Obliterators = Daemons

[Spacefrisian]

Fluff-wise it makes absolute sense.

 

 

Fluff wise it doesnt make sense heck Mandrakes are never mentioned being Daemons and now they count as such while the warp beast from the DE dex are daemons, but dont count as such (at least they are closer to a daemon).

 

Matt Effect strikes again.

[Grey Mage]

Fluff-wise it makes absolute sense.

 

 

Fluff wise it doesnt make sense heck Mandrakes are never mentioned being Daemons and now they count as such while the warp beast from the DE dex are daemons, but dont count as such (at least they are closer to a daemon).

 

Matt Effect strikes again.

Umm.... you should reread their page in the DE codex.

 

They are creatures of shadow, spawned by the illicit unions of DE and Daemons in the time before the fall who exist on the shadow of the warp, who can coalesce from shadows, and covered in pulsing runes of warp spawned power.

 

Yeah, that sounds like theyre about 90% warp.

[the jeske]

then they are cross breeds not demons [fluff wise] . rules wise it doesnt matter . Just another rule that makes a loyalist army better for free.

 

1ksons are 100% warp and they arent classed as demons.

[Lord_Caerolion]

then they are cross breeds not demons [fluff wise] . rules wise it doesnt matter . Just another rule that makes a loyalist army better for free.

 

1ksons are 100% warp and they arent classed as demons.

 

...and Possessed aren't actual daemons, fluffwise, but kinda cross-breeds, yet they count as Daemons. The Mandrakes might not actually be daemons, and it seems they draw their power from somewhere other than the Warp, but they're still otherworldly enough to be affected by the GK powers, apparently. Of course, it was a big screw-up to not count Kymerae as daemons, but whatever.

[Hellios]

then they are cross breeds not demons [fluff wise] . rules wise it doesnt matter . Just another rule that makes a loyalist army better for free.

 

1ksons are 100% warp and they arent classed as demons.

 

...and Possessed aren't actual daemons, fluffwise, but kinda cross-breeds, yet they count as Daemons. The Mandrakes might not actually be daemons, and it seems they draw their power from somewhere other than the Warp, but they're still otherworldly enough to be affected by the GK powers, apparently. Of course, it was a big screw-up to not count Kymerae as daemons, but whatever.

 

DO they put the names of Mandrakes in the big book XD

[Panda_]

then they are cross breeds not demons [fluff wise] . rules wise it doesnt matter . Just another rule that makes a loyalist army better for free.

 

1ksons are 100% warp and they arent classed as demons.

 

...and Possessed aren't actual daemons, fluffwise, but kinda cross-breeds, yet they count as Daemons. The Mandrakes might not actually be daemons, and it seems they draw their power from somewhere other than the Warp, but they're still otherworldly enough to be affected by the GK powers, apparently. Of course, it was a big screw-up to not count Kymerae as daemons, but whatever.

 

At the least, Possessed have a daemonic ability (the random one, without the codex in hand, I can't quote its name). But I checked our codex yesterday, and Oblits didn't have any 'Daemonic' thing in their stats. The easiest way to amend our codex would have been to make their gun daemonic, then quote 'daemonic' in the relevant GK codex rule.

 

Appart from this, it really looks like the last nail of our codex coffin.

That should be the last button to push our new codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

What are you talking about? Their whole fluff is that they're an amalgamation of the organic, mechanical and daemonic. If we go by your logic, Mandrakes and Daemon Princes don't have any "daemonic" things in their rules, so they shouldn't be daemons either. However, we're not going purely by what's included in their rules, but rather what their fluff is. As it stands, Obliterators are warp-infused Marines, utterly melded with the daemon-virus possessing them.

[Panda_]

What are you talking about? Their whole fluff is that they're an amalgamation of the organic, mechanical and daemonic. If we go by your logic, Mandrakes and Daemon Princes don't have any "daemonic" things in their rules, so they shouldn't be daemons either. However, we're not going purely by what's included in their rules, but rather what their fluff is. As it stands, Obliterators are warp-infused Marines, utterly melded with the daemon-virus possessing them.

In fact, I liked the fact that most units with 'Daemon' or 'Daemonic' (in rules, equipment or unit title) are considered as a Daemon. I'm saying that they should have errata the Oblit's entry (changing only the gun's name). Sadly, I don't know anything about Mandrakes; perhaps one of their equipment/special rules could be errated Daemonic too ?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Mandrakes are rumoured to be the descendants of a pleasure-cult that bred with daemons, although the Kheradruakh entry hints that they aren't actually daemons, but rather, they're something else entirely...

[caboosebe]

..., Obliterators are warp-infused Marines, utterly melded with the daemon-virus possessing them.

As are plague marines with Nurgle virusses. As are Thousands sons with warp dust

[Grey Mage]

..., Obliterators are warp-infused Marines, utterly melded with the daemon-virus possessing them.

As are plague marines with Nurgle virusses. As are Thousands sons with warp dust

So your argument against the ruling is that it should be harsher?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Just seen the FAQ, GW might as well have told any non loyalist or non marine players they are not wanted, am glad I'm still using the old codex for my Grey knights, even if I did, that plasma syphon is just unsporting, if it was not soo harsh or extreme in it's effect, or perhaps even just effected one unit (would still be unporting to use it, just not so much.) but as it is, the poor tau, this is why I don't use my grey knights with a new codex, your opponent genrally needs at least an extra 500pts just for it to be a challenge for myself or enjoyable for them, the daemonic ruling I can see why, and whilst it does make me slightly glad my Thousand Sons don't use obliterators it does make me wonder where are the weakness's of the new grey knights? or has ward taken an army that was fun, an enjoyable challenge with great background and turned it into an almost win button with fluff that makes the darkest depths of fanfiction look like pratchett..

[the jeske]

nah dude . the faq changes nothing . chaos had a hard time against most GK builds and being re-rolls to hit against oblits is not going to change here . We dont realy use shoting powers , so the psychic power doesnt realy hurt us and others [like my nids] already had to hit with their powers . So if anything the FAQ evens the play field [with maybe the exeption of jaws , that is a shoting power by the rules but has no initial targeting , which makes it hard to explain why it works or doesnt . still RP run around with chooser anyway so they hit on +2 , even if some tournament/club rules it that it does roll to hit].

 

what is strange is the why oblits are on the list . was it needed to balance the game ? nope . was is a fluff thing ? nope again because pms are under the influence of a many warp/demoninc dieasesses , while 1ksons are warp beings post the ahriman ritual , so if we went the fluff way they should have made more units out of our dex demonic with that way of thinking .

I mean even a dedicted chaos lord has many gifts from his gods[says it more then once in the fluff. and not counting the primarchs no marine gets wings as a natural upgrade ] and uses arcane/demonic weapons[i know demoninc weapon duh].

 

If anything I find this odd and funny at the same time [funny because it may lower the sells of the already not top selling chaos brand].

 

 

So your argument against the ruling is that it should be harsher?

yes . If the base for it is suppose to be fluff . Otherwise it doesnt make sense to pick just one unit [used in nearly every chaos army out there] and give it a debuff while facing an already bad match up[for chaos that is].

[Son of Rawl]

So going by that Obliterators are daemons because the fluff indicates they are...does that mean that the Cruciable of Malediction would affect every Grey Knight since they are all psykers...just throwing it out there lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, that's why they have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, representing the fact that while they're all psykers, they focus their power through one individual, which has a similar end effect to how the Farseers use runes. If there's any negative feedback, only the "rune" is destroyed, which stops the backlash hitting them all.

[Hellios]

So going by that Obliterators are daemons because the fluff indicates they are...does that mean that the Cruciable of Malediction would affect every Grey Knight since they are all psykers...just throwing it out there lol

But but they are not daemons in the fluff XD that's what makes me such a sad panda B)

[the jeske]

that is post or pre the khorn ritual they made with the sob left overs?

[Son of Rawl]

Well, that's why they have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, representing the fact that while they're all psykers, they focus their power through one individual, which has a similar end effect to how the Farseers use runes. If there's any negative feedback, only the "rune" is destroyed, which stops the backlash hitting them all.

 

The Justicar should really be retitled as Red Shirt for that

[Legatus]

Once again, there is a difference between "warp stuff" and "actual daemon involved".

 

Possessed <-- daemon in it

 

Lord that is blessed by his god with a mutation <-- no daemon in it

 

Possessed vehicle <-- daemon in it

 

Lord who has a daemon weapon <-- no deamon... in the Lord. Hitting his weapon more easily should hardly affect the GK's chances to hit the Lord

 

Berserkers that are fused with their armour <-- no daemon in it

 

Plague Marines who are infected with viruses and plagues <-- no daemon in it

 

Thousand Son whose own soul is kept bount to an empty suit of armour <-- no daemon in it

 

Obliterator, which is an amalgam of mortal, mechanic and daemon <-- daemon in it

 

 

There are a lot of things that are touched and corrupted by the warp, without having any daemon component. Being blessed by one's patron deity might warp and change one's appearance, but one is still a mortal. The Thousand Sons are still the souls of once mortal beings. Daemons are creatures that live in the warp, and it is possible through rituals to infuse mortal beings or inanimate objects with a daemon. With Thousand Sons or marked/blessed warriors that is not the case.

[Arkangilos]

Exactly.

 

I don't see why it's that big of a deal though when you keep throwing fluff out there, because fluff wise, the GK are SUPPOSED to be this powerful against daemons.

 

I mean, GK (I haven't read the new one, so I'm going off of the Daemon Hunters codex) held off an entire army of demons with only a squad or two. They have killed greater daemons, lesser daemons, and daemon princes in their scores.

 

Their fluff screams ANTI CHAOS! and did even before this latest one. So of course your army is going to be weak against them. But it will stand up against SM and IG.

 

That all being said, I see no reason why GK should not rock against that force.

 

And like it was said before, there is a differance between Oblits, thousand sons, and PM. Oblits are invused with daemons. Thousand sunds are trapped in their own armor, but it is still THEIR, very non daemonic souls, and PM are marines who have gotten very, very, very sick.

 

Its not that hard.

[the jeske]

Lord that is blessed by his god with a mutation <-- no daemon in it

wings was in the demonic gift section . the same one that made the oblits in the new FAQ demons[because of chaos armor and demonic essence].

 

 

Obliterator, which is an amalgam of mortal, mechanic and daemon

the techno virus is a warp disease . So is the nurgle rot that pms have or the destroyer hive that infected them and changed them in to pms . Also looking at the pm models it is rather hard to say where the armor stops and the marine starts[in fact living armor is one of the trade marks of the legion era marines].

 

 

. So of course your army is going to be weak against them.

why ? the desing team said that the new dex does not focus on the GK being anti chaos or anti demon , that the goal while making the dex was creating a stand alone codex. Going this way BAs should be getting re-roll to hits when someone plays BL/uses abadon [but in the fluff and on gear/rules in dexs of past] . SW should be getting re-rolls against 1ksons because of the eternal hatred etc .

 

 

Thousand sunds are trapped in their own armor, but it is still THEIR, very non daemonic souls,

they are [the non sorc] warp entities that can be summoned by ritual from the warp . they are no longer mortal , nor are their part of this world . Saying that that gear that works on other demon entities shouldnt have the same effect on 1ksons doesnt make sense . It is like saying a psycannon wouldnt work on a DE warp beast [because you know they are only created from the warp stuff using arcane knowladge and bound to host bodies , but by DE and not chaos gods].

 

and PM are marines who have gotten very, very, very sick.

techno virus is a warp disease =check

nurgles rot , the destroyer hive that changed the DG in to PM is a warp diease = check

oblits melted with their armors and weapons=check

PM melted with their armors and weapons = check

where is the difference ?

IF GK get re-rolls against oblits because of fluff , they should also get it against pms . If the base for it is only the technio virus and the arcane arment.

[Legatus]

wings was in the demonic gift section . the same one that made the oblits in the new FAQ demons[because of chaos armor and demonic essence].

A Lord with more than 50 points of daemonic gifts counted as a daemon prince and thus as a daemon in the 3.5 Codex.

 

That Obliterators are considered daemons because they had "dameonic gifts" in the previous Codex is an assumption of yours. My assumption is that they are considered daemons because their background describes them as daemonic.

 

 

the techno virus is a warp disease . So is the nurgle rot that pms have or the destroyer hive that infected them and changed them in to pms .

Apparently this techno virus turns a mortal into a daemon somehow, or fuses him with a daemon (in addition to the metal bits). At least they are described as such in the past two Codices. The nurgle rot and destroyer hive do not seem to do the same. Unless you can find descriptions to that effect.

 

 

Also looking at the pm models it is rather hard to say where the armor stops and the marine starts[in fact living armor is one of the trade marks of the legion era marines].

That is rather beside the point. Remember: "warp stuff" does not equal "daemon".

 

 

they are [the non sorc] warp entities that can be summoned by ritual from the warp . they are no longer mortal , nor are their part of this world . Saying that that gear that works on other demon entities shouldnt have the same effect on 1ksons doesnt make sense .

So you are essentially saying that every human has a daemon in him? Wouldn't the Codex Grey Knights point that out at some point? That is sort of a crucial element. And I guess the Grey Knight anti daemon stuff should work against Wraithlords and Wraithguard as well.

 

 

techno virus is a warp disease =check

nurgles rot , the destroyer hive that changed the DG in to PM is a warp diease = check

oblits melted with their armors and weapons=check

PM melted with their armors and weapons = check

where is the difference ?

With the Obliterators, there are daemons involved. I believe I mentioned something like that before.

 

"Obliterators are no longer even Chaos Space Marines instead they are an amalgam of Marine, Daemon and Armour, each part inseparable from the rest."

(3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 27)

 

"They use arcane knowledge they have gleaned from the powers of Chaos, and the sinister adepts of the Dark Mechanicus, to blur the boundaries between biological, technological and daemonic."

(4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 35)

 

The techno virus apparently not only fuses man and machine, but also daemon together. Perhaps the human body alone would not be able to handle the mechanical elements, or the constant reshaping of form.

 

 

IF GK get re-rolls against oblits because of fluff , they should also get it against pms . If the base for it is only the technio virus and the arcane arment.

I'd say the base are probably the daemons.

[Gore-Child]

Hey. Sorry but the FAQ keeps freezing on my pops crap laptop.....What is the rule against Plasma ?

[Hellios]

Their fluff screams ANTI CHAOS! and did even before this latest one. So of course your army is going to be weak against them. But it will stand up against SM and IG.

 

That all being said, I see no reason why GK should not rock against that force.

 

And like it was said before, there is a differance between Oblits, thousand sons, and PM. Oblits are invused with daemons. Thousand sunds are trapped in their own armor, but it is still THEIR, very non daemonic souls, and PM are marines who have gotten very, very, very sick.

 

That is a horrible way to design a game... woop my army wrecks X's face but gets smashed by Y because in the background trains to fight X. Oh it is nice to have rules that apply against a specific foe but in general they should be as universal as possible to maintain balance. Kinda how they hurt psykers as well as daemons now... makes their skills/war gear more applicable... However GKs are incredibly strong against certain armies and fluff shouldn't be a justification or if it is GKs should be cheaper so you have less of them... I always proposed that GKs should be stronger... having power weapons all round and maybe transports... but I think they have gone to far in some places. Dark Eldar fluff screams anti-everyone... should they get a free ticket against most armies? Ah CSM and Daemons don't auto-lose against a good GK list but they have a very very hard time.

 

Still you make the point yourself... Oblits are infused with daemons (or their energy or whatever the background isn't crystal)... So not daemons themselves.... So GKs shouldn't get the bonus. Possessed can be mortals gaining daemonic advantage or daemons using a mortal shell so that is more complicated and acceptable. Daemon Princes also can have become fully daemonic and can consist of nothing but warp energy and so calling them daemons is fair game... spawn are just mutated freaks and so not daemonic.

 

Can anyone tell me if any fluff has Oblits being Banished into the warp?

[caboosebe]

Can anyone tell me if any fluff has Oblits being Banished into the warp?

Mental picture of an oblit fighting a GK, getting the daemon that is inside him banish, all his guns fall off and there is only a skinny man standing in his underpants XD. Well, if we go with the fluff that oblits are daemon infested, that should be the case XD