More Thawn Questions

[Shyft]

Okay, When I buy Thawn; do I pay for the base Terminator Justicar, AND the points for Thawn? So it totals out to 115pts? (I doubt it.)

 

Secondly, Thawn has psymastery lvl 2 and his own entry for Hammerhand; does this mean both he and the squad can cast hammerhand, stacking it for +2 strength? And if so, does this count for total number of powers activated.

 

Basically I'm asking this: Can Thawn + squad activate 2 powers per turn, or 3?

[Something Wycked]

First question: Thawn is an upgrade for the Justicar, so yep, you add his points to the 5 man squad's cost.

 

Second question: There has been much debate about this. My personal feeling is that his PML allows him to cast his own psychic powers; other people feel that Brotherhood of Psykers prevents him from using his PML until he is a single model unit not attached to a squad.

 

So depending on who you ask, he and the squad either get one power per turn or the squad gets one and he gets two.

[cadaver2k]

I think that Thawn can cast HH and then activate the force weapons if need be in one turn. Just my thoughts, could be wrong.

[jeffersonian000]

Before the recent FAQ, I was of the opinion that the rules supported Thawn could use his 2 powers separately from his unit, which at the time I though only allowed him the cast Hammerhand for his squad while he and his squad still had the ability to activate their NFW's. After the FAQ, it seem that Thawn and his squad can both cast Hammerhand, for +2 str, leaving Thawn to have the only active NFW.

 

SJ

[the jeske]

hammer hand cast by the same dude twice does not stack . hammer hand cast by a justicar[ok the unit actualy] and a HQ does.

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeff, nothing in the FAQ addressed how Mordrak/Thawn work with BoP. :D

 

Just another improtant thing they missed off.

[jeffersonian000]

Nothing in the GK FAQ address them, but the BRB FAQ update did. The GK Dex already clearly states how PML and BoP work (BoP is a genaral rule, while PML is a specific rule). There are no conflicts between the two, even though people seem to think there is.

 

SJ

[TheMouth]

I think the only limit is shooting or any psyker power that "targets..." , then he would need to be an IC, if hes not ( no codex in front of me ) an IC he can only do stuff that benefits him...ie non shooting

[Gentlemanloser]

Nothing in the GK FAQ address them, but the BRB FAQ update did. The GK Dex already clearly states how PML and BoP work (BoP is a genaral rule, while PML is a specific rule). There are no conflicts between the two, even though people seem to think there is.

 

I'm sorry but nothing in the BRB faq said anything of the sort.

 

the GK dex *does not* clearly state how Mordrak and Thawn work with BoP. If it did, then the obvious answer is Mordrak and Thanw are bound by BoP. That's the Codex rule. Nothing about Codex > BRB or Specific > General here. BoP, 1 power per unit. Simple.)

 

This issue needs to be FAQed. Nothing was clarified with either GK or BEB FAQ.

[jeffersonian000]

If Mordrak and Thawn are bound by BoP, then why is BoP missing from their statlines? If BoP overrides PML, then why does BoP specifically point out that characters (which all have PML) are treated separately from the BoP unit for power usage? There are enough examples in the GK codex to show how these rules were intended to be used (ex: Nemesis Force Weapon rules).

 

Now, there are a few holes in the rules, such as Paladins having BoP yet no Justicar/Knights of the Flame. But Mordrak and Thawn are individually defined, with their rules clearly stated. I'm not sure where the disconnect is in the 40k community regarding rules and game play; constantly looking for ways to limit play just doesn't seem to be the way the game is intended to be played. Just follow the rules. If the rules say a specific unit can do something, then the unit can do it regardless of a general rule that states otherwise.

 

SJ

[KnowThyEnemy]

before gentlemen rebudles, id just like to add more weight to this pointless argument B). i will grant you that under BoP it says a grey knight unit may use 1 power per turn. if you kindly drift your eyes down to the rule below, PML, it says characters (note: not just IC, but all Cs) may use 1 power for every level he has per turn. so your right, the unit may only use 1, as stated in BoP, but characters (note: not the unit) may use a number of powers equal to their PML. its not the unit using the extra powers, its the character. honestly, if GW has to start writting rules that are then spoon-fed to the masses, ill be sorely disappointed. use your head people.

[Gentlemanloser]

So Codex overrides Codex? ;)

 

If Thawn/Mordrak are part of the unit, and the unit can only cast 1 Power per turn, then how many powers can they use?

 

PML applies when they are single mini units in their own right.

 

They don't need to have BoP, as it applies to the whole unit.

 

I still feel that the intent was probably that Thawn allows his unit to use 2 powers per turn, but the rule writing failed. And needs to be addressed by either an Errata or FAQ answer.

 

Sadly, nothing in either of the two new FAQs addressed this issue in any fashion.

[Angelis Mortis]

The simplest answer is , neither character has BoP. Why you would have them operate under a rule thats not in their statline is odd. BoP is a rule that governs the squads they are part of. BoP SPECIFICALLY says how to deal with character models. (NOTE: It does not say independent characters, it just says character models.) Its very clear, both Thrawn and Mordak are not subject to BoP due to neither having the rule in their stats and what the BoP rule says regardless.

[KnowThyEnemy]

tacital marines cant cast any psychic powers. if you put a librarian in there, does he not get to cast powers either? of course not. the same applies to grey knights. the general rule is BoP, allowing units to cast 1 power. the specific rule is PML, allowing characters to cast 1 power for every PML. i am not saying thawn's PML 2 allows the unit to cast 2 powers. it does not, it allows HIM to cast 2 powers, because he is a character. same for mordrak, except its 1 power.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's this simple.

 

Are they a part of the squad (not attached to it like an IC)?

 

Is the squad bound by BoP?

 

If the answer to both is yes, then they can't use thier PML.

 

If the answer to either is no, then we create additional rule problems for ourselves (they aren't part of the Squad, so no Psybolts for them, and they can be singled out in CC even though they aren't ICs, and don't count towards 'under strength for regrouping' etc. Or the squad doesn;t have BoP, each individual member can then cast HH - go go stacking - and would have to individually activate Froce Weapons, for a single wound).

 

The simple answer is this.

 

They are part of the Squad. The Squad has BoP. BoP effects the whole Squad.

 

*nothing* in the PML rules state, or allow it, to ignore or modify the BoP rule in the slightest.

 

tacital marines cant cast any psychic powers. if you put a librarian in there

 

Again, you're getting hung up with ICs. Thawn and Mordrak aren't ICs and the rules are totally seperate. It's a useless analogy to try to bring Grand Masters, Libby's or any other ICs into this.

 

i am not saying thawn's PML 2 allows the unit to cast 2 powers. it does not, it allows HIM to cast 2 powers

 

Let's put it this way.

 

Thawn activates Hammerhand, and activates his force Weapon (only his, not the units, as he's not using BoP here...). His unit then activates Hammerhand.

 

How many powers in total has the unit activated? 1 or 3?

 

Obviously, 3. As Thawn is a part of the unit.

 

BoP doesn't allow this.

 

BoP SPECIFICALLY says how to deal with character models. (NOTE: It does not say independent characters, it just says character models.)

 

Where?

 

All I see is the mention of not using ICs Leaderships.

 

Edit: Unless you're referencing the seciton of taking perils or attacks that target Psykers and using a random non character if the Justicer/KotF is dead?

 

In which case that has no bearing on the issue at hand (How many Psykers the unit counts as, and whether Thawn/Mordrak are bound by BoP or not).

[Something Wycked]

I never really jumped into this debate before, but now that I'm looking at the rules, I want to add my $0.02...

 

"For each Mastery Level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn."

 

So outside of any other factors, a character can use as many powers as he has PML's.

 

"A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn... A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar... for psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independent character for psychic tests."

 

Pretty self explanatory for normal squads.

 

As 40k is a permissive rule system (you must have permission before you can perform an action), I now have permission to do two things from the above quotations:

 

1) A Grey Knight Squad has permission to use one psychic power per turn.

2) Characters have permission to use #PML psychic powers per turn.

 

Neither permission excludes the other in its text; by my reading, the squad and the character can use their powers independently of one another. Mordrak and Thawn do not have Brotherhood of Psykers and so are not bound by its "one power per turn" rule; they instead have been given permission to use psychic powers, on their own, independent of the squad through the Psyker Mastery Level rule.

 

The wording of BoP would bind the characters into the one unit power per turn if they had the BoP rule and not the PML rule; PML specifically allows the character to do his own thing.

 

Even BoP's statement that the unit uses the Justicar's Leadership doesn't bind Thawn; the unit may use his leadership to make the test, but Thawn is not taking the psychic test himself- the unit is, as a whole, even if they are using his leadership score to make the test.

[Gentlemanloser]

If Mordrak and Thawn aren't bound my BoP, then they aren't part of the unit.

 

And said units have two psykers in them, for the purpose of Culuxes assassins and the like.

 

Oh and the Ghost Knights and Temrinators can't then use thier power anyway, as they don't have a Justicar for them to be either alive or dead.

[Darkmagi]

If Mordrak and Thawn aren't bound my BoP, then they aren't part of the unit.

 

And said units have two psykers in them, for the purpose of Culuxes assassins and the like.

 

Oh and the Ghost Knights and Temrinators can't then use thier power anyway, as they don't have a Justicar for them to be either alive or dead.

 

 

Which technically means that paladins can never use a psychic power, or activate their force weapons.... That completely kills the argument of they never had a Justicar/KoF they can't cast powers. All it means is a random model will take the perils and I would say that the squad cant use Mordrak or Thawns ld for BOP to cast. This frees them to cast their own powers as per PML and they would take the their own perils tests.

[Angelis Mortis]

If Mordrak and Thawn aren't bound my BoP, then they aren't part of the unit.

 

And said units have two psykers in them, for the purpose of Culuxes assassins and the like.

 

Oh and the Ghost Knights and Temrinators can't then use thier power anyway, as they don't have a Justicar for them to be either alive or dead.

 

 

Well, that would be true if you were making up your own rules, but GWs are very clear as expressed above.

[Gentlemanloser]

Which technically means that paladins can never use a psychic power, or activate their force weapons.... That completely kills the argument of they never had a Justicar/KoF they can't cast powers.

 

That's RAW.

 

Would I play it like that? Of course not.

 

As per BoP, you use the Justicars/Keepers Ld for the test (if alive), or random if dead. Paladins never have a Justicar, so can't be alive or dead. Therefore no powers.

 

Badly written rule is badly written.

 

Well, that would be true if you were making up your own rules, but GWs are very clear as expressed above.

 

Yes. It's *very* clear.

 

"A grey knight unit can use one psychic power per turn."

 

That's crystal.

 

For Thawn/Mordrak to not be included there must mean they are not part of the unit.

 

There's no other explanation, nor wiggle room.

[jeffersonian000]

People just seem to act like they have no brain. BoP excludes characters. Mordrak and Thawn are characters. PML is used by characters. Mordrak and Thawn have PML, not BoP. GW uses the term "unit" as a flexible grouping of models that share and are bind by a comon set of rules. BoP applies to all models in a agiven "unit" that can have the rule. PML applies to each character model that has it, regardless of which "unit" they belong to. Thawn and his squad = Unit + Character = BoP + PML = "Unit may use 1 power" + "character may 1 poer per PML" = "Unit casts Hammerhand" + "Thawn casts Hammerhand and activates his NFW" or "Unit activates NFW" + "Thawn activates NFW and casts Hammerhand".

 

BoP and PML stand on their own and do not override each other, per rules as written.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

BoP *does not* exclude characters.

 

It does not exclude characters form the 1 power per turn.

 

The only time it makes a distinction is for resolving perils/attacks that target psykers.

 

That's it.

 

For everything else, characters are included. (Then we can get into the grey area of Independent Charcaters, and what carries across and what doesn't. But that's an issue for a separate topic)

 

Also, if it works like PML+BoP consider this example.

 

Mordrak is taken on his own. He suffers a wound. You roll a 6 and get a free Terminator. Not only do you now get Stealth for free, but Mordrak gets a stackable +1S he can stack on top of his own. For free.

 

Do you really think that's how it should work? Take a wound, roll a 6 (or 4+ or automatic. Depending), then get the ability to give Mordrak +2S? Or +1S and allow him to activate his Force weapon or also use Psychic Communion.

 

For free?

 

It would make Thawns 75 point upgrade negligible in cost, as it's what, 50 points to get an extra psychic cast per turn on Libbies. +2S Initiative 6 Terminators with a Force Weapon. Worth it just for that, let alone his ressurection.

[Gentlemanloser]

Silly internet and double posts. :D

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, yes, that is exactly how I think its played. Morkrak on his own takes a wound, spawns a Ghost Knight, loses Fearless, gains 2 attacks, a 2nd stormbolter, a 4++ save in combat that woulds can be allocated to, Stealth, ATSKNF, and an extra power source for either Hammerhand or more ID wounds to allocate in combat. Why? Because that is what his rules state.

 

And yes, I think if you take a squad of GKT and upgrade their Justicar to Thawn, they gain his PML2 in addition to their BoP, because that is what Thawn's rules dictate. Because that is rules as written.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

You'll need to show, where RAW, that a unit of Grey Knights can cast more than one power per turn.

 

That's the RAW.

 

PML does nothing to eliminate that.

 

(Again, as an aside, I feel the intention is for Thawn to allow his squad to use 2 powers in total. But not three... Edit: Which of course also stops the ultra silly stacking of hammerhand now achievable if thawn/mordrak can cast it *in addition* to thier squad...)