Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon

[KhorneHunter57x]

Hey all,

 

How do Tau Markerlights and the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon interact? The Syphon reduces the BS of units firing with plasma weapons near its wielder, but Tau markerlight counters can be used to increase the BS of a firing Tau unit.

 

I see two possible ways that this could work:

1. The Markerlights increase the BS of the firing unit, and then the Syphon does its work knocking the unit down to BS1.

 

2. The Syphon takes effect first, reducing the firing unit to BS1. The Tau player can then use markerlight hits to boost the BS of the firing unit, reducing the effect of the Syphon.

 

Which order is correct? Syphon, then Markerlights? Or Markerlights, then Syphon?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Something Wycked]

I would say that it is Syphon then Markerlights. My reason is order of operations:

 

1) The Tau unit moves into 12" range of the Syphon (or vice versa, the Inquisitor moving up.) This reduces their BS to 1.

2) The Tau unit starts to perform its shooting phase, and uses Markerlights to increase its BS.

 

As limited as the Syphon is (can only have 2, only on specific Inquisitors, and they only have a 12" range) I think if they were "Ballistic Skill 1, PERIOD" they'd be a little OP.

[Grey Mage]

I think, sadly, the siphon wins out.

 

Why? Because it causes the models ballistic skill to 'count as one'. While in turn, markerlights add +1 to that ballistic skill.

 

So- the markerlight raises their ballistic skill from 3 to 5, and then the siphon makes it count as 1.

 

Edit: I do think it would be more balanced the other way, but rules tell me otherwise. And fluffwise, it makes more sense.

[spartan249]

I agree with Grey Mage here. This priority order fits with the precedences set elsewhere in the GK codex.

[Something Wycked]

But that does sort of ignore the order of operations, doesn't it?

 

I just had in my head an imaginary argument between two imaginary players where one brought up five or so (imaginary) various ways to increase Ballistic Skill in succession, and every time the GK player responded with "And your Ballistic Skill still counts as one."

 

Codex trumps BRB, but I don't feel its fair to allow one codex to trump another except in cases where they get very specific about rules in one codex being aimed at the rules of another codex. This argument is "My GK wargear trumps your Tau wargear."

 

In my vision of things, both pieces of wargear are having their intended effect: the Syphon reduces BS, and the Markerlights increase it. Both players get the advantage that the points they invested into their wargear should buy them.

 

It does make sense from a fluff standpoint, I'll give you that... (Better aiming via Markerlights made moot by the Syphon's effects.) And this is one of those rare instances where it seems GW is intentionally inserting fluff into the rules, especially with the text of the recent FAQ.

[Grey Mage]

Nah... its not a case of GK trumping Tau- its a case of Counts-as trumping actuality. Wich makes sense because otherwise counts as would never have an effect.

[greatcrusade08]

there is a precedent, in the GK FAQ its asked whether or not a halberd can grant its +2I on a model who has intitiative one caused by some effect.. lash whips or somesuch.

the answer is no, they stay at I1

[KhorneHunter57x]

there is a precedent, in the GK FAQ its asked whether or not a halberd can grant its +2I on a model who has intitiative one caused by some effect.. lash whips or somesuch.

the answer is no, they stay at I1

 

Yet the Tyranid FAQ says the exact opposite about Lash Whips:

Q: If a model with Lash Whips is attacking a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified?

A: The Lash Whips will reduce an enemy model’s initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are applied. So, a model with Furious Charge that assaults a Tyranid with Lash Whips will strike at Initiative 2, and an Eldar with a Banshee Mask will strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of assault.

Obviously, in the case of the Halberds, the GK FAQ takes precedence over the Tyranid one as it specifically deals with the interaction between the two pieces of wargear, whereas the Tyranid FAQ only deals with one piece of wargear.

 

However, the Tyranid FAQ establishes the precedent that modifications that specifically name a value that the said stat is changed to (say, "makes stat count as 1") happen before positive wargear modifiers to the same stat ("+1 to stat"), and therefore the positive modifiers affect the new, reduced stat.

[spartan249]

I guess that only goes to show that GW makes each instance of such rule work out in different ways, according to the fluff of the rule. This should have been clarified in the FAQ as well.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Plasma syphons are a bit of a dumb move by GW.

 

Take a look at the Tau codex. Battered and bruised, but a still carrying on as best it can.

 

Where do Imperials get ap1-3 from?

 

Krak missile, Las cannon, Plasma cannon, Plasma gun, Demolisher cannon, Battle cannon, Melta gun, Multi melta, Sternguard ammo.

I know there is some IG/SM overlap, but both nearly get all of that.

 

Then you have mêlée weapons:

Power sword and fist.

 

What do Tau have that is ap1-3?

Rail guns. Fusion blaster. Plasma rifle.

 

Over half the Imperial platforms with the "short ranged" MM are move and shoot things. Dread, Speeders, ABikes.

Piranhas have a Mg. Imperial equivalents have a MM.

 

The only list that relies heavily on plasma for antiMEq is Tau. Other races either do it through torrent or have widespread ap1-3.

 

Whose bright idea is it to nerf the only antiMEq Tau have going for them....?

[Grey Mage]

How often are tau Plasmarifles rapid firing within 12" of their targets? How horrible of an idea is that when vs GK...

 

I dont think this is a balance issue. And balance issues aside, do we have any more evidence on how it should work?

[greatcrusade08]

How often are tau Plasmarifles rapid firing within 12" of their targets? How horrible of an idea is that when vs GK...

 

not to devolove too much into tactics, but they have JSJ, meaning they can enter rapid fire and still not be charged next turn.. it is a reasonable plan of action IMO

[KhorneHunter57x]

How often are tau Plasmarifles rapid firing within 12" of their targets? How horrible of an idea is that when vs GK...

As mentioned, Jump-Shoot-Jump with Battlesuits. Also, the new FAQ makes Pulse weapons (Rifles, Carbines, and Burst Cannons) affected by the Syphon. The Burst Cannons are often on the "safe" platforms of Battlesuits and vehicles, and Fire Warriors with rapid-firing Rifles are often within 12" of their targets (and safely, due to FoF and Piranha blocking trickery).

 

As Wilhelm alluded to, the Tau have two solutions for MEqs: torrent of rapid fire, and plasma fire. As the Tau's torrent of rapid fire is now plasma, well, it does somewhat become a balance issue. However, we are getting a bit off-topic... :)

 

 

 

As there is no clear order in the rules, Dice-off until FAQed?

[Something Wycked]

As there is no clear order in the rules, Dice-off until FAQed?

As for me (being a GK player) I'm going to give the Markerlights' effects to Tau opponents. It just feels the most fair thing to do.

[Koremu]

Wait, do Markerlights add 1 to the firing units BS, or do they add 1 to the die roll for the units shots?

[KhorneHunter57x]

Wait, do Markerlights add 1 to the firing units BS, or do they add 1 to the die roll for the units shots?

 

Here is the quote for the BS effect of markerlights from Codex: Tau Empire:

[markerlight counters on a target may be expended] To allow a unit which fires at the target to do so at +1 to its Ballistic Skill. This effect may be stacked, allowing a Ballistic Skill up to a maximum of 5.

[Koremu]

Hmmm....

 

On balance I'd say that the BS is first reduced to one, and then can be increased again with Markerlight tokens, because the more specific situation (markerlight usage for this shot) overrides the more general limitation (all BS nearby reduced to 1).

[spartan249]

I have a feeling that any future FAQ (if it ever does appear... which I am doubting, some other feeling is telling me) will say that markerlights have no effect against the syphon simply due to the fluff of the wargear. Either that, or they retcon MW's stupidity.

[Roesor]

My understanding was there was no math involved. Your plasma is Bs1. Just like if you charge into cover with frags but have furious charge. You are still i1. Not 2. Not

 

Syphon = -3 + Markerlight = + 1. Simply 'It is bs 1'.

[Spacefrisian]

Never did i see a statt be reduced to 0 except wounds.

[thade]

The RAW here does seem to indicate that it's strictly BS1.

 

Frankly, however, their codex is old; at friendly games I'd throw them a bone.

[jeffersonian000]

Might I add that Tau are a Xeno race, and the Syphon is only available to Ordo Xeno Inquistors, who's job it is to counter Xeno threats? And like most of the counter-arguments given, why would a Tau player even get on 12" from an active Syphon, when they could just kill the offending unit from range?

 

Seems like much ado about nothing.

 

SJ

[Darkmagi]

What about the plasma syphon in a storm raven? could get close enough quickly to really mess up the tau even with them wanting to fire at long range... 24" flat out for a 4+ cover with a syphon reducing bs to 1, immune to melta and possibly a libby for that 3+ cover

[jeffersonian000]

I'm pretty sure the Plasma Syphon would require Line of Effect, so might not work from an enclosed vehicle such as a Stormraven or Land Raider. However, I have no rules to back that up.

 

SJ

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty sure the Plasma Syphon would require Line of Effect, so might not work from an enclosed vehicle such as a Stormraven or Land Raider. However, I have no rules to back that up.

 

SJ

 

It's area of effect, so will be able to effect models while inside a transport. And considering how large the storm raven is that will be a pretty big area of effect as you measure the 12" from the hull.