Legatus Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yep, something like that, though it will probably mor ebe a case of a mass of flesh and metal convulsing on the floor, as without the daemonic properties the body cannot cope with metal parts stuck all over it, often replacing other vital organs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Exactly. I don't see why it's that big of a deal though when you keep throwing fluff out there, because fluff wise, the GK are SUPPOSED to be this powerful against daemons. I mean, GK (I haven't read the new one, so I'm going off of the Daemon Hunters codex) held off an entire army of demons with only a squad or two. They have killed greater daemons, lesser daemons, and daemon princes in their scores. Their fluff screams ANTI CHAOS! and did even before this latest one. So of course your army is going to be weak against them. But it will stand up against SM and IG. That all being said, I see no reason why GK should not rock against that force. And like it was said before, there is a differance between Oblits, thousand sons, and PM. Oblits are invused with daemons. Thousand sunds are trapped in their own armor, but it is still THEIR, very non daemonic souls, and PM are marines who have gotten very, very, very sick. Its not that hard. Ok, and to continue this trend, Tyranids will be absolutely awesome against everything other than Necrons, Marines will win against everything, Eldar auto-win againt Necrons if they have psychic weaponry, and so on. Think of all the time we'll save! Instead of actually playing tournaments, and matching two equally powerful armies against each other, we won't even have to play games! Just randomise the opponents, then see who auto-wins/auto-loses, flip a coin for players with the same armies, repeat until there's only one player left! Genius! The thing you're forgetting is that the previous Daemonhunters book, while giving benefits against Daemons, also gave benefits to them, in order to maintain a relatively balanced game. You know, how the game should be. No army should ever be an auto-win against others. Yes, each army has its own strengths and weaknesses, but those are supposed to be vague, like "good at shooting, lots of guys, bad at cc", not "makes Chaos/Daemon players cry because they chose the wrong codex to play against you". Before, Daemons got to bring dead squads back into play, representing an open warp rift, in exchange for the GK getting their bonuses. Now, the GK get far, far more bonuses than they did before, and all the Chaos/Daemon player can do is bend over and try not to get tabled. This is in no way good games design. In fact, it's the absolute opposite. In a competetive wargame, each army should be approximately equal in power. Creating armies specifically designed to devastate others ruins that balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Seems like the current trend is to turn 40k into rock, paper, scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The thing you're forgetting is that the previous Daemonhunters book, while giving benefits against Daemons, also gave benefits to them, in order to maintain a relatively balanced game. You know, how the game should be. Like how there are Daemons that get a 2+ invuln against every melee weapon in the GK army? And Daemons having the ability to ignore the ID ability from NFW? Before, Daemons got to bring dead squads back into play, representing an open warp rift, in exchange for the GK getting their bonuses. Now, the GK get far, far more bonuses than they did before... What "far, far more" GK bonuses are you talking about? (Other than Oblits being classed as Daemons... +1 bonus for GK's?) What about the loss of increased Weapon Skill? The loss of increased Strength? Losing the ability to ignore invulnerable saves? The loss of True Grit? The loss of range on Psycannons? Do we really need to create a list of all the pros and cons of the new GK book to make it clear that all of this doom and gloom is misguided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Do we really need to create a list of all the pros and cons of the new GK book to make it clear that all of this doom and gloom is misguided?Except that it isn't, in the context of our own aged book. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The thing you're forgetting is that the previous Daemonhunters book, while giving benefits against Daemons, also gave benefits to them, in order to maintain a relatively balanced game. You know, how the game should be. Like how there are Daemons that get a 2+ invuln against every melee weapon in the GK army? And Daemons having the ability to ignore the ID ability from NFW? Before, Daemons got to bring dead squads back into play, representing an open warp rift, in exchange for the GK getting their bonuses. Now, the GK get far, far more bonuses than they did before... What "far, far more" GK bonuses are you talking about? (Other than Oblits being classed as Daemons... +1 bonus for GK's?) What about the loss of increased Weapon Skill? The loss of increased Strength? Losing the ability to ignore invulnerable saves? The loss of True Grit? The loss of range on Psycannons? Do we really need to create a list of all the pros and cons of the new GK book to make it clear that all of this doom and gloom is misguided? Hi... Yes they can ignore ID but that isn't a bonus that just woprks against Grey Knights and it isn't like Grey Knights have trouble if they can't cause ID... except they have a special rule that means the daemon might die anyway... Fateweaver is gonna hate being hit by NFWs. 2+ invulnerable save... yeah if I play a mono khorne army or have tailored my list to fight a Grey knights list I might get some of that... but only on a few models... you might have something if all my blood letters could have a 2+ invulnerable save... I mean it isn't like grey knights can shoot the crap out of daemons because the daemons have a mighty 5++ or that they can mess with the daemons deep striking... or that if they are charged by blood letters they can still strike before them... I mean if they could do that then the Grey Knights might have a chance. Oh and it isn't like they get a psychic power that removes that 2++ save even if you have it... As for loss of strength... actually if you are stacking powers you can be stronger than ever... not to mention you now strike at a higher I (far more useful IMO) and have power weapons.... Loss of 1 WS? Boo hoo against most dedicated combat units WS5 wouldn't help that much because they would be WS5 or higher anyway and from what I understand GKs might have preferred enemy daemons :D. The greater amount of fire power GKs can put out more than makes up for the loss of the ability to ignore invulnerable saves... The only major loss (if we ignore broken outdated rules) for grey knights is true grit... but then grey knights would cost more points... thems the breaks. The current GK dex is far more powerful than the last Daemon hunters codex... it is actually a viable all comers army... and this is a GOOD thing... in some places I might think they have gone to far (halberds should IMO be +1... but as I say thems the breaks) but overall it is pretty good. The Daemons codex is already a bit iffy... not as terrible as some might try to make you think but it can easily be upset by a few bad dice rolls.... when it comes to deployment. The overall strength of the GK codex combined with the bonuses they get against psykers and daemons (which might cause problems for a couple of models against most armies) cause problems for every model in the daemons codex means the GK codex is unbalanced against the Daemons codex! I've seen daemons win but often the daemons have been tailored and the grey knight player inexperienced . If they combined chaos space marines and chaos daemons together... I think the balance would be restored... but for now... more broken GW stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I still wonder what they were thinking with splitting Daemons from Chaos Marines. Daemons are getting worse with every new codex that arrives it seems. Maybe Necrons will even get something like "Gauss weapons are superior against warp beings hence all units classed as Daemons are removed from play", sound funny and ridiculous but hey you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Heh, even an admin getting in on it. Alrighty then, I'll leave you all to your doom'n'gloom. :tu: Its just that this mindset is completely foreign to me. I'm very much a problem > solution kind of person, and dwelling on the negative like this is not something I'm accustomed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm very much a problem > solution kind of person And in this case, the problem is greater than the solution, as your equation states. We've spent years trying to wrangle solutions out for this Codex when every Codex released past it simply generates new problems, while the old problems remain either unsolved or what few solutions we've managed to weasel out through forces as nebulous and unreliable as Luck are negated by the aforementioned later-released Codices. This is no longer, nor has been for a long time, a case of "solve for x", it's become the Kobayashi Maru scenario and James T Kirk already graduated and took the cheat codes with him. Oh, and Jean-Luc Picard died in his crib, just so you don't get the notion that there's someone else out there to rely on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 And here is my Problem > Solution nature coming to the fore :P I'm doing some research. Tournament top 3 spots on the GW website, January to June 2010: (60 places) 18 Space Marines 13 IG 11 Orks 6 Chaos 6 Eldar 4 Nids 1 Dark Eldar 1 Daemonhunters Tournament top 3 spots on the GW website, July to December 2010: (61 places; 8 additional with no army listed) 24 Space Marines 10 IG 6 Chaos 6 Tyranids 5 Orks 4 Eldar 3 Dark Eldar 2 Tau 1 Witch Hunters Tournament top 3 spots on the GW website, January and February 2011: (last updated March 1st, 16 places) 4 Space Marines 4 Chaos 3 IG 2 Dark Eldar 1 Tau 1 Eldar 1 Daemons Space Marines 46/137 or 33.6% Imperial Guard 26/137, 19%. Chaos 16/137, 11.7% Orks 16/137, 11.7% Eldar 11/137, 8% Tyranids, 10/137, 7.3% Dark Eldar 6/137, 4.4% Tau, 3/137, 2.2% Daemonhunters 1/137, 0.7% Witch Hunters 1/137, 0.7% Daemons, 1/137, 0.7% Note that the numbers are skewed in the Space Marines' favor, as the different codices are not separated; every SM codex is lumped into that category. Not to mention that we all know most of the players are Space Marine players, giving them more chances statistically to win or place in a tourney. I would hazard a guess that the IG are the real top dog as far as these "official" tourney results go, and Chaos shares 3rd place for "winningest" codex with the greenskins. Looking elsewhere, Chaos took 3 of the top 4 spots at PAX East 2011. Gottacon 2011's top spot was taken by Daemons. At Adepticon 2011's Gladiator event (the only part of the con I can find a list of which armies were used), Chaos and Daemons took 4 of the top 8 spots. My only question after all of that would be list composition for all of these Chaos & Daemon armies. Are they all using the one magical formula I keep hearing about? Or are they all doing their own thing and still winning? Its too bad this question would take a ridiculous amount of research to find out, because I would really like to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 My only question after all of that would be list composition for all of these Chaos & Daemon armies. Are they all using the one magical formula I keep hearing about? Or are they all doing their own thing and still winning? Its too bad this question would take a ridiculous amount of research to find out, because I would really like to know.That is the real difference to me. Because if they were all following the same formula, or net-list variation if you will; then it will open an entirely new and different can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphariusomegon20 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 What's really odd is that Obliterators are mentioned and Spawn are not. The only conclusion from that is that Obliterators are Possessed Havoc Terminators and Spawn are just overflowing with Warp energy. And yes, if they have to specifically mention Lesser and Greater Daemons PLUS the Daemon Prince, they'd have to mention the Spawn, too. You mean Techmarines. Oblits are former Techmarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Speaking of Spawn, they are specifically excluded from the Daemon ruling in the updated GK FAQ; Spawn no longer count as Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Speaking of Spawn, they are specifically excluded from the Daemon ruling in the updated GK FAQ; Spawn no longer count as Daemons. They fall under "Everything in Codex: Chaos Daemons". This has been discussed earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Speaking of Spawn, they are specifically excluded from the Daemon ruling in the updated GK FAQ; Spawn no longer count as Daemons. They fall under "Everything in Codex: Chaos Daemons". This has been discussed earlier. You mean, just like the Daemon Prince? Sorry, that doesn't fly by RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 What's really odd is that Obliterators are mentioned and Spawn are not. The only conclusion from that is that Obliterators are Possessed Havoc Terminators and Spawn are just overflowing with Warp energy. And yes, if they have to specifically mention Lesser and Greater Daemons PLUS the Daemon Prince, they'd have to mention the Spawn, too. You mean Techmarines. Oblits are former Techmarines. Only in the 4th edition Chaos Codex. In the 3rd edition Codex they were just a mysterious cult that made their own weapons and armors who could "morph" weapons into existence which counted as other weapons for game purposes, and weren't actually armed with the different weapons they could use. The rules actually had a specific note on them not actually being equipped with all the weapons. Does mention them being a secluded and strange cult who never communicated with any living being outside the cult. In the 3,5 edition Codex they were originally Chaos Marines who had been exposed to a techno-virus suspected to have originated from the Iron Warriors who later absorbed weapons and other parts they came into contact with. As well as being able to spread the virus by direct touch to other living beings. No mention at all about them being a cult of their own or them all being Techmarines. Then we have the 4th edition Codex which claims they are all former Techmarines. I don't have the 4th Edition Codex on hand so I can't cross-reference anything more in regard to possible techno-virus or apparent ties to other cults. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Speaking of Spawn, they are specifically excluded from the Daemon ruling in the updated GK FAQ; Spawn no longer count as Daemons. They fall under "Everything in Codex: Chaos Daemons". This has been discussed earlier. You mean, just like the Daemon Prince? Sorry, that doesn't fly by RAW. Okay, allow me to explain this yet again: Given: The entirety of Codex: Chaos Daemons = Daemons Given: Only units different than those in Codex: Chaos Daemons are specifically listed in the FAQ to be classified as Daemons Chaos Spawn occupy the same space and are identical in both Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Chaos Space Marines The only unit that is named the same in both but doesn't occupy the same space at the same time in both is the Daemon Prince Only units different than the ones that fall under Codex: Chaos Daemons are specifically named in the FAQ Daemons Princes, as per Codex: CSMs, had to be named specifically because they are not the same as Daemon Princes from Codex: CDs Chaos Spawn, being identical in both, did not need to be specified, because the ruling for one covers the ruling for the other Conclusion: Chaos Spawn are Daemons, regardless of which Codex cited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 That's a slippery slope though, especially when GW has previously made rulings stating that identical things in the different codexes are in fact different things (storm shields, etc). Both CSM and CD have Spawn, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the exact same thing according to GW. They've given rulings the utter opposite to what you've said in other FAQ's, so we cannot assume that your interpretation is correct. As it stands, it's safer by RAW to accept that they're different things. After all, a storm shield and a storm shield can be two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 That's a slippery slope though, especially when GW has previously made rulings stating that identical things in the different codexes are in fact different things (storm shields, etc). Both CSM and CD have Spawn, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the exact same thing according to GW. They've given rulings the utter opposite to what you've said in other FAQ's, so we cannot assume that your interpretation is correct. As it stands, it's safer by RAW to accept that they're different things. After all, a storm shield and a storm shield can be two different things. A storm shield is a piece of optional equipment, not an entire unit that occupies an FOC slot. Your position would have more merit if they had ruled in the past, say, that a Daemon Prince that occupies an HS slot is identical in all ways to a Daemon Prince that occupies an HQ slot in spite of the differences in rules between the two breeds. Obviously this is not the case. Spawn, however, are identical in every way, shape, form, rule, and position on the FOC between both Codices. And by the FAQ's ruling and RAW, a Spawn is a Spawn and if it's a Daemon in one, it's a Daemon in the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Conclusion: Chaos Spawn are Daemons, regardless of which Codex cited Conclusion: overruled by GW...Thats the Matt Effect in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Speaking of Spawn, they are specifically excluded from the Daemon ruling in the updated GK FAQ; Spawn no longer count as Daemons. They fall under "Everything in Codex: Chaos Daemons". This has been discussed earlier. You mean, just like the Daemon Prince? Sorry, that doesn't fly by RAW. Okay, allow me to explain this yet again: Given: The entirety of Codex: Chaos Daemons = Daemons Given: Only units different than those in Codex: Chaos Daemons are specifically listed in the FAQ to be classified as Daemons Chaos Spawn occupy the same space and are identical in both Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Chaos Space Marines The only unit that is named the same in both but doesn't occupy the same space at the same time in both is the Daemon Prince Only units different than the ones that fall under Codex: Chaos Daemons are specifically named in the FAQ Daemons Princes, as per Codex: CSMs, had to be named specifically because they are not the same as Daemon Princes from Codex: CDs Chaos Spawn, being identical in both, did not need to be specified, because the ruling for one covers the ruling for the other Conclusion: Chaos Spawn are Daemons, regardless of which Codex cited No, that's RAIWII (Rules As I Wish It Implied). By definition, RAW is Rules As Written. A Chaos Marine Spawn is a former Marine that was mutated by the warp. A Chaos Daemon Spawn could have numerous sources, but they became a Spawn in the Warp. And because it is in a different codex is, by definition, a different unit. just as much as one ruling in one FAQ cannot be used as a literal ruling for another codex. Daemon Prince is just a name that they didn't have to include if all CD units count the same. Just because they are otherwise identical between codecies does NOT mean that they are identical when it comes to the rules, otherwise, as mentioned before, all Space Marine (no matter the codex) would all have access to the exact same rules as written, but they don't. Why? They are in different books, and the rules don't cross except when they are copy and pasted into each other. Chaos Marine Spawn are NOT Daemons, according to RAW. However, in spirit and how it SHOULD be written, I agree that they should count as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 In the latest gk faq version 1.1 it says that spawn from the chaos daemons codex are not daemons. Grey knights got worse against codex daemon armies, apart from warpquake, If they are taking an all comers list. Oblits being daemons really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things because if they are in combat they are pretty much useless anyway, regardless of if they are daemons or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Chaos Marine Spawn are NOT Daemons, according to RAW. However, in spirit and how it SHOULD be written, I agree that they should count as such. Why RAW... not daemons... Fluff... not daemons... So why should RAI = daemons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 There is no debate? Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons Codex (except for Chaos Spawn), Daemon Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the Decapitator, the Avatar. No Spawns of any kind count as a daemon. It's quite black and white... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 ^^ Who would go against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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