WA Blue Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 A quick question: During today's GW shop match Dago was attacked by a chaos defiler, what I want to know is a defiler classed as a daemon? In the GW shop they said no so he could not hit a strenghth 10. It never beat him by the way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 A Defiler is a daemon possessed vehicle, which use to count in the previous edition, just like Daemon Princes did. Due to the poor wording of the GK's PE (Daemons) rule, Defilers should be covered yet might not be, just like Daemon Princes in the current edition should be yet might not be. Honestly, Draigo should have gotten Str 10 vs the Defiler, but as the current system stands any Chaos Marine player that doesn't deny the ability is a player not serious about winning. It is tragic, but until GW starts proof-reading and play-testing before releasing a new codex, we will always require FAQ's to remove opinions from the game. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2788998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalbik Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 As written the defiler it’s not a daemon, just a walker. You’ll just have to wait for a Faq. But if daemon possessed vehicles sets off the GK mojo, then that could effect most CSM transports as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2789067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm Blade Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 A Defiler is a daemon possessed vehicle, which use to count in the previous edition, just like Daemon Princes did. Due to the poor wording of the GK's PE (Daemons) rule, Defilers should be covered yet might not be, just like Daemon Princes in the current edition should be yet might not be. Honestly, Draigo should have gotten Str 10 vs the Defiler, but as the current system stands any Chaos Marine player that doesn't deny the ability is a player not serious about winning. It is tragic, but until GW starts proof-reading and play-testing before releasing a new codex, we will always require FAQ's to remove opinions from the game. SJ This is a force dedicated to destroying Daemons, it stands to reason that their "chosen enenmy" would have a serious disadvantage against them doesn't it? IMHO saying that a "DAEMON possessed vehicle" or a "DAEMON prince" don't count as DAEMONS is rediculous, and is not sportsmanlike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2789080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Or they don't want their already compromised army abused even more than it already is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2789391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 So, people trying to fluffily argue (not rules) that a guy with an anti-daemonic weapon/ability, beating on a CHUNK of metal that houses the essence of a Daemon should somehow be stronger? Heh. Also, What is the definition of a Daemon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Two problems here: As Bro' Nilm says above, GW need to define daemon. The Titansword has cussed up rules and shouldn't have been so heavily defined in effecting specific units - as with many other codex rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 The GK special rules are designed to be balanced when fighting codex: daemons. It works out, because a lot of their other army strengths aren't useful vs codex: daemons (such as all their power weapons.) However, most of those things ARE useful vs chaos space marines. GK vs CSM is already a matchup well stacked towards GK thanks to their proliferation of power weapons, instant death, and anti psyker. Letting them apply their anti-daemon special rules against essential csm units would turn an already stacked matchup into a completely pointless, un-fun game. So, before you go harping on with fluff arguments, please consider the actual game rules. Fluff does not define the epitome of game balance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 LOL, why would I harp on about 'fluff arguments'? In a topic about purely about rules I couldn't care less. Don't get me wrong, I can see why they chose half the rules that they did. Doesn't mean that it's the best balance that could have been achieved. The Force Weapon/PE:D central to this ruleset is somewhat muddled and could have been handled better. Lucky for GW most people play SM armies so negating armour saves is helpful, making it easier to browse over the fact that it's not so effective against many other armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I love how people say that a daemonic unit is not a daemon because it lacks a specific rule that declares it a daemon, such as Daemon Princes and daemonically possessed units like Defilers and Possessed Marines. Our PE states "all thing daemonic and warpspawned." Are Daemon Princes daemonic? Are daemonically possessed vehicles daemonic? Are Greater and Lesser Daemons daemonic? If you answer no to any of those questions, the reasoning had better not be "there is no rule saying they are daemons" as their description does say they are daemonic in nature and should fall under our PE. Another argument I see a lot is whether or not daemon weapons or daemonhost are "daemons" per our PE. Daemon weapons aren't, because they are wargear and not a unit. Daemonhosts are, because they are daemonic. The argument that tops them all is the "fluff /= rules" concept. I always see fluff does not equal rules. Cool thought, but where does the fluff end and the rules start? In the rules section? Because last I check, each rules is written in the rules section of each book, and all units are described in the rules section of each book. Description does equal rules, as it provides a general understanding of the nature of the unit or rule in question. If a unit is described as being a Space Marine, that unit is a Space Marine for rule purposes. If a unit is described as being an Ork, that unit is an Ork for rule purposes. As such, if a unit is described as being daemonic or warpspawned, it is a Daemon for rule purposes. However, with that said, the argument will continue until one side or the other has their opinion removed as viable by an opinionated (but not necessarily thought out) ruling in a GW FAQ. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Oiad: My post was not aimed at you. It is a much more fitting response to what jeffersonian000 just posted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Thank you, I think. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Thank you, I think. SJ I meant my post, which disagrees with you on the bases of game balance > fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Oiad: My post was not aimed at you. It is a much more fitting response to what jeffersonian000 just posted. Fair enough. Not to hassle but without the quotes it just looked like direct reply to my post. In most cases it's still easy to identify when it's not a direct reply but unluckily this time it wasn't. Thanks for clearing it up anyway. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I love how people say that a daemonic unit is not a daemon because it lacks a specific rule that declares it a daemon, such as Daemon Princes and daemonically possessed units like Defilers and Possessed Marines. Our PE states "all thing daemonic and warpspawned." Are Daemon Princes daemonic? Are daemonically possessed vehicles daemonic? Are Greater and Lesser Daemons daemonic? If you answer no to any of those questions, the reasoning had better not be "there is no rule saying they are daemons" as their description does say they are daemonic in nature and should fall under our PE. This. One of our players recently turned to the Dark Side, and the Chaos Dex. The Group originally stood firm that I wouldn't get PE versus his Dameon Prince, as look, unlike the Avatar and Codex Daemons, no 'Daemon' Special rule. This lasted until I asked our Deldar Player to explain Veckt's (is it Veckt?) PE: Eldar, and how he'd ever use it, as there's no 'Eldar' special rule, and therefore it would be totally unuseable in any situation. I also asked our Bangle player how Dante would ever use his PE Orks, as there's no 'Ork' special rule. They *very* quickly then agreed that, actually, the GK would get PE versus a *Daemon* Prince, and the Lesser and Greater Summons Daemons... Possessed, we've not reached an agreement on yet, but as they're toot, it's unliekly to ever crop up! :woot: Also,What is the definition of a Daemon? What's the definiaiton of an Ork? Or an Eldar? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What's the definiaiton of an Ork? Or an Eldar? Anything from the Ork or Eldar codex? Just as daemons are from the daemon codex? This issue isn't as clear cut as you are trying to make it out to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 So Veckt would get PE on a Falcon Tank? Dante on a Trukk? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 So Veckt would get PE on a Falcon Tank? Dante on a Trukk? Preferred enemy specifically says it doesn't work against vehicles without a weapon characteristic. Would it work against something like a walker? Welcome to another highly debated rules issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Ah, nice catch, didn't remember the WS bit. ;) But yeah, War Walkers and Dreanoughts are a good example. Another would be someone having PE Tau. Would that work on Kroot Squads? Or would PE GK work on DCA? Does PE Orks cover Gretchlins (don't know the Codex, can't remember if they're seperate units in thier own right, or Orks have any non 'ork' units...) PE Space Wolves cover Fenrisian Wolves? PE Deldar cover the mass of aliens the list has (can't remember the names to type but members of the Archons Court/Beasts). The point is, there's no general *racial* special rule in 40k. The 'Daemon' Special rule isn't really a Racial special rule, but another Codex one, like ASTKNF. So you can't define/constrain the PE USR by asking for Racial special rules that just simply don't exist. Or, if GW really want a USR defined by 'race', then they need to create and give each member unit in the game their specific racial USR... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Thank you, I think. SJ I meant my post, which disagrees with you on the bases of game balance > fluff. So whats GWs definition of "fluff" and "rules"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well common sense seems to have won through here, with the new FAQ confirming what counts as a Daemon, which includes vehicles daemonically possessed and Defilers. So Drago can go to S10 against a Defiler. Case closed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2790811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well common sense seems to have won through here, with the new FAQ confirming what counts as a Daemon, which includes vehicles daemonically possessed and Defilers. So Drago can go to S10 against a Defiler. Case closed. Yep. I guess now we get to see if my prediction of this totally trivializing chaos as a competitive army is true or not. Keep an eye on the metagame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2791097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Only vs Grey Knights. Against every other army, nothing's changed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2791105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Only vs Grey Knights. Against every other army, nothing's changed. Them being at such a disadvantage changes everything. Do you bother taking CSM to a tournament when you know that whether you have a chance at winning or not depends completely on if you get matched with GK or not, rather than on your actual playing ability? No, you don't. You shelve your chaos army (if you didn't already for all the other reasons) and, if you don't have another army, you quit. By making so many chaos units count as daemons for GK's rules, GW just probably killed off what little remaining competitive chaos playerbase they had. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2791128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 The crimes against Chaos Space Marines doesn't mean the rest of 40K shouldn't be fixed along the lines of common sense. They desparately need a new Codex, I've always supported my Chaotic brethren make no mistake, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick to our principles. Besides, I'm surprised people hadn't shelved their Chaos army already. After all, just being competetive doesn't make them a worthwhile army to play. I have several mates who quit 40K because they hated the new Codex, regardless of the competetive nature of the book. Look at this way, if more people gave up on their Chaos armies sooner, maybe GW would have done an update sooner. :teehee: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231811-drago-v-defiler/#findComment-2791162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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