The Draigo Wing. How to make it work; how to make it hurt?

[thade]

We've all seen this by now, I think, but just incase...the Draigo Wing is roughly:

• Draigo, the beast that he is.
  
• One or possibly two Dreadknights with Teleporters.
  
• At least two units of Paladins, as large as you can get them, set up for wound allocation games, the number of psycannons maximized.
  

By "set up for wound allocation games", I mean that each model in a given unit has a different wargear loadout compared to the other models, so you can pick-and-choose where wounds land and take full advantage of their 2-wound nature. In addition, each unit gets an Apothecary (and FNP).

 

I'm sure most of you (like me) have read a few bat reps on this list idea and, so far, they seem to be doing well. What I wanted to do in here is spark a conversation about how to handle such a list given an all-comers list or specifically tailored kill-the-paladins lists, for two purposes: 1. so they don't walk over us in all their Grey Knight mightiness, and 2. so when using the list we CAN walk over our enemies in all of our Grey Knight mightiness.

 

Just some basics/obvious stuff first...

 

Strengths:

• Very durable under small arms fire (good base saves, FNP). With 2-wounds each and 5++ in the open, even Plasma is less scary.
  
• Very good assault potential (Banners, Hammerhand, good saves, warding staves, NFWs, Draigo, general GK shenanigans).
  
• Good firepower (Psibolt Ammo recommended, a healthy number of their renowned Psycannons).
  
• Relatively few kill points to offer your opponent.
  
• Draigo can make the Dreadknight(s) scoring, or make units outflank, etc.
  
• Draigo is a *beast*.
  
• This is a seriously fluffy list: always outnumbered, each model a TDA-clad hero with his own custom load-out...this is definitive Grey Knights.
  

Weaknesses:

• Severely outnumbered even by Marines (2-to-1 likely, far worse against horde armies).
  
• Lack of models = lack of guns; can't shoot too many units at a time.
  
• Lack of units means you can cover less ground, engage less units at a time, etc.
  
• If one unit breaks and flees off the table, THERE GOES HALF OF YOUR ARMY.
  
• T4, no Eternal Warrior. A pair of Vindicators (not uncommon in marine lists) could completely wreck your day.
  
• No transports means foot-slogging: at times out in the open, 6" a turn (assuming you're firing every turn, which you very likely will be doing).
  
• Only effective way to handle 2+ saves is in melee...right where the Saguinary Guard (for instance) wants to be. Sure, psycannons rend, but you're shooting those at the LR carrying the relatively bargain-priced and just-as-scary Hammernator team, no?
  
• It bears repeating: you're always surrounded; always.
  

I'll post my tactical thoughts on them later on today (they need some refinement, and really I need my codex for consultation) but I still want to open the floor for discussion.

1. What would you equip the paladins with? The Dreadknight(s)?
   
2. How would you handle the various game/deployment types, given lack of models, 24" range, etc?
   
3. How would you handle the Vindicators? Las-cannon Dreadnoughts? Rail guns?
   
4. Monolith?!
   
5. Various melee power-house units like Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Mephiston, Hammernators, Blood Angel Furious Charge Lighting Claw Terminators?
   
6. Massive horde armies, like Green Tides, tiny-Nids, marine hordes (no LRs, no tanks, all legs)?
   
7. Heavily mechanised armies like IG?
   
8. Highly manueverable armies like Eldar?
   

My unrefined thoughts follow (yet ANOTHER bulleted list):

• Dreadknights rush in to soak fire and cripple/kill Vindicators then mire a unit in an assault.
  
• Maybe crowbar a Librarian in so one of the Paladin units can REALLY bring the hurt, or possibly use The Summoning to augment mobility. As a utility HQ he could have The Summoning and the I10 power, and wield a Nemesis Warding Stave to really make him hard-to-kill.
  
• Combat-squad when appropriate (i.e. to handle lists with lots of light to medium armor).
  
• Get into melee! Vindicators can't shoot you when you're multi-assaulting two to three other units. Multi-assaults mean you probably won't kill/send packing ALL of the units you're tied up with. Heavily restricts mobility but saves you from AP fire.
  
• Halberds. Or, with a Librarian pushing the unit to I10, Falchions.
  
• Draigo can break off and charge units on his own. I've done this with Calgar successfully on many occassions; Mephiston is basically built to do this same thing.
  

[falldown]

This is how I would handle that list.

 

1. Show up with my Necrons

2. See the opposing list

3. Congratulate you on your win

4. Find a different game

 

In all seriousness, you shouldn't worry about Monoliths. As an outnumbered gray knight leader, shoot for the "Necron" units. If you have left over shots or can get into CC with the Lith, go ahead and give it a go. Otherwise, just absorb the hits that it might give you and go after the weaker targets.

 

Necron units are : Warriors, Immortals, Wraiths, Lords, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Flayed Ones

Non Necron units : Tomb Spyders, C'tan, Pariahs, Scarabs

[thade]

In all seriousness, you shouldn't worry about Monoliths. As an outnumbered gray knight leader, shoot for the "Necron" units. If you have left over shots or can get into CC with the Lith, go ahead and give it a go. Otherwise, just absorb the hits that it might give you and go after the weaker targets.

A necron warrior are less than half the cost of a paladin sans upgrades...still outnumbered 2-to-1 at least.

 

Rending from Psycannons won't hurt the Monolith (nor would DK Greatswords) so it'd have to be ignored. Getting into CC with Crons would be the way to go, though shooting the crap out of them could work also.

 

Necrons need an update. :\

 

EDIT: Point value redacted.

[Koremu]

Three Vindicators

[thade]

Three Vindicators

Yep, this is the obvious anti-Paladin list referred to above. From the marine perspective, roll up and pewpew; avoid Dreadknights with those nasty swords. How to handle this from the Paladin perspective?

 

Dreaknight rush. Cover will help to a degree; once the Vindis are in range to fire, they're in range of Psycannons (though you may have to play a positioning game as the GK player to guarantee this). Get in close to them to reduce the Vindicator's effectiveness (hard to fire if they'll risk pasting their own guys).

 

Positioning is key; ork players do this all the time. Full spread on the unit will minimize the number of models that can fall under a template at a given time. Cover is, of course, paramount.

 

What am I missing?

[thade]

Ah, I know what I'm missing. Tactica. :huh:

 

The utility Librarian can definitely bring three servo-skulls to the table (if Draigo cannot, no codex in hand currently). Servo-skulls will restrict the opponent's deployment and assist in DSing almost everybody. I would literally sit Draigo in hard cover all by himself and Communion people in.

 

Dreadknights with Outflank can Shunt into position off their table edge and when the Paladins hit the ground they can lay into them with Psycannons. (They're in TDA, so they get four shots even after DSing. Relentless is a beautiful thing.) Servo-skulls will reduce their scatter to nicely manageable values.

 

I'm now less scared of Vindicators. Thanks, Koremu. NEXT!

[Koremu]

I believe the traditional Grey Knight Tactic is to head directly into the greatest concentration of enemy troops, taking heavy losses the whole way, in order to get one hero to where he needs to be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my impression from the fluff.

 

Aside from "shoot anything that's STR 8/AP2 or better" there's not much to be said.

 

Probably the biggest problem you'd actually face would be an enemy that can saturate your limited target selection. You can target 4 enemy units, which isn't much help if there's 10 Stronos Razorbacks aiming at you.

 

 

EDIT: Also, Land Speeder Storm with their jamming beacon will screw with your Deep Strike Shenanigans. You can't really afford to spend a round of fire on a 50 point speeder, but you'll have to.

[thade]

EDIT: Also, Land Speeder Storm with their jamming beacon will screw with your Deep Strike Shenanigans. You can't really afford to spend a round of fire on a 50 point speeder, but you'll have to.

I'd forgotten all about that. Hrm.

 

One five-man detachment with Psibolt ammo and some Psycannon love would make short work of a Speeder, but it would mean DSing was still restricted. Tricky, tricky.

[falldown]

The other issue is that if you do not get every single Vindi or Vindi equivalent, you can kiss your Deep Striking units goodbye. I'm sure your opponent would squeal with glee when pie plating the entire squad.

[Something Wycked]

I like numbers.

 

Two full Paladin squads (20 models) with the obligatory 4 Psycannons and an Apothecary in each costs a cool 1410 points. Add in Draigo and a pair of PT-equipped Dreadknights and it rings up at 2095- without other upgrades for the Paladin squad or for the Dreadknights. If you add in those (necessary) upgrades, you're looking at a 2500 point force with 5 units and 52 wounds iirc.

 

Three Vindicators only cost around 450 and can ruin the GK player's day.

 

Lascannons, Melta, Demolisher Cannons, Orbital Bombardments... Throw anything at them that is Strength 8+ and AP1/2 to inflict Instant Death, negate their armor saves and FnP and they'll go down like armies that have 5+ armor saves, without having the benefit of a large model count to absorb those losses.

 

However, this is easier said than done when Psycannons are mathematically better anti-tank than Lascannons and also very effective anti-infantry, if lacking in the anti-horde department.