Excessus Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 And spawns are not daemons? :rolleyes: Spawn fall under the "anything in the Codex: Chaos Daemons" bit, because they're in it. So yes, they count as Daemons according to this FAQ. Completelt different codex, Daemon Princes are in that one too but they mention those in the FAQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 "Obliterators are no longer even Chaos Space Marines instead they are an amalgam of Marine, Daemon and Armour, each part inseparable from the rest."3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 27 yes back then they had demonic essence and demonic armor . nothig like that in the gav dex fluff or rules. "They use arcane knowledge they have gleaned from the powers of Chaos, and sinister adepts of the Dark Mechanicus, to blur the boundaries between biological, technological and daemonic."4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 35 the same can be said about any of the cult troopers . Sonic weapons NM use are modified versions of the ones they go pre heresy . 1ksons are animated suits of armor , they are warp entities or warp ghost . plague marines are full of nurgles own diseases which offten are not just normal ones , but warp spawned ones . Every chaos space marine unless he is a fresh renegade[yes I know the dex is about them mostly] has weapons from the Forge , ergo he uses arcane and demonic gear. Even the most undivided and non dedicted marines offten walk around with a swarm warp entities swarming around them [and protecting them] . The armor of the legion veterans are warped by chaos , they flow with the power of the warp . Judging by that every csm model that is not naked would be partly demonic too. Not that it matters . Game wise we are screwed against most GK build anyway and fluff wise the FAQ seems to be made by someone who forgot that chaos got a dex after the 3.5 one . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 And spawns are not daemons? :) Spawn fall under the "anything in the Codex: Chaos Daemons" bit, because they're in it. So yes, they count as Daemons according to this FAQ. Completelt different codex, Daemon Princes are in that one too but they mention those in the FAQ... A Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Daemons is the same as a Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and if one is subject, then both are subject. Good luck arguing that otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 makes me want to turn a grey knight into a spawn and ruin their fluff.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquid Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I frequently use spawn in my Chaos Army. They are not Daemons. They are just people who've had a really bad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Oblits counting as daemons isn't surprising. Terminators embarking into Chimeras? THAT outright irks me. :) Why? It was legal in Codex Demonhunters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sure chaos Have a couple of bad match-ups now and in the past , but so do many armies , I'd argue Dark Eldar have a harder time now with the Grey Knights and alot more armies than Chaos ( and they recently recieved a brand new codex) . Of course that doesn't detract from the fact that chaos does have it rough , but the whole "the sky is falling" mentallity is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 the same can be said about any of the cult troopers . No, it cannot. You can warp and corrupt an object or a creature by infusing it with warp energy. Or you can put a daemon in it. A daemon is a conscious entity. Daemons can be exorcised or banished, in which case the object will lose it's power or the creature hosting the daemon will die (or possibly recover). If an object or creature is simply corrupted by warp energy you cannot "banish" that energy, unless you somehow created a no-warp field. ALL Chaos units are somehow modified and touched by warp energy. Only SOME Chaos units have actual daemons in it. Obliterators <-- daemons in it Plague Marines <-- no daemons in it Grey Knights do not create "no-warp" fields, they exorcise daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 "They (obliterators) use arcane knowledge they have gleaned from the powers of Chaos, and the sinister adepts of the Dark Mechanicus, to blur the boundaries between biological, technological and daemonic. Infused with this ENERGY they are hulking warriors..." Codex : Chaos Space Marines 35. It's a matter of how you see it. You see the daemonic fusion. We see the energy fusion. Chances would be, if a GK would get close enough to your Obliterator, it would die anyway. It's just that the person we "love" so much didn't take the time to read any fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 What's really odd is that Obliterators are mentioned and Spawn are not. The only conclusion from that is that Obliterators are Possessed Havoc Terminators and Spawn are just overflowing with Warp energy. And yes, if they have to specifically mention Lesser and Greater Daemons PLUS the Daemon Prince, they'd have to mention the Spawn, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 but oblits never wore terminator armor . yes the new ones are on termi bases and were the template use for them was the termi one , but they were never real terminators . Or you can put a daemon in it. A daemon is a conscious entity. Daemons can be exorcised or banished, in which case the object will lose it's power or the creature hosting the daemon will die (or possibly recover). yep . just like 1ksons can be resummoned in to their armor , bound to it[like demons] they use arcane weapons . they can be banished [both the sorc and the suits of armor guys] , back in 2ed each time when a drain force was played d6 of them were removed from the tables , they are also conscious [save for the WE most chaos followers are more or less] . If using arcane weapons and being a warp entity is what makes you a demon a 1ksons is too . Grey Knights do not create "no-warp" fields, they exorcise daemons. and ? oblits are oblits because of the obliterator virus . DG are pms because of the destroyer hive infected them . both are war based diseases . and it is in fact easier for PMs to get hands on arcane weapons , because oblits use only the weapons that fused to their bodies. there is nothing arcane in weapons used by them . A pm champion or DG vet could get his hands on arcane class weapons [with him fighting 10k years and all]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 just like 1ksons can be resummoned in to their armor , bound to it[like demons] they use arcane weapons . they can be banished [both the sorc and the suits of armor guys] , back in 2ed each time when a drain force was played d6 of them were removed from the tables , they are also conscious [save for the WE most chaos followers are more or less] . If using arcane weapons and being a warp entity is what makes you a demon a 1ksons is too . I agree that Thousand Sons could perhaps be counted as daemons too. But on the other hand their sould are not warp born entities like daemons are. Perhaps there is a difference between the soul of a real space being and a daemon? And you would have the problem that not all the members of a Thousand Sons squad are soul powered automatons. The Sorcerers leading the squad are still mortals. The Grey Knight bonus might make sense when attacking Thousand Sons Marines, but not when attacking Thousand Sons Sorcerers. But the Thousand Sons Marines and the Sorcerer leading the unit are inseparable in close combat. and ? oblits are oblits because of the obliterator virus . Which turns them into semi-daemons. DG are pms because of the destroyer hive infected them . Which doesn't turn them into semi-daemons, as far as I am aware. Or are there descriptions to that effect? As there are for Obliterators? and it is in fact easier for PMs to get hands on arcane weapons What does that have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Is there even a real negative for Obliterators being Daemons? Besides the title, the only benefit Grey Knights have is in combat (That I know of), I never thought obliterators were terribly great once they were in combat anyway. Not like there is a Sanctuary rule where it blocks LOS or anything. Yes, Oblits are now wounded on a 2+ by Space Wolf Runic Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 but oblits never wore terminator armor . yes the new ones are on termi bases and were the template use for them was the termi one , but they were never real terminators . I never said 'was', just 'are', in that they have the same AS and IS, and Power Fists. The only disadvantage they to Terminators is that they are S&P, but they have +1 Wound and a MUCH better ranged weapon selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Is there even a real negative for Obliterators being Daemons? Besides the title, the only benefit Grey Knights have is in combat (That I know of), I never thought obliterators were terribly great once they were in combat anyway. Not like there is a Sanctuary rule where it blocks LOS or anything. Yes, Oblits are now wounded on a 2+ by Space Wolf Runic Weapons. Strictly speaking, no. That is probably intended, but as the ruling is in the GK FAQ the SW players can't use it. If it were in the CSM FAQ, you would be screwed, but if it comes down to a rules argument you have firm ground to stand on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 And spawns are not daemons? B) Spawn fall under the "anything in the Codex: Chaos Daemons" bit, because they're in it. So yes, they count as Daemons according to this FAQ. Completelt different codex, Daemon Princes are in that one too but they mention those in the FAQ... A Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Daemons is the same as a Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and if one is subject, then both are subject. Good luck arguing that otherwise. So why did they even mention Daemon Princes then, are they not also in the daemon codex and by your logic automatically counted as daemons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I like how Chaos Space Marines (already the poor mans army) have had two of their strongest choices weakened (Although the Daemon Prince is no surprise) and that Grey Knights cause problems for cult troops... They can put out almost as much dakka as noise marines... with HH they can stomp on PMs in combat... with Halberds they strike before Zerkers even if the Zerkers charge. (seriously... +2I is a bit over the top... why are most of my Eldar going after the space marines... that isn't good for an army that relies on being the fastest...) Funnily enough I've found that 1ksons are actually pretty good against GKs... but not great in an all comers list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Sorry... did I miss something? Between nemesis force weapons and speedy assaults how were obliterators not already screwed? And did anyone really get their locals to agree that a Daemon Prince isnt a Daemon? The 'raider thing sucks... but again, was this not already being done in your area? Daemonicly possessed vehicles being considered non-daemonic? Im not saying its cause for celebration, but surely this cant be anything new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Ladies and gentlemen, I think we are missing the bigger issue at hand in this FAQ . . . the problem here is not what is the daemonic nature of spawn or oblits, nor even bemoaning the continued nerfing of our beloved Chaos forces; the problem is that, in an unprecedented move, fluff is being referenced to make RAI rulings . . . BY GW. Several of you have posted excerpts from the Tau and Chaos codices to back up the new FAQ, but none of them, NONE OF THEM are rules-related. Yet, apparently because of a fluffy footnote in C:Tau, there are real in game consequences in the form of the plasma syphon. Does this sort of reversal of the logic behind prior rulings and indeed, what is in the main rule book bother anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I think it's more a matter of making money that actually making the rules work. Sure the FAQ has nerfed the GK on some points. But the overall feeling, thanks to the Daemon text (manedrakes???) and the plasma text, is that the Grey Knights are the best of the best against everything. You should totally buy them if you want to be the Chuck Norris of 40K. So buy Grey Knights! spend money on them! They are awesome. Atleast, that's what I'm getting from this text. And it makes me hate them even more ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gore-Child Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 You know what...:P happens people. Not like we were top of the food chain anyway, But think about this. Our time will come and everyone can bitch about Chaos, so what should we do? complain about what we dont have or play the army we love so much, and then when we get the upgrade we can smile as we think...damn right I earned this! You know what...:huh: happens people. Not like we were top of the food chain anyway, But think about this. Our time will come and everyone can bitch about Chaos, so what should we do? complain about what we dont have or play the army we love so much, and then when we get the upgrade we can smile as we think...damn right I earned this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 And spawns are not daemons? :P Spawn fall under the "anything in the Codex: Chaos Daemons" bit, because they're in it. So yes, they count as Daemons according to this FAQ. Completelt different codex, Daemon Princes are in that one too but they mention those in the FAQ... A Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Daemons is the same as a Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and if one is subject, then both are subject. Good luck arguing that otherwise. So why did they even mention Daemon Princes then, are they not also in the daemon codex and by your logic automatically counted as daemons? Daemon Princes from the Codex: Chaos Space Marines are not functionally or fluffwise the same as Daemon Princes from Codex: Chaos Daemons, in FOC slot, rules, or stats, so by necessity they would be mentioned specifically to avoid having to have conversations like this one when CSM Player X suddenly declares that his DP from his Codex isn't the same as the one in Codex: CD so it's not bound by the rules because its nature is "different". Chaos Spawn, however, occupy the same FOC and have the same rules and the same stats in both Codices, so there would be no need to have them specifically mentioned if one Codex already covered them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Daemon Princes from the Codex: Chaos Space Marines are not functionally or fluffwise the same as Daemon Princes from Codex: Chaos Daemons, in FOC slot, rules, or stats, so by necessity they would be mentioned specifically to avoid having to have conversations like this one when CSM Player X suddenly declares that his DP from his Codex isn't the same as the one in Codex: CD so it's not bound by the rules because its nature is "different". Chaos Spawn, however, occupy the same FOC and have the same rules and the same stats in both Codices, so there would be no need to have them specifically mentioned if one Codex already covered them. One small difference. Codex: Chaos Space Marines - Spawn immediately under your control and if in base contact with enemy models, they are in combat with the spawn. codex: Daemons: if the model is in base to base with enemy models (when spawned) move it 1" away. "The spawn is not a Daemon" (c:Daemons page 73). The spawn may do nothing for the rest of the turn when it is created Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Daemon Princes from the Codex: Chaos Space Marines are not functionally or fluffwise the same as Daemon Princes from Codex: Chaos Daemons, in FOC slot, rules, or stats, so by necessity they would be mentioned specifically to avoid having to have conversations like this one when CSM Player X suddenly declares that his DP from his Codex isn't the same as the one in Codex: CD so it's not bound by the rules because its nature is "different". Chaos Spawn, however, occupy the same FOC and have the same rules and the same stats in both Codices, so there would be no need to have them specifically mentioned if one Codex already covered them. One small difference. Codex: Chaos Space Marines - Spawn immediately under your control and if in base contact with enemy models, they are in combat with the spawn. codex: Daemons: if the model is in base to base with enemy models (when spawned) move it 1" away. "The spawn is not a Daemon" (c:Daemons page 73). The spawn may do nothing for the rest of the turn when it is created And this is one of the many reasions why Chaos need a huge all in one codex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Fluff-wise it makes absolute sense. Agreed. I mean how bad is this really? Don't worry they're one of the strongest units in this codex, you can be they'll be utterly useless in the next. (Although they've become a Chaos signature piece since the Pete Haines days, haven't they?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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