DC Fluff Question?

[kharn_the_betrayer]

I was reading over my codex and it said that the marine is given special armor to wear upon their induction into the Death Company. How I read the line was that this armor was revered and a relic to some extent. Is that as such, I partly ask because in the DC box is a MK VIII torso. While I know its kind of our upgrade box, and very nice as well (though I can't make it a beakie :) ). I was wondering if the armor is considered special or not and if it would be older or newer?

[Paradill]

Well I can't be certain on wether or not the DC armour is a chapter relic or not (I doubt it, but I'm no BA fluff master)

 

On the armour part though, space marine armour isn't always a 'full' suit of a certain mark, different marks get meshed together to create functioning and battle ready suits of PA. So for example, the MK.VIII torso could be a replacement for an earlier MKV torso which was too battle damaged to repair..

 

MkVIII is the most 'up to date' variation but has seen only limited distribution so far, with MkVII being the most common and MkVI being the earliest variant still in (albeit dwindling) production. Because of the constant damage PA gets put through, any drastically broken bits will be replaced by other functioning components whether they are newer or older.

 

Even when parts are replaced it is considered the same original suit, so a suit of MKII 'crusade armour' worn by a hero of the chapter during the GC might have had so many parts replaced that there is no MKII left, but it is still considered that hero's armour.

 

Hope this helps

 

Paradill

[Gv0zD]

The Codex entry says: "Each brother is arrayed in black armour, blazoned with blood-red saltires to symbolise the wounds of Sanguinius during his final battle against Horus..." As I read those lines I understood them just as the description of DC "distinctions". I don't think that DC are given special armor, as they are rarely expected to fight more than one battle, and the number of DC marines is unpredictable, so it's unlikely that the battle force would carry certain stock of DC armor for "just in case" situation. I personally am going to paint my new DC in a way that there would be red paint visible, so there would be an impression of hasty paintjob.

 

So, in order to answer the question, I think that there is no difference in what type of armor you choose, as any marine can fall to Black Rage and be inducted in Death Company. I just keep the older Mk. IV Maximus armor for my Sternguard Veterans.

 

- EDIT -

Oh, there is more in the DC entry to this topic: "From the moment a Battle Brother dons the sepulchral armour of the Death Company he is a dead man walking..." But I think it's a hyperbole. Or you may think of it like this: the armor is taken, repainted, and given back, but as a "Death Company Armor" and not the one the marine used to wear :mellow:

[Tabgoi]

It used to be that there were essentially two varients of the DC armor. The first is the traditional black. The night before battle the chaplains would move among the battle brothers and those who were falling would be inducted into the death company. In this instance while the Chaplains would prepare the fallen brothers chapter serfs would prepare their armor (or other battle brothers if the situation did not allow for serfs to do such) by painting it black and attaching additional purity seals and such. All of this is done with great care in reverence to the sacrifice that is to be made. The second varient is that they wear the traditional red of the Blood Angels. In this case, at the start of particularly intense battle the entire battle force falls to the rage and charges into battle. In this case the fall to the rage would not be expected, there would be no time for preperations, and there would be no one sane enough to actually perform the rituals and painting. This is where the traditional Death Company army list comes from, meaning that a full DC army really should be red instead of black. For those interested the second varient was from an older White Dwarf (2001 to 2003) in the chapter approved section if I remember correctly (ahh, the days where you had to check 20 issues of white dwarf to find your fluff right, minimum), I have it some where.

 

Anyways, the current codex mentions brothers donning the seplucurial armor (probably spelled wrong), but that could just mean that once they have repainted and prepared the brother's existing armor that they now refer to it by a different name. I do not see anything that specifically changes the fluff from it being his armor to a new set of armor, but with this edition it seems to over rule a lot of existing fluff so if it suits your purposes for it to be a completely different set of armor than he would previously wear then go for it, there is nothing in the current codex that would conradict this theory.

 

Gvozd: I like your idea of having some red showing thru on some of your minis, kind of like to represent that not all brothers fall to the rage at the time they are expected to. It makes it seem a bit more realistic and can give you some good painting opportunities.

[Leonaides]

Tabgoi - there was no second variant of DC armour. That particular bit was simply an off-the-cuff excuse for a player to play a particular (unofficial) type of BA army, and was a rationale to excuse them from having to actually paint their models appropriately.

[Brother Nathan]

actually from a fluff point hes right on the red army of death company marines. there has been instances when the whole of a blood angels froce as fallen to the rage during a battle and they attacked. however those instances are more rare than dante walking onto the table...Used to be theat the chaplins and serfs would paint the armour of those who fell to the rage before battle, but i haent noticed if they changed this. and isnt every suit a relic anyway? well though essientiallly everything a marine uses is a relic but hey...

[kharn_the_betrayer]

Thanks for that information, I wasn't sure if I was reading the passages right and didn't know if it was a different set of armor or not, or just repainted. Its a very oddly worded passage. Also as to an entire Death Company army being red, it just sounds like someone is being lazy to me (just kidding just sounded like a truth). Thank you for the information it will be a big help as always. Now I'm debating some aesthetic choices based on another topic on here.

[Tabgoi]

Tabgoi - there was no second variant of DC armour. That particular bit was simply an off-the-cuff excuse for a player to play a particular (unofficial) type of BA army, and was a rationale to excuse them from having to actually paint their models appropriately.

 

It could be a dev was thinking along those lines, but I remember the article was making a point that if you are feilding DC as an army and not as a single unit that they should still be painted red and not black. The same dev had still painted his DC army black because he thought it looked better, but the justification was that no one would have been there to paint the armor and perform the rituals. Fluff wise it make far more sense for an army that has fallen to not have been able to paint their armor in the midst of the black rage because they would not even think of it as being important. And by the way, it was an official type of BA army back in third edition, and it is now as well (though now you need Astorath to do it, who did not exist back then). I am not sure about fourth edition as I was in the army moving from place to place a lot then. It was not in the codex, but back then most army varients and fluff came from white dwarf and not the codex, seeing as how the BA codex was all of 24 pages long, most others were not much better.

 

So long story short, I have never seen someone actually play their DC list with red minis instead of black, but I have never seen another BA player in person and I have around 60 DC models that are magnetized so it really does not affect me. If I wanted to field a DC army I would pull out 5 chaplains and a 60 DC with jump packs and go, but I prefer to control my armies. I included it as an option only because back in third edition it was perfectly legal (per GW) to run a DC list all in red, because it was a logical step. If you think that was a cop out from GW cool, your beliefs are your own, but I don't get where you can say it was never an option. If you want I can look for the issue, but around 2004 to 2006 not all articles were always included in the table of contents making searching them a bit of a pain (and my brother ganked and lost about 9 of my issues from between 2002 and 2005 so I may not still have the issue, for instance I am missing my issue with the original Chapter Approved for Flesh Tearers rules but I still have the Chapter Approved books which include them).

[Tabgoi]

Thanks for that information, I wasn't sure if I was reading the passages right and didn't know if it was a different set of armor or not, or just repainted. Its a very oddly worded passage. Also as to an entire Death Company army being red, it just sounds like someone is being lazy to me (just kidding just sounded like a truth). Thank you for the information it will be a big help as always. Now I'm debating some aesthetic choices based on another topic on here.

 

Honestly, in third edition when it came out you were hurting yourself by not painting them black. At least everywhere I played DC were seen as an unstopable force that had no counter, and they had a huge psycological impact. You lost that if they were not plainly visible. Heck my one squad I always took a completely disporpotionate amount of fire back then.

[Tabgoi]

Edit. Double post, sorry.

[Leonaides]

And by the way, it was an official type of BA army back in third edition, and it is now as well (though now you need Astorath to do it, who did not exist back then).

Even Chapter Approved was not 'official'. It was optional rules that you had to get your opponents permission to use. Some tournaments allowed it. But it was not, 'Official Codex' rules. And you still cant get it now. Astorath allows you to take multiple untis of DC, whereas that set of rules just made your entire army DC, so Dev squads became DC, but still had their heavy weapons, etc...... Not the same as Astoraths 4+ falling to the Black rage instead of 6+ either... Please be careful of what you write, since people who havent read the actual article, or who dont posess Chapter Aproved book (2004, off the top of my head), will take your word as gospel and get the wrong end of the stick. They always do.

[Brother Nathan]

mmm twlling someone to be careful what they write and then getting your black rage and red thirst rules mixed up, tut tut... and i dont see how so many dont think a red death co army isnt fluffy as it represents the marines falling to the black rage on the battlefeild. when ddante eventually does go down i personally do ecpect alot of the chapter likely to just go bezerk there and then... no time for black armour just death to all who get in the way...

[Leonaides]

I could edit the previous post, but while pointing out my mistake, you prove my point. Now thats almost profound.

 

Why should lots of people go bezerk when/if Dante falls (either in battle, or to the Black Rage and being inducted into the Death Company). Its not like they particularly want to suffer from a slow (or not so slow) descent into madness and possible heresy, and even for a Blood Angel, being able to snap out of it is far from certain. Willingly alowing themselves to be overcome by it? No way. And going bezerk doenst necessarily require falling to the Red Thirst.

 

Still seeing no justification for an entire army to fall at once (failing the standard excuse of the warp/an inquisitor did it). Its not a contagion, nor is it a mass hallucination, and for an entire force to have fallen at the same time the Chaplains accompanying that force must have been incapable of doing their jobs, which means they shouldnt have been selected to be the chaplains with that force which means the High Chaplain (or whoever selected them to go must also be incompetent, etc, etc, etc......). I could go on, but we are gettgin well off track with the OP by now.

[Brother Nathan]

hardly think any marine wants to fall into it, but it does happen. and it has triggers. ba have been stated as taking places that all other commanders had given up on. they all have it within them and they all fight it. and they have fallen to it all before. look at what happened when sanguinius fell to the bloodthirster, or when he actually died, both times the entire chapter went bezerk and charged and destroyed some of the hardest forces iin the galaxy... fortunately it was only unlocking at that point where as now it fully manifests and drives the marines mad. ignore it if you want but it can happen, unfortunately marines fall quicker to the rage than the blood angels had hoped, ad its getting quickerby all accounts...

[Arkangilos]

I agree with the others Leonaides. There are historical events of when the BA battleforces did fall to the Black Rage in entirety. Also, in the DC army, there weren't devastators or anything BUT death company and DC dedicated tanks and vehicles.

 

Also, it is perfectly logical that DC can remain red, as how can you paint a brother who falls during an attack? Or one that falls 5 minutes prior to an attack? You can't. The process takes to long. You just group him with the others and let them go.

 

As for the chaplains not doing their jobs, the Chaplains can NOT prevent the black rage, no one can or it would have been prevented from the beginning. They only WATCH for it, so that they take he who fell. They preach about trying to overcome it, but they can not prevent it. Thus, if an entire company or strike force falls to the rage, it is NOT his fault. It does NOT show his incompetence.

 

+edit+

 

Also, you can't "snap" out of the black rage. And they don't choose to go into it. Have you read the codex?

 

+edit again+

 

And when I asked it, I did not ask it with a tone of hostility, though I realise it can be taken that way.

[Leonaides]

Telanicus: have you a copy of the Chapter Aproved book or the WD? You might want to check this little bit:

No vehicles except Dreadnoughts, Rhinos and Razorbacks may be taken.

 

All Dreadnoughts follow the rules given for Moriar the Damned, the Blood Angels special character (although their weapons and vehicle upgrades may vary).

 

All units add +25% to their cost (rounding up). For example, a Tactical Space Marine will cost 19 points instead of 15, an Assault Space Marine will cost 31 points, and so on.

 

Chaplains cost 75 points each but are not accompanied by any extra Death Company.

 

As all your units are Death Company, it is pointless rolling at the start of the game to see if they become Death Company again...

 

As I tried to explain, you still have units equipped as (for example) devastator marines (so they would still be eligible to carry heavy weapons, wouldnt have jump packs and wouldnt have 2 ccws).

Equally - while of course a Chaplain cannot prevent the onset of the Black Rage (and I dont believe I ever said he could by the way), it would have been dereliction of duty and obligation in the extreme (at the least) for him to have missed the impending signs of a marine falling to the Black Rage for so long that it happened so suddenly that there was no opportunity to repaint his armour and consecrate his soul to the Emperor, and thats just for one or two marines - let alone an entire company's worth. I refer you to the text about the Moripatris - where the chaplains walk amongst the men and note those who's eyes are slightly glazed, or who appear too excited, or who speak too quickly. BA chaplains simply are that good at spotting the onset of the flaw early. Why? Because it says they are - the whys and wehrefores are not at question at this point. Any that cannot bring themselves under control are taken away and their armour repainted while they're still fairly sane, and given the opportunity to die while they are still themselves, for the reasons I mentioned earlier - madness and possible heresy.

 

Next up - entire forces falling?

Lets deal with Armageddon 3 shall we? It wasnt the entire force that fell. Someone carried Tychos body back to the lines from the Breach at Tempestora - so who were they if not his battle company? i can wait for an answer there...

 

Also, and decidedly related - are we now splitting up a temporary failure to control the Red Thirst with falling to the Black Rage and induction into the DC? I hope so, since it makes my position even easier, since that also means an entire army effectively suffering from the effects of the Red thirst temporarily does not count as a DC army. Which nicely rules out Signis Prime, since once a marine becomes DC there is no 'snapping out of it'. So they cannot have actually fallen to the Black Rage then - merely exceptional furiosity (is that spelt right - looks funny) brought on by an understandable wish to stick a chainsword where the sun dont shine on a Bloodthirster that has just beaten up their primarch and/or the Red Thirst.

 

Next up: (from Brother Nathan)

ba have been stated as taking places that all other commanders had given up on

And this has what to do with entire forces falling to the Black Rage? Not a lot really... Small units of, maybe (though still rather borderline), but not entire forces. It could equally simply mean that in relative terms they are even more dedicated to victory, and the knowledge and example of the sacrifice of their primarch drives them to do things that even their brother marines would pause at attempting. So you ahve your reason, I have mine, which is just as logical. Problem being, the existance of mine means yours is not the only potential reason, which means that Blood Angels taking places that other commanders had given up on is not necessarily to do with DC at all.

 

As for Siege of Terra, I dont recall it being lifted due to the actions of the Blood Angels after Sanguinius died - there was me thinking that the Chaos forces retreated as the Daeomns dissipated after Horus died, under their own volition essentially, but in part due to the fact he was dead, they'd lost their daemon allies (and so a significant numerical force) and the imminient arrival of the DA and SW. But I may be wrong.

 

I hope you guys dont take this the wrong way and all that, and I hope i havent mortally offended, since I genuinely dont mean to, and I would like to point out that I am willing to be persuaded otherwise - BUT I would at least require a logical arguement, backed up with sources/evidence, not a mish-mash of half-arguements all muddled together and with poor/irrelevant evidence, which is what some of that appears to be. Sorry, but it does. :)

 

I'm reminded of those Librarium debates from a couple of years ago, TBH. Maybe you gents should make a new thread, arrive at a single arguement, and then drop me a PM when you want to start (I suggest this because a: We're getting seriously off topic now and b: It'll be harder for you guys to get it all sorted as a group - assuming you want to do that - because it involves multiple people who I'm guessing dont see each other frequently in RL to discuss face to face).

[Brother Nathan]

probably does need a seperate topic as im sure theres a fari amount can be said on both sides of the argument. such as when exactly is the eve of battle? if the blood angels are suddenly ambushed and out numbered a surrounded is it more likely or even rather possible that they would fall to the rage? what triggeres the rage? is it knowlede that someone who stands before them wishes to defile the empeors light? if so then would some army like the black legion not increase the likely hood for its trigger? if thats the case then id love to see what abaddons presence owuld do(didnt it used to have some special rule that affected blood angels because of horuses talons?) then again the flaw caould also be phsycic in the way that the orks are with their abilitys... one goes, not to bad, but the more go the more will go. or that if the flaw is getting worse is it because of the geanseed? if so then surely there will be continually more and more joining the ranks. also youve got 6x30=120 plus chaplins, thats more than a company. if that dosent alow you to see that a large force could fall... im sure though we could both go on for a long time on this but im more thinking it dosent havet to be a long time to cause a marine to fall just that ususally it is. of course there is elements of both to this and i actually think it would be worth discussing too.

Back to topic... did not most of us used to think that the death co should really be lacking when it came to ordamentation? beacue they were essientially resigned to the fate of charging into the worst of the battle and that they ddnt want to risk the more precious suits in the same way that we dont give the death co termy armour....?

[Arkangilos]

Only in third edition (the rules it comes from), when a BA from ANY squad becomes a death company, he loses the ability to use any heavy weapons (and I believe exchanges his wargear for differant wargear), because he HAS TO CONSTANTLY move foward (IIRC, I am away from home for another week then I will be able to double check). If it follows the same rules from the codex (only allowing a legal death company army), then that holds true, which means that your heavy weapons would be useless. It is probably a way to choose a legal force, keeping with the "you must take one HQ, so many heavy supports, so many fast attacks, etc." Other wise you wouldn't have any HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, etc.

 

And when I say entire forces falling, I don't mean companies, I mean strike forces, maybe no more than 20 men, maybe 30, tops, unless some psychic blasts destroy everything.

 

As for Signis Prime, 1) Sanguinius survived, so the psychic wound healed. 2) That was before the Black Rage had actually set in, so it was an early stage, which still had the might of Sanguinius to hold at bay. So, the whole force did not fall to either the Red Thirst (which just makes them blood crazy), or the Black Rage (or at least, not the Black Rage of today).

 

At the third war for armegeddon, his company didn't fall, just him, but lets say, in theory, that it did (though it did not), who would carry it back? The other forces not in the company.

 

However, Chaplains can only spot the flaw on the eve of battle, when they are looking. Not all (but most) brothers fall on the eve. Others fall during. Others fall long before.

 

I do agree that it is not common, and I do agree that it is very unlikely, but it is possible.

 

And all of this does relate to the topic, we are discussing whether or not PA is replaced on the DC or not. I believe it is not, it is merely repainted, when it can be. Sometimes it is not even that.

 

And this has what to do with entire forces falling to the Black Rage? Not a lot really... Small units of, maybe (though still rather borderline), but not entire forces. It could equally simply mean that in relative terms they are even more dedicated to victory, and the knowledge and example of the sacrifice of their primarch drives them to do things that even their brother marines would pause at attempting. So you ahve your reason, I have mine, which is just as logical. Problem being, the existance of mine means yours is not the only potential reason, which means that Blood Angels taking places that other commanders had given up on is not necessarily to do with DC at all.

 

As for Siege of Terra, I dont recall it being lifted due to the actions of the Blood Angels after Sanguinius died - there was me thinking that the Chaos forces retreated as the Daeomns dissipated after Horus died, under their own volition essentially, but in part due to the fact he was dead, they'd lost their daemon allies (and so a significant numerical force) and the imminient arrival of the DA and SW. But I may be wrong.

 

^ I agree to that statement completely.

[Brother Nathan]

the terra thing when sangy died the blood angels all felt the phsycic backlash and attacked. probably didnt do alot, but then when horus died the deamons vanished and the da and wolves appeared, communications stopped or interrupted etc, the traitors fled but the ba were in their midst slaying them as they fell back. least thats how i got it from collected visions. and why are the rest of those being quoted?

actually just thought, what model do we have a picture of both before and during death co... -> tycho has the answer... :)