What if?

[skoll]

Hypothetical question lets say the inquisition and the GK have had it with the space wolves and think they crossed the line one too many times. We are declared traitor excomunicatus.

 

Would you surrender to the imperium, would you acknowledge being put down. Or would you carve yourself a bloody path against those that betrayed us. I for one if I was a wolf lord would take whatever ships were assigned to my company and turn the planetary bombardment guns straight to titan. Let those that pervert the visions of the emperor taste the wrath of the ravening jaws.

[Schertenleib]

I would continue to protect the region of space under our control as Russ and The All-Father have wished.

 

The Inquisition is neither.

[dswanick]

Two words :

1> Bring

2> it

[G. A. K.]

As stated in our codex, the inquisition has always had problems with us but when they came within firing range of Fenris, thats what we did, fired on them. At which point they decided not to mess with us, cuz it just isn't worth it. We may be different but everyone knows we're not tainted!

I'd continue to serve Russ and the All-Father as I always have. If they want a piece I'll break them in half!!! and keep serving Russ and the All-Father like nothing happened.

 

G

[Kassill]

Aye, they would just be another enemy in the way of my Great Company serving the Imperium and Russ!

[hendrik]

not even the inquisition or the grey knights could hope to declare a first founding chapter traitor excomunicatis. it would bring down the imperium in a second "heresy", especially when commanders so loved like logan, calgar or dante would be involved. all of them have so many allies they could easely throw down the inquisition if they wanted it. and especially logan, hell, he's even got a special rule to indicate he's so loved by many!

[maverik_girl]

It would never happen or come down to that. Especially being a first founding loyal chapter. But going with your what-if... I'd keep protecting mankind but have the Fenris sector go independent from high lord rule, the wolf kingdom would be a territory on it's own, the wolf blades on terra at house belasarious would serve as a embassy LOL

[Gree]

Hypothetical question lets say the inquisition and the GK have had it with the space wolves and think they crossed the line one too many times. We are declared traitor excomunicatus.

 

Would you surrender to the imperium, would you acknowledge being put down. Or would you carve yourself a bloody path against those that betrayed us. I for one if I was a wolf lord would take whatever ships were assigned to my company and turn the planetary bombardment guns straight to titan. Let those that pervert the visions of the emperor taste the wrath of the ravening jaws.

 

It's doubtful that the Wolves, being a First Founding chapter of much influence, would ever get excommunicated in the first place. In addition the Inqusiiton itself is not a unified body, the Wolves have allies in the Inquisiton of their own. Grimnar himself being one of the Imperial Heroes in the Obscuras sector, commanding Astartes forces in the 13th Black Crusade.

 

But assuming for some hypothetical reason they where declared excommunicate then it raises all sorts of questions. The Astartes generally police their own, but you would be hard-pressed to find a chapter willing to attack a First Founding chapter. Not even the Dark Angels would do that (Astartes independance, hunt for the Fallen and general distrust the DA have for the Inquisition being prime reasons for them not to get involved).

 

The Inqusition has their own troops and can probably induct Guardsmen and Navy elements. this is of course assuming that the Inquisition itself is actually united on the matter, and not some random Inquisitor going off the rail. If the GK are invovled you have them and possibly the Red Hunters as well.

 

Now if the High Lords are involved then it becomes a different matter indeed. It's not just the Inqusition anymore, but orders from Terra itself, as shown in the Badab War, Terra's influnece carries great weight. You have chapters like the Minotaurs involved.

 

Would you surrender to the imperium, would you acknowledge being put down. Or would you carve yourself a bloody path against those that betrayed us. I for one if I was a wolf lord would take whatever ships were assigned to my company and turn the planetary bombardment guns straight to titan. Let those that pervert the visions of the emperor taste the wrath of the ravening jaws.

 

You die horribly. Attacking the most heavily defended system in the Imperium right at the heart of the impeial defenses? If by some miracle you actually enter the Terran system you get blown to bits by the system defenses. Read Wolfblade to see how heavily defended the Terran system is. A single Great Company attacking Titan won't even get into bombardment range I can assure you.

 

It would never happen or come down to that. Especially being a first founding loyal chapter. But going with your what-if... I'd keep protecting mankind but have the Fenris sector go independent from high lord rule, the wolf kingdom would be a territory on it's own, the wolf blades on terra at house belasarious would serve as a embassy LOL

 

No, Grimnar is too canny for that. It's one thing to be accused of that by the Inquisiton, but to actually suceed offically from Terra's rule? That's a wrong move. the High Lords and the Inqusition are not the same thing. the High Lords do not tolerate secession at all.

 

Grimnar is better off calling to attention Astartes independance. A First Founding Chapter with millenia of loyal service being declared traitors? The other First Founding Chapters and Astartes won't like that. All Grimnar has to do is call attention that fact and he probably have chapters willing the aid the Wolves in the name of Astartes autonomy.

 

Essentially Badab War 2.0, except Grimnar has far more support than Huron ever did, and a much more secure position considering that Grimnar is not as arrogant as Huron, nor would he ever stoop to something like the Corpse Takers. Even if he is declared a traitor Grimnar can still play this off to his advantage by professing loyalty.

[Decoy]

I'd go Renegade, fighting not in the name of the Emperor, but of Russ and everything it meant to be Fenrisian.

 

Hell. That's pretty much what my Company does anyways; We're Renegade, just not Chaos Renegade.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Well, considering how big of a mess the Badab war was, the war resulting from this would end up being near-Heresy scale, with the Imperium split in two. And now you've got all the enemies of the Imperium much stronger than they were in the Heresy, with the Imperium weaker, meaning they could easily take advantage of the disunity and march straight to Terra.

[lothbrok]

yeah theres really no way the inquistion would dare excommunicate the wolves. their simply to powerful and to declare one of the most well known and respected chapters in existence traitors would result in a massive civil war that could well lead to the final destruction (or atleast a huge loss of power) of the inquistion.

 

it would drag the rest of the first founding in becuase they would begin to feel like their own loyalty was in question and with them would come their succesors. not to mention the high lords wouldnt likely back the inquistion on this, becuase the wolves have always been loyal. so the inquistion ends up with their own troops and the grey knights who frankly dont have a prayer against the combined might of the first founding.

 

not to mention fenris is arguabaly the most well defended world in the imperium save for terra and maybe cadia and attacking it would be almost suicidal.

 

 

but in the what if scenario i would proabaly just keep fighting for Russ and Fenris and tell the inquistion where they can shove their excommunicas traitoras. :angry:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i agree with Gree's commentary.

 

WLK

[skoll]

You die horribly. Attacking the most heavily defended system in the Imperium right at the heart of the impeial defenses? If by some miracle you actually enter the Terran system you get blown to bits by the system defenses. Read Wolfblade to see how heavily defended the Terran system is. A single Great Company attacking Titan won't even get into bombardment range I can assure you.

 

ah but you see terra is not a system, terra is just planet earth ,titan is jupiters moon and far off from earth where the defenses are entrenched. I've no doubt that there are outlying patrols but by the time they realize whats going on only whatever defenses are allocated to titan would be able to respond.

 

This whole argument started when a friend of mine who plays grey knights , argued that the wolves had no chance against the grey knights. I told him his famous grey knights were a bunch of over equipped monkeys and whilst they might all be psykers they are mainly class 1 which means they get visions but no more than that(with high rankers being class 3-5).

 

He said we are just the lap dogs of the imperium and are forced to do whatever the GK say less we be declared excomunicatus..... my response was bring it. But im with ya'll highly doubtful the imperium would risk a first founding chapter and a navigator house to just fulfill the whim of a few inquisitors or a lone one.

[Paradill]

Actually, the entire Terran system (that is to say, the sun and the planets of our solar system) is like a fortress unto itself.. Warfleets, of the mechanicum, inquisition, navy and Astartes patrol it, massive orbital relays ring every planet... there is no way a single chapter, let alone a single great company would have any success in reaching Titan and blasting the GK out of existence..

 

You don't just fortify the throne room, you fortify the entire castle..

 

 

Paradill

[dswanick]

Actually, the entire Terran system (that is to say, the sun and the planets of our solar system) is like a fortress unto itself.. Warfleets, of the mechanicum, inquisition, navy and Astartes patrol it, massive orbital relays ring every planet... there is no way a single chapter, let alone a single great company would have any success in reaching Titan and blasting the GK out of existence..

 

You don't just fortify the throne room, you fortify the entire castle..

 

 

Paradill

And how many of those war fleets, how many of those Astarte patrols, and how many of those orbital defenses are manned by units who would find themselves more loyal to the Wolves than the Inquisition? It wouldn't just be one Great Company, or even the Space Wolves Chapter. How many Astartes Chapters would defend Astartes autonomy against Inquisitorial abuse? That path leads to Civil War, a second Heresy.

[Gree]

You die horribly. Attacking the most heavily defended system in the Imperium right at the heart of the impeial defenses? If by some miracle you actually enter the Terran system you get blown to bits by the system defenses. Read Wolfblade to see how heavily defended the Terran system is. A single Great Company attacking Titan won't even get into bombardment range I can assure you.

 

ah but you see terra is not a system, terra is just planet earth ,titan is jupiters moon and far off from earth where the defenses are entrenched.

 

Incorrect. The entire Terran system is populated from Terra to the outer defenses at Pluto. Read Age of Darkness, they have defenses everywhere. A wandering traitor ship comes in and get's annhilated pretty much instantly.

 

I've no doubt that there are outlying patrols but by the time they realize whats going on only whatever defenses are allocated to titan would be able to respond.

 

The defenses on Titan alone would be more than enough. It's the Fortress Monastary of the Grey Knights and a key headquarters of the Inquisiton, it's going to be a cut above even ''normal'' Fortress Monastaries at the very least. It's orbital defenses will be extensive. The fleet of a single Great Companyt won't do jack.

 

Then you've got the GK fleet around Titan.

 

A single Great Company facing the entire GK chapter? It would be a epic curbstomp by the GK.

 

This whole argument started when a friend of mine who plays grey knights , argued that the wolves had no chance against the grey knights. I told him his famous grey knights were a bunch of over equipped monkeys and whilst they might all be psykers they are mainly class 1 which means they get visions but no more than that(with high rankers being class 3-5).

 

What are you talking about? Grey Knights perform ridiculous stuff all the time. Case in point Draigo.

 

And what are these classes you are talking about? I know that in-universe classifcations exist, the the in-game rules don't translate to these classes at all.

 

And how many of those war fleets, how many of those Astarte patrols, and how many of those orbital defenses are manned by units who would find themselves more loyal to the Wolves than the Inquisition?

 

Not much, the Wolves don't control those units. Otherwise they never would have been picked to guard Terra itself if they could be compromised by an outside chapter.

 

It wouldn't just be one Great Company, or even the Space Wolves Chapter. How many Astartes Chapters would defend Astartes autonomy against Inquisitorial abuse? That path leads to Civil War, a second Heresy.

 

Launching an agressive and suicidal assault against the Terran system is very differant than say, holing up in the Fenrisian sector and portray oneself as a defender of Astartes independance.

 

Attack Terra and you'll find the Wolves losing alot of support. That kind of blatant act of agression at the birthplace of humanity against another Astartes chapter is suicide.

[skoll]

case in point draigo ?? seriously so if in the next codex logan grimnar punches a planet so hard it explodes then re constructs and purifies itself of all chaos taint ever because matt ward wrote it you accept it?

 

what if Ragnar raises his hands up in the air then asks the rest of the space wolves to give him their chi/ki , he then proceeds to create a giant Wolf Spirit bomb which he hurls into the eye of terror fixing the universe forever....

 

I get the feeling that the fluff in the current GK codex might go the way of the squa.... oh right those may not be named.

 

The way space combat works a ship entering a system wouldnt be seen by the rest of the system until light travels its way to the recipient ...which would be ?YEARS even in our system of meager size, the entering shape would see everything tough.An attack on jupiters moon would be easy (at least relatively) then your arguments are more easily shut down than mine.....just like at any given time our entire fleet isnt on fenris clearly the gk dont just so happen to has their fleet there at all times wouldnt they be hunting for traitors?

 

 

Also remember logan grimnar's blood smells like cologne for he is the most interesting man in the galaxy

 

 

--anyway this isnt a discussion on what will result from fighting them or the outcome of my actions against them. Just wanted the opinion of other wolf lords to see what they would do

[dswanick]

And how many of those war fleets, how many of those Astarte patrols, and how many of those orbital defenses are manned by units who would find themselves more loyal to the Wolves than the Inquisition?

 

Not much, the Wolves don't control those units. Otherwise they never would have been picked to guard Terra itself if they could be compromised by an outside chapter.

 

It wouldn't just be one Great Company, or even the Space Wolves Chapter. How many Astartes Chapters would defend Astartes autonomy against Inquisitorial abuse? That path leads to Civil War, a second Heresy.

 

Launching an agressive and suicidal assault against the Terran system is very differant than say, holing up in the Fenrisian sector and portray oneself as a defender of Astartes independance.

 

Attack Terra and you'll find the Wolves losing alot of support. That kind of blatant act of agression at the birthplace of humanity against another Astartes chapter is suicide.

You don't have much of an understanding of human nature, loyalty, or enlightened self-interest either in reality or in the Grimdark Galaxy, do you? ^_^

[Gree]

case in point draigo ?? seriously so if in the next codex logan grimnar punches a planet so hard it explodes then re constructs and purifies itself of all chaos taint ever because matt ward wrote it you accept it?

 

It doesn't really matter who writes it honestly. The Gk have plot armor now. The Wolves don't.

 

what if Ragnar raises his hands up in the air then asks the rest of the space wolves to give him their chi/ki , he then proceeds to create a giant Wolf Spirit bomb which he hurls into the eye of terror fixing the universe forever....

 

Well that's not written down anywhere so it doesn't matter in this discussion.

 

The way space combat works a ship entering a system wouldnt be seen by the rest of the system until light travels its way to the recipient ...which would be ?YEARS even in our system of meager size, the entering shape would see everything tough.An attack on jupiters moon would be easy (at least relatively) then your arguments are more easily shut down than mine.....

 

Did you just ignore my Age of Darkness example? A traitor ship enters the Terran system and get's curbstomped by the defenses horribly. They have monitering stations and observation checkpoints everywhere. The entire system is a fortress.

 

just like at any given time our entire fleet isnt on fenris clearly the gk dont just so happen to has their fleet there at all times wouldnt they be hunting for traitors?

 

They would have a healthy chunk regardless.

 

Also remember logan grimnar's blood smells like cologne for he is the most interesting man in the galaxy

 

Irrelevant to the debate.

 

--anyway this isnt a discussion on what will result from fighting them or the outcome of my actions against them. Just wanted the opinion of other wolf lords to see what they would do

 

You've already seemed to enter into the discussion of what would happen simply be responding to me.

 

Regardless I've already given out an example of what Grimnar would do based on his reputation and known skills (A canny political leader and great Chapter Master)

 

And how many of those war fleets, how many of those Astarte patrols, and how many of those orbital defenses are manned by units who would find themselves more loyal to the Wolves than the Inquisition?

 

Not much, the Wolves don't control those units. Otherwise they never would have been picked to guard Terra itself if they could be compromised by an outside chapter.

 

It wouldn't just be one Great Company, or even the Space Wolves Chapter. How many Astartes Chapters would defend Astartes autonomy against Inquisitorial abuse? That path leads to Civil War, a second Heresy.

 

Launching an agressive and suicidal assault against the Terran system is very differant than say, holing up in the Fenrisian sector and portray oneself as a defender of Astartes independance.

 

Attack Terra and you'll find the Wolves losing alot of support. That kind of blatant act of agression at the birthplace of humanity against another Astartes chapter is suicide.

You don't have much of an understanding of human nature, loyalty, or enlightened self-interest either in reality or in the Grimdark Galaxy, do you? ^_^

 

Actually I do, I'm the one who brought up the whole Badab War analogy remember? I'm just pointing out the difference on attacking the heartland of humanity, and branding onself as loyal and taking the position as the defender of an injured part. The two are quite different and will have different consequences as expected.

 

It's Terra, the heartland of humanity. The Astartes from multiple chapters liberated it from Vandire because Vandire was offending literally everybody. A single suicidal attack won't be seen very well by Astartes chapters at large. Grimnar can play the injured party (The smart choice) or he can play the suicidal agressor.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hypothetical question lets say the inquisition and the GK have had it with the space wolves and think they crossed the line one too many times. We are declared traitor excomunicatus.

 

Would you surrender to the imperium, would you acknowledge being put down. Or would you carve yourself a bloody path against those that betrayed us. I for one if I was a wolf lord would take whatever ships were assigned to my company and turn the planetary bombardment guns straight to titan. Let those that pervert the visions of the emperor taste the wrath of the ravening jaws.

 

It's doubtful that the Wolves, being a First Founding chapter of much influence, would ever get excommunicated in the first place. In addition the Inqusiiton itself is not a unified body, the Wolves have allies in the Inquisiton of their own. Grimnar himself being one of the Imperial Heroes in the Obscuras sector, commanding Astartes forces in the 13th Black Crusade.

 

But assuming for some hypothetical reason they where declared excommunicate then it raises all sorts of questions. The Astartes generally police their own, but you would be hard-pressed to find a chapter willing to attack a First Founding chapter. Not even the Dark Angels would do that (Astartes independance, hunt for the Fallen and general distrust the DA have for the Inquisition being prime reasons for them not to get involved).

 

The Inqusition has their own troops and can probably induct Guardsmen and Navy elements. this is of course assuming that the Inquisition itself is actually united on the matter, and not some random Inquisitor going off the rail. If the GK are invovled you have them and possibly the Red Hunters as well.

 

Now if the High Lords are involved then it becomes a different matter indeed. It's not just the Inqusition anymore, but orders from Terra itself, as shown in the Badab War, Terra's influnece carries great weight. You have chapters like the Minotaurs involved.

 

Would you surrender to the imperium, would you acknowledge being put down. Or would you carve yourself a bloody path against those that betrayed us. I for one if I was a wolf lord would take whatever ships were assigned to my company and turn the planetary bombardment guns straight to titan. Let those that pervert the visions of the emperor taste the wrath of the ravening jaws.

 

You die horribly. Attacking the most heavily defended system in the Imperium right at the heart of the impeial defenses? If by some miracle you actually enter the Terran system you get blown to bits by the system defenses. Read Wolfblade to see how heavily defended the Terran system is. A single Great Company attacking Titan won't even get into bombardment range I can assure you.

 

It would never happen or come down to that. Especially being a first founding loyal chapter. But going with your what-if... I'd keep protecting mankind but have the Fenris sector go independent from high lord rule, the wolf kingdom would be a territory on it's own, the wolf blades on terra at house belasarious would serve as a embassy LOL

 

No, Grimnar is too canny for that. It's one thing to be accused of that by the Inquisiton, but to actually suceed offically from Terra's rule? That's a wrong move. the High Lords and the Inqusition are not the same thing. the High Lords do not tolerate secession at all.

 

Grimnar is better off calling to attention Astartes independance. A First Founding Chapter with millenia of loyal service being declared traitors? The other First Founding Chapters and Astartes won't like that. All Grimnar has to do is call attention that fact and he probably have chapters willing the aid the Wolves in the name of Astartes autonomy.

 

Essentially Badab War 2.0, except Grimnar has far more support than Huron ever did, and a much more secure position considering that Grimnar is not as arrogant as Huron, nor would he ever stoop to something like the Corpse Takers. Even if he is declared a traitor Grimnar can still play this off to his advantage by professing loyalty.

 

I agree with much of this.

 

Echoing Gree....

 

1. A few =][= (probably puritan) would have a hard fight on Fenris. Along with having to deal with other SM chapters who are not aligned with this effort. (Bucharis Invasion shows the folly in this)

2. I think GK's may raise a whole bunch of questions on motives. If SW's are found consorting directly with chaos they are all in. If they are just being persecuted and maneouvered against because of our actions on Armageddon 1, I don't see GK's jeopardizing their mission for that. They may be the ordo militant but they are not lacky, non thinking, attack dogs.

3. High Lords-Agreed, if the High Lords want this, SW's are in serious trouble, BUT, they would have to have absolute, clear cut, reasoning. Just like in the =][= scenario, if the other Chapters see this as a way to control another loyal chapter, first founding at that, it could cause an unwanted schism. (remember, there are way more enemies where their enmity for the Imperium of Man is not in questions).

 

I just think the sentiment of "Let sleeping dogs lie" is jjust too strong. There is no value in prosecuting SW's. Not only for how SW's could defend themselves, but the backlash from the Adeptus Astartes cousins coming to the aide of SW's.

 

 

To answer the question.... Hold tight, and let them try and take the second strongest fortress in the Imperium and show them the bloody folly in such an attempt.

[Lawgiver 67]

I think the wolves stay in their own system and protect it as they always have, and also continue to battle the enemies of mankind. Until someone brings the fight to them... then all bets are off. Don't want none don't bring none!

[dswanick]

It wouldn't just be one Great Company, or even the Space Wolves Chapter. How many Astartes Chapters would defend Astartes autonomy against Inquisitorial abuse? That path leads to Civil War, a second Heresy.

Launching an agressive and suicidal assault against the Terran system is very differant than say, holing up in the Fenrisian sector and portray oneself as a defender of Astartes independance.

Attack Terra and you'll find the Wolves losing alot of support. That kind of blatant act of agression at the birthplace of humanity against another Astartes chapter is suicide.

You don't have much of an understanding of human nature, loyalty, or enlightened self-interest either in reality or in the Grimdark Galaxy, do you? ;)

Actually I do, I'm the one who brought up the whole Badab War analogy remember? I'm just pointing out the difference on attacking the heartland of humanity, and branding onself as loyal and taking the position as the defender of an injured part. The two are quite different and will have different consequences as expected.

It's Terra, the heartland of humanity. The Astartes from multiple chapters liberated it from Vandire because Vandire was offending literally everybody. A single suicidal attack won't be seen very well by Astartes chapters at large. Grimnar can play the injured party (The smart choice) or he can play the suicidal agressor.

I think we're in general agreement on most of this. I think the point I see that I may not be communicating properly is that if =][= were to brand the Space Wolves Ex.Trat. without clear and irrefutable cause then the others (most especially Blood Angels and Dark Angels) with skeletons in the closet would see the writing on the wall. "When they came for the Space Wolves I did not speak out. When they came for the Blood Angels I did not speak out. When they came for me, there was noone left to speak out.". And as the schism grows I think several of the High Lords would see a growing threat in total =][= dominance and would maneuver it so that the wrath of these Chapters could be directed solely at the =][= leaving the Ecchlesiarchy and Terra out of it. It would still be a bloody mess.

That was the situation I was seeing in the hypothetical start to this post.

[FenrisWolf]

ah but you see terra is not a system, terra is just planet earth ,titan is jupiters moon and far off from earth where the defenses are entrenched. I've no doubt that there are outlying patrols but by the time they realize whats going on only whatever defenses are allocated to titan would be able to respond.

 

Not meaning to be a jerk here, but as an astronomy professor, I must point out, Titan is Saturn's moon, not Jupiter's. :)

[maverik_girl]

ah but you see terra is not a system, terra is just planet earth ,titan is jupiters moon and far off from earth where the defenses are entrenched. I've no doubt that there are outlying patrols but by the time they realize whats going on only whatever defenses are allocated to titan would be able to respond.

 

Not meaning to be a jerk here, but as an astronomy professor, I must point out, Titan is Saturn's moon, not Jupiter's. :)

is it the same Titan, as the Grey Knight's homeworld?

[FenrisWolf]

ah but you see terra is not a system, terra is just planet earth ,titan is jupiters moon and far off from earth where the defenses are entrenched. I've no doubt that there are outlying patrols but by the time they realize whats going on only whatever defenses are allocated to titan would be able to respond.

 

Not meaning to be a jerk here, but as an astronomy professor, I must point out, Titan is Saturn's moon, not Jupiter's. :P

is it the same Titan, as the Grey Knight's homeworld?

 

According the GK codex fluff, yes.