The AV14 issue

[Telhdrat]

I've used both flamer and melta tactical squads with success and I think both have their places. It rather depends on the rest of the list, and I don't mean just whether you have melta on other platforms, but the overall playstyle of the list. One thing I've found out though, is that is almost always worth having a combi weapon of the same type. One flamer template might not do much but two will begin to hurt even MEQ, and likewise two meltashots will vastly increase your damage potential, whether the target is tank, monstrous creature, or even just a MEQ squad.

 

What I find odd is that those who defend the flamer (and I'm sure someone else mentioned this already, but I don't have the time to read the entire thread) constantly point out how melta squad have to get close to hit their target and thus gets placed in danger, even if they destroy their target. Isn't it the same situation with the flamers? You might not kill enough to stop them from hurting you in retaliation, assault or shooty.

 

And if we are not in a vacuum, isn't the situation again the same in both cases, albeit the dargets are different? If that tactical squad destroys the Land Raider, doesn't that let the rest of your army shoot at it's content, before they get to assault your squad? And likewise if your flamer squad damaged its target, but didn't wipe it out, shouldn't it be easier to finish it with shooting from other guys in your army?

 

Just some thoughts.

 

PS. @greatcrusade08

 

A double melta combat squad in a rhino is pretty much the same points as the melta torpedo (not that the melta torpedo is bad).

[greatcrusade08]

I've used both flamer and melta tactical squads with success and I think both have their places. It rather depends on the rest of the list, and I don't mean just whether you have melta on other platforms, but the overall playstyle of the list. One thing I've found out though, is that is almost always worth having a combi weapon of the same type. One flamer template might not do much but two will begin to hurt even MEQ, and likewise two meltashots will vastly increase your damage potential, whether the target is tank, monstrous creature, or even just a MEQ squad.

agreed a matching combi increases effectiveness, although given the arguments ive been hearing, perhaps we should mix and match the combis for flexibility ;)

 

What I find odd is that those who defend the flamer (and I'm sure someone else mentioned this already, but I don't have the time to read the entire thread) constantly point out how melta squad have to get close to hit their target and thus gets placed in danger, even if they destroy their target. Isn't it the same situation with the flamers? You might not kill enough to stop them from hurting you in retaliation, assault or shooty.

No its the not the same situation, the combi flamer tac squad shoots and perhaps assaults base infantry, punching at thier own weight if you will.. getting within 6" of a land raider is something vastly different

 

PS. @greatcrusade08

 

A double melta combat squad in a rhino is pretty much the same points as the melta torpedo (not that the melta torpedo is bad).

No its not becuase you cant buy just a combat squad ... the double melta squad cannot do the same job as a melta torpedo, which is much better at what it does than two single melta shots at long range

 

edit: you could buy 5 marines, instead of a combat squad, but youd be creating a sub standard melta platform with no other uses

[Telhdrat]

What I find odd is that those who defend the flamer (and I'm sure someone else mentioned this already, but I don't have the time to read the entire thread) constantly point out how melta squad have to get close to hit their target and thus gets placed in danger, even if they destroy their target. Isn't it the same situation with the flamers? You might not kill enough to stop them from hurting you in retaliation, assault or shooty.

No its the not the same situation, the combi flamer tac squad shoots and perhaps assaults base infantry, punching at thier own weight if you will.. getting within 6" of a land raider is something vastly different

 

I didn't say it's the same, just that in both cases you need to expose your squad close to the enemy. But just as the Assault Terminators or whatever else was in the land raider might still ruin your day (it's not certain, they take a pinning test, there might be difficult terrain, you can place your rhino between the LR and your tac squad, heck you might just fire it from the rhino) if you are successful, so could that ork nob with the powerfist even after you killed lots of them first. And seriously even if I lose the five men after they've blown up the landraider it's not really a big issue unless it was the last scoring unit I had. Not that the same doesn't apply to killing a large squad of orks. But as I said, I have nothing agaisnt the flamer squad, quite the contrary in fact, but the melta squad does have its place in some lists as well.

 

PS. @greatcrusade08

 

A double melta combat squad in a rhino is pretty much the same points as the melta torpedo (not that the melta torpedo is bad).

No its not becuase you cant buy just a combat squad ... the double melta squad cannot do the same job as a melta torpedo, which is much better at what it does than two single melta shots at long range

 

edit: you could buy 5 marines, instead of a combat squad, but youd be creating a sub standard melta platform with no other uses

 

So, the other half of the squad I bought isn't doing anything then? And I didn't think we were comparing their ability to alphastrike (which can be somewhat easily protected against, I know I've played with pods countless times) because obviously the tactical squad will lose that fight.

 

Anyway I'm not saying that the melta tactical squad is better, but I think it's wrong to dismiss it as worse either. And as many on both sides of the debate have already pointed out, the rest of your list affects the decision a lot. I've yet to try plasma gun so I can't really say much on that, but it most likely has it places too.

[Captain Idaho]

I am saying melta is best sourced from other platforms and is less effective when sourced on troops. [/b]

 

Actually this is my biggest problem with melta. I find dedicated Melta platforms are a liability in Kill Points missions and just get shot as a priority before doing anything. Even my Typhoons and Rhinos are targetted after fast melta platforms!

 

Which is why I use different weapons which are harder to knock out for my anti-tank purposes. Only a mad man leaves home with NO melta, so in the abscence of dedicated Melta platforms I don't mind putting a couple of melta weapons in a Tactical squad. I don't reckon you lose that much performance, provided you aren't using said Tactical squad in a manner which means it MUST advance towards the target. Melta in a Tactical squad is essentially a weapon of opportunity rather than a doctrinal asset.

[greatcrusade08]

Which is why I use different weapons which are harder to knock out for my anti-tank purposes. Only a mad man leaves home with NO melta, so in the abscence of dedicated Melta platforms I don't mind putting a couple of melta weapons in a Tactical squad. I don't reckon you lose that much performance, provided you aren't using said Tactical squad in a manner which means it MUST advance towards the target. Melta in a Tactical squad is essentially a weapon of opportunity rather than a doctrinal asset.

 

i can understand and agree with this opinion, aslong as your not allowing the upgrade to effect the squads use then i can understand taking melta in a tac squad.. i really can.

however it doesnt change my original point that the flamer is a better otpion for a tac squad (generally speaking) than a melta.. infact IMO plasma beats them both

[Brother Valerius]

Only a mad man leaves home with NO melta

 

I'm apparently mad. Who knew? :P

[Captain Idaho]

Only a mad man leaves home with NO melta

 

I'm apparently mad. Who knew? :P

 

Many 40K fans are apparently...

 

infact IMO plasma beats them both

 

Tru-dat.

[DarkGuard]

I am saying melta is best sourced from other platforms and is less effective when sourced on troops. [/b]

 

Actually this is my biggest problem with melta. I find dedicated Melta platforms are a liability in Kill Points missions and just get shot as a priority before doing anything. Even my Typhoons and Rhinos are targetted after fast melta platforms!

 

Which is why I use different weapons which are harder to knock out for my anti-tank purposes. Only a mad man leaves home with NO melta, so in the abscence of dedicated Melta platforms I don't mind putting a couple of melta weapons in a Tactical squad. I don't reckon you lose that much performance, provided you aren't using said Tactical squad in a manner which means it MUST advance towards the target. Melta in a Tactical squad is essentially a weapon of opportunity rather than a doctrinal asset.

 

This is a very valid and good point about melta platforms. In my 3rd Company list I use two MM/HF Speeders in different slots, in my Redemption Fleet lists I use a Scout Storm melta torpedo. Both of these methods forfeit two KPs in my games, and given their fragility they will do regularly. In this instance, melta on sourced in units like Tactical squads or Sternguard can be better due to them being tougher to kill.

 

On the other hand, such units are slower at getting to tanks to take them out, and are inferior in that respect. In the end it depends on what suits you best.

[Brother Tual]

Many lists dont have melta and do well. Many codex's dont even have melta options. Doesnt make for instant fail. Why?

 

If you run melta and like it then that is ok. That is more than ok.

 

Is putting melta on your troops an answer to AV14? or a back up? Either way it is an expensive way to employ this means. Melta on troops is a bit of a cop out. To me, it indicates a player not sure on how to best apply their list. They want security in knowing if plan A fails, they have plan B and C etc WITHOUT changing how they want to play the game. A strong, streamlined list indicates a player who knows how to play and adapt if needed and has backed themselves to win.

 

I mentioned range as a short coming of a melta because it pits your unit directly against the enemy and lets them respond. A flamer does the exact same however the said targets are vastly different. The desired target has increased the risk of failure and sometimes retains this increased risk even on success of your melta weaponry (MC's or transports) A flamer unit is much less likely to be put in this situation and much less likely to be exposed to this risk. Without risk, being in response range of the enemy is not an issue. MAD (mutually assured destruction) is not a game winning tactic. I choose to play a different game.

 

It was mentioned a Melta allows you to destroy a transport and assault the occupants. True. Only in one circumstance and it will be an uncommon circumstance. Secondly, most transports have rear/side hatches and can easily disembark troops outside of your assault range. Thirdly, most units in AV14 transports will want to be in assault with your troops and you just gave them a free sweeping advance closer to your other units.

 

Fragile dedicated melta is no different to Melta on troops in kill points. Two seperate selections of MM speeders is two kill points. A single selection of a rhino with a full compliment of 10 marines is two kill points. One is double the cost, half as effective and easier to neutralise. The second kill point is harder to fetch HOWEVER can be done at leisure because you have a slow and short range unit with distance to cover. You may present the argument that the enemy will close on you and thus bring your unit back into play. Correct. The cost of this is that your enemy is matching the units. Your enemy is picking the battles. You have lost the initiative and this failure has cost you 200+ points opposed to 120. If one type of dedicated melta platform is giving you troubles, try another, if it is still giving you troubles then maybe melta is not your weapon. Try lascannons etc. There are otherways around AV14.

 

A tactical squad with dual flamer can kill any transport apart from a LR and a Monolith. Assault. Assault has the added benefit of surrounding the transport and instant killing the occupants. It is achieveable with careful planning. Play better. Piss easy to do against melta troops shooting from hatches.

 

 

EDIT : This didnt come up on the reply post page - too far back

 

What I mean when I say

generalist and balanced

 

Generalist is a unit that is optioned to perform in multiple roles. Say a Tactical squad with a meltagun, combi-flamer and a plasma cannon or DEVs with all sorts of weapons. These units have means against any target however will often only be able to appy such means in limited volume and only in one phase (often because moving/assault is denied by shooting rules) If you fail in the chosen phase or with the chosen weapon system the turn for this unit is over. These units tend to have high cost and alot of idle potential and often refered to as 'jack of all trades'

 

A balanced unit is able to perform in multiple phases of the game in the same turn against an enemy. Assault Cannon Dreads and Tactical Terminators for example. They can be dedicated in target (MM dread) yet retain the ability to use each game phase (move, shoot assault). The balanced unit often has the same ability to perform as a generalist in multiple roles because of their nature.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't believe meltaguns and combi-meltas in a Tactical squad is actually expensive, since you;

 

1) Have to take 2 Troops anyway.

 

2) The Tactical squad has other uses.

 

Since a Tactical squad can still destroy infantry, fire it's heavy weapon and take objectives, if it doesn't fire at AV14 or other heavy armour but does other things (even just area denial) then that's not wasted points.

 

I also don't see approaching 40k list building, particularly Space Marines, with an eye of being able to do change your game plan if need be, a cop out. Having a force able to change it's approach because your plan A isn't working, or because you have come up against an opponent who has countered your list some how, is a valid way to play 40K in my opinion.

 

However, I too agree with what you say about using other weapons to kill AV14. My own lists are getting sucess at killing heavy armour (killed 4 Battle Wagons in 3 turns, though this included assaulting 1 of them.

 

The age of melta dominance has thankfully moved on, with a greater balance in lists now.

[greatcrusade08]

im not ss ardently aginst melta as tual, but i have to agree with his premise that melta really doesnt belong in most tac squads (i would never remove somone presonal choice or preference, but this is a frank discussion)

 

I don't believe meltaguns and combi-meltas in a Tactical squad is actually expensive, since you;

 

1) Have to take 2 Troops anyway.

 

2) The Tactical squad has other uses.

 

Since a Tactical squad can still destroy infantry, fire it's heavy weapon and take objectives, if it doesn't fire at AV14 or other heavy armour but does other things (even just area denial) then that's not wasted points.

 

when i look to use tacticals i always remember how idaho uses them, thats not me kissing his butt, but he uses tacs how i think they should be used.. ive seen him use them and i think he does it well..

however i disagree to some extent on the above

1: this argument comes up alot, and i dont like it.. simply saying i have to build two squads madatory so it doesnt matter how much i spend doesnt make for a compelling argument, 2 five man scout squads is cheaper than a basic naked tac sqad and gives you the madatory elements...

i realise thats somewhat simplistic and maybe a little argumentative to the point of abusrdity, but spending more and more points on your basic elements means you lose points elsewhere.. why spend ten points given a meltagun to a couple of tac squads, when those same ten points can upgrade a HB to a MM on a speeder or attack bike, or add on to a Lr or something?

having a meltagun does give you a 'ok' back up against vehicles, but usually means you give them a power fist becuase your expecting them to get up close and personal, usually means your giving them a rhino too.. one upgrade leads to another leads to another in order to get the most from its use. (ill come bak to this)

 

2: the second point is correct, but it other uses, of scoring and anti-infantry arent really 'helped' by taking a meltagun, i suppose one could make the argument that it doesnt hinder these uses, but a different choice of weapon can make them better at those things... a scoring unit on objective in cover with the reach of a plasmagun would perform better than a meltagun, a flamer would help against infantry better too

of course coming back to the last point i made, any upgrade you choose does led you to take other upgrades, a flaer for example also requires you get close, so youd need the fist and rhino too, but it is cheaper than the meltagun

 

in Idahos case, i believe the meltagun works for him over the flamer becuase his uber unit of honour guard can kill lots and lots of basic infantry, he rather have the meltagun to deal with termies, dreads and the ilk that could kill his uber unit.. which is smart, however i still maintain the plasmagun would be better than the meltagun in this situation.

also if things go south and he loses that uber unit early, his anti-infantry potential takes a nose dive.. so whilst his balance is good, i worry about how tenuous it is

 

Im not picking in idaho, his fearsome repuation speaks for itself.. but i disagree with putting meltas on tac squads "just incase"

 

i realise 5 points isnt much, but id rather use those 5 points on meltabombs and take the dual flamers, it gies you that 'just incase' whilst maintaining a greater level of AI

 

The age of melta dominance has thankfully moved on, with a greater balance in lists now.

agree which is a good thing, its still a deadly weapon if you can make it fit in your list.. and IMO thats the key, square peg, round hole and all that jazz.. you cant just throw meltas in willy nilly and expct to punch your way through a game.

 

in terms of anti AV14, im using chaos alot at the moment, and although i maintain tac squads shouldnt have a meltagun, dual meltas on a small squad of cult troops like PMs can be very good at poppin tanks up close... most of my PMs carry plasma though, and they ROCK!!!

 

edit: dont even get me started on the melta bunker idea, thats almost as bad as shrike with hammernators

[Captain Idaho]

You flatter me mate. And you are pleasant enough so no apologies needed...

 

Don't worry, I use plenty of Plasma weapons in my most recent list!

 

of course coming back to the last point i made, any upgrade you choose does led you to take other upgrades, a flaer for example also requires you get close, so youd need the fist and rhino too, but it is cheaper than the meltagun

 

Yes the points can escalate quite dramatically if you build Tactical Marines with the express desire to melta vehicles, but I work my Tacticals the opposite way. Instead of adding a Power Fist and Rhino to help the squad with the Melta Gun, I work it in reverse from what I want out of the Tactical squad.

 

I want them to work moving forward and supporting my attacking force with increased numbers and bolter shock. They are often getting into scrapes so I added a power fist to the mix and being a Tactical squad I needed to move forward and protect the squad so I added a Rhino as standard. I would be doing this regardless of what I add to the army. At this point, is a melta gun really adding extra cost.

 

I 100% understand though that throwing more points at an inefficient use of a unit and forcing the unit into that role is asking for trouble, but there are more than 1 ways to build and use a unit.

[greatcrusade08]

It seems we share a similar train of thought to unit building.. never let the upgrades dictate the use, let their use dictate the upgrades.

Which is the biggest reason i dislike the melta-bunkers, people fool themselves into believing its a workable tactic, when in essence all they are doing id letting the meltaguns dictate the use of the squad.

 

as it happens i have the models for a calgar/honour guard list at home, so i figured id give it a try..

something along the lines of

calgar, 4 HG with relic blade, banner in a land raider

2 x tac squad with lascannon, plasma and rhino

2 x scout melta torpedo

2 x thunderfire

snipers.

 

i suppose i could change TDA for PA calgar and use a rhino, give me more points to spend on other toys...

i think we are officially off topic now arent we?

[Captain Idaho]

I believe we are in agreement and I think Tual's points are very good ones. Using melta weapons in a Tactical squad and saying it's primary role is to blat heavy armour is... inefficient.

 

In my case, I have a single Tactical designed for hard and dirty fighting up close, 1 as fire support objective holding and a 3rd which fits between. The 1st Tactical works well with a Melta because it already is designed with a power fist and Rhino in mind, and has support up close from the 3rd Tactical squad, Typhoons, Dreads and Honour Guard. It works for me, probably because I use my Space Marine list as an Eldar list; lots of units working together to acheive a goal instead of being self sufficient. It's how I believe many of our successful brothers on this site also use their lists.

 

Of course, now we ARE moving into off topic area because now we open a debate on whether a balanced, homogenus list needs specialised units, generalised units or a little of both.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I believe we are in agreement and I think Tual's points are very good ones. Using melta weapons in a Tactical squad and saying it's primary role is to blat heavy armour is... inefficient.

 

In my case, I have a single Tactical designed for hard and dirty fighting up close, 1 as fire support objective holding and a 3rd which fits between. The 1st Tactical works well with a Melta because it already is designed with a power fist and Rhino in mind, and has support up close from the 3rd Tactical squad, Typhoons, Dreads and Honour Guard. It works for me, probably because I use my Space Marine list as an Eldar list; lots of units working together to acheive a goal instead of being self sufficient. It's how I believe many of our successful brothers on this site also use their lists.

 

Of course, now we ARE moving into off topic area because now we open a debate on whether a balanced, homogenus list needs specialised units, generalised units or a little of both.

 

So who is going to start that topic then :)

[Captain Idaho]

I suppose I will when I get some free time. :)

[Brother Immolator]

I use my Space Marine list as an Eldar list; lots of units working together to acheive a goal instead of being self sufficient. It's how I believe many of our successful brothers on this site also use their lists.

 

And thats the magnum opus of how to use space marines:Their stat lines speak this themselves.SM options are designed to hold their own,yes but that is limited and inefficient.Every unit in the codex is designed to be mediocre in several applications.When upgraded and used in CONJUNCTION with other units then you have a nicely tuned clock work mechanism that rarely fails.

 

So melta/flamers/AV 14 dont mean anything.If you have tons of anti tank and no anti infantry power you are going to be steamrolled by Orks etc.If you do the opposite hello imperial guard.An all comers list is the way to go for SMs.And for those of you who say about mettagames remember that mettagame is a diplomatic way of saying listtaylor.

 

As someone on this thread said,i want to see listtailors facing something their lists dont account for!

[Eremiel]

Every time I see threads on tactics or army list people bring up the issue of how to deal with AV14 and I'm wondering if it is really that big of an issue in most cases.

 

Sure having something to deal with the AV14 tanks are beneficial but is it absolutely necessary to focus as much on it as people seem to? In most 1500 pts games how much AV14 are you realistically going to encounter? One? And in 2000pts maybe 2?

 

So I'm wondering if when I build a list if I should even care about bringing some uber landraider can opener or just have enough firepower to crack open transports and use those points for other things

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

I play SoB (old list and new), and I can tell you, I'd rather shoot the hell out of Assault units than get charged by them. Therefore, bringing enough pewpew to open up AV14 is essential.

 

Remember, not everyone plays SM's (inasmuch as GW would like you to think so...)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I run my tactical squad (I only use one) outfitted with a missile launcher, a flamer, and a combi-melta. To me this unit is meant to truly be tactical in nature as its name suggests... killpoint games I keep it together, objective games I combat squad. The flamer is meant to hunt the scouts and pathfinders of the world, while the missile launcher is meant to provide ranged flex support depending on where I could use an extra missile shot. The combi-melta is to protect the missile from tank shock and the sergeant's leadership to help the (usually) rear missile combat squad from running too quickly.

[IdOfEntity]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm new to the site, and predominantly an Eldar player.

 

Isn't it a question of play style that's influencing your Tactical Squad armaments? The pro-melta crowd would be restricted to a blitz type of play in order to wreck the Land Raider as soon as possible. You're rushing into a fight dictated by your opponents terms. Force him to use that Transport. Detain it's payload from being put into action as long as possible to declaw that unit. Even if you don't blow it up, who cares? if you can immobilize it in turn 1 or 2 you should do a happy dance.

 

It's great if you manage to crack that Land Raider with a Tactical Squad w/Melta and stop the opponents transport. I'd give them battle honours in a campaign for managing it. But do you really want that Tactical Squad within six inches of the annoyed contents of said Land Raider? It's a fair guess that whatever is in that Land Raider is going to be close combat oriented, or similarly nasty. It's using a high risk tactic to unleash a unit that is going to destroy the Tacticals, and that's the best case scenario I can imagine. The worst part is that even though you've destroyed that glorified transport you've essentially done it's job for it. Instead of your opponent needing to get to your army you have brought it to them. You might come ahead on Kill Points, but it seems like long odds.

 

You don't need to destroy that Land Raider. It's great if you can, but don't do it at the cost of serving up scoring units for slaughter. And if you're really going overboard with meltas in your army you're making yourself ridiculously specialized in a tournament. You might play against 5 other marine codexes, but that one Mech Eldar opponent is going to eye your meltas and giggle. There's not even a guarantee another marine army is even going to bother with a Land Raider, much less two or three. Meltas won't reach smart Eldar, and they don't seem to phase Tau that much either. Flamers, Missile Launchers, and Lascannons give me the most concern as Eldar. Are Orcs going to fear Meltas? Tyranids? Chaos?

 

Don't over-prepare for a contingency that may happen.

[Hellios]

You don't need to destroy that Land Raider. It's great if you can, but don't do it at the cost of serving up scoring units for slaughter. And if you're really going overboard with meltas in your army you're making yourself ridiculously specialized in a tournament. You might play against 5 other marine codexes, but that one Mech Eldar opponent is going to eye your meltas and giggle. There's not even a guarantee another marine army is even going to bother with a Land Raider, much less two or three. Meltas won't reach smart Eldar, and they don't seem to phase Tau that much either. Flamers, Missile Launchers, and Lascannons give me the most concern as Eldar. Are Orcs going to fear Meltas? Tyranids? Chaos?

 

Don't over-prepare for a contingency that may happen.

 

I don't think tactical marines are normally peoples dedicated tank killers unless someone plays a themed list like my Space Wolf 13th company that has no vehicles... I destroy armour in combat or with Meltas... that is it... I haven't really revised that list for the new Space Wolf codex but I guess I could put long fangs in it... However I wanted to get into combat with 3 attacks from my basic marines and up to 8 power fist attacks in a round of combat from my sgts.

 

The problem is cheap dedicated meltas... You can outfit a dread for melta... and if you can get it stuck and ready for combat that is good but without a drop pod it might be a target before it gets close. Land Speeders and Attack bikes are often used as well... as you can get a few in a squad and they can get into melta range quickly. Also heavy support choices (and dreads) often carry weapons with more range such as Lascannons, Auto-cannons and Missile launchers. Tacticals then become the choice to take meltas because they can have one for a little cost and you pretty much have to have tacticals in your army anyway (Unless you want scouts.) So thats what people do.

 

Lets assume we have a 10 man squad with a rhino armed with a Missile launcher, Melta-gun and combi-Melta. If it isn't a kill points game split it in two... send the melta and sgt forward in the rhino and Melta rush (if you need to and have no better units for the role... melta scouts in a storm, land speeders, attack bikes.) You stop that Land Raider with a bit of luck and yer you might have killed that tactical squad... or if you have destroyed the transport maybe you can shoot the unit inside in your own turn. Anyway even with the loss of half a tactical squad by delaying that unit and changing the threat levels of various units on the board you may save more units in the long run as you have time to take that unit out or take out the other unit that was threatening you.

 

As you say however it is all about your list and play style... My Dark Angels list packs a lot of Lascannon fire and lacks Melta... My Space Wolves have Missiles aplenty for dealing with my foes at range but have Melta on hand for when they get up close! My Minotaurs who I use as an aggressive assault base army, pretty much rely on Melta and CC.

 

My Imperial Guard do not rely on Melta... although I have 4 Multi-Meltas in my aircav list and they have failed to destroy a single vehicle in 10 games... They have survived a number of games as well! My Eldar lists don't use Fire Dragons that often but many people would argue they are one of the best Eldar units.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Meltas are not just for killing AV14, although any other guns than it and Rail guns are pretty poor at it.

 

3.7% chance for a Marine Lascannon to take out a LR? Those odds are hopeful, at best.

 

Meltas also wreck other AV, and ignore sv2+ and insta-kill t4.

 

A glance with a melta on a Deldar Raider has the same chance of destroying it [add thereby killing flimsy Elves in the process] as a regular weapon does on a penetrate. Pretty powerful. Lets not forget the 2/3rds chance to destroy one on a penetrate.

 

MM Bunkers and meltas on TROOPS are not only for AV14 :lol:

[rusty1109]

LSS with MM

 

5 man scout squad with PF + CM

 

AV14 done!

[ninjaturtlethug]

You'll probably find that powerfist useless against a Land Raider to be honest, melta bombs are a better, cheaper option. The fist will just get eaten next turn anyway.

[rusty1109]

You're not wrong brother, the fist has only once ever taken down a raider for me. But against most other AV14 nasties with weaker rear armour it is a better bet and makes the squad a lot more flexible.

 

Forgot to make the point that this choices job in my list is basically to reach out and hurt something very badly.

 

Obliterators in cover

Rhino's, raiders or similar containing basic troops (My favourite!)

Isolated or poorly supported HQ's

Large vehicles

 

Are all perfect targets!

 

Taking MB's and the fist is too much redundancy for me lol!