

 

(For the posts just above-I think they are leaving out that the rifle has the sniper rule which gives it S3 and rending)

No, they are not leaving that out. The Exitus Rifle is a sniper rifle, but it has a modified Armour Penetration value:

 

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6."

(5th Edition Codex Grey Knights, p. 53)

[stuckinbermuda]

Page 31 BRB Sniper rules

Page 60 BRB Armour penetration rules

Page 53 GK codex Vindicare Assassin/Turbo-Penetrator rules.

 

Seems like when these are all read together they make a good argument for the S3 +4d6 with rending argument.

Just taking the one line in the GK codex saying "A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6." and ignoring all the other applicable rules in the BRB is a weak argument.

The assassin has to be within 36" of its target so almost all units should be able to reach out and hit him somehow or head over and assault him by midgame, his shooting should be nullified if given any attention. However if he is using stealth, in reinforced cover, getting a 2+ cover save, he will be hard to kill, even in CC with his WS8.

Common sense would suggest that only the 4d6 be applied for armor penetration when looking at the math and other game balancing mechanics.

Making one unit with the most overkill, godlike shooting ability for less than 150pts seems far fetched but the rules and 0-1 limit do back it up.

 

I dunno. :wallbash:

[Legatus]

Page 31 BRB Sniper rules

Page 60 BRB Armour penetration rules

Page 53 GK codex Vindicare Assassin/Turbo-Penetrator rules.

 

Seems like when these are all read together they make a good argument for the S3 +4d6 with rending argument.

Just taking the one line in the GK codex saying "A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6." and ignoring all the other applicable rules in the BRB is a weak argument.

Page 31 BRB Sniper rules explain that a Sniper Rifle counts as Strength 3 when determining armour penetration.

 

Page 60 BRB Armour penetration rules explain that armour penetration is determined by rolling a D6 and adding the weapon's Strength to it.

 

Page 53 GK Codex Vindicare Assassin/Turbo-Penetrator rules explain that a turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6.

 

QED