More Thawn Questions

[jeffersonian000]

BRB, rules section pg 3 defines what a "Unit" is.

 

BRB, rules section pg 47 defines what a "Character" is.

 

BRB, rules section pg 48 defines what an "Upgrade Character" is, as well as how a "Retinue" functions.

 

BRB, rules section pg 49 deines what a "Special Charater" is.

 

BRB, rules section pg 50 defines what a "Pysker" is and how "Force Weapons" function.

 

BRB, rules section pg 74 defines how "Universal Special Rules" work.

 

Codex GK, rules section pg 21 defines "Grey Knight Special Rules", including "Brotherhood of Psykers" and "Pschic Mastery Level"

 

Per the GK codex, Grey Knights models with the Brotherhood of Psykers (BoP) special rule are Psykers (BRB pg 50) that as a group (BRB pg 3) can use one (1) psychic power per turn. When using a psychic power, a group of BoP Grey Knights use the Leadership of thier Upgrade Character (as defined by the BRB on pgs 47, 48, and 49) if one is available, or the unit's Leadership if their Upgrade Character is not (C:GK pg 21). The BoP rule further clarifies that if the Perils of the Warp wound (BRB pg 50) is suffered, that wound is applied to the unit's Upgrade Character if one is available, or a random non-character model (BRB pg 47) if an Upgrade Character is not available. BoP is not defined as a power that applies to all models in the unit that do not have the BoP special rules (BRB pg 74).

 

Per the GK codex, Grey Knight models with the Psychic Mastery Level (PML) special rule are Psykers (BRB pg 50) that may use one psychic power per turn per PML number.

 

Codex GK, rules section pg 40 defines the special character "Grand Master Mordrak" and his squad of "Ghost Knights", where it lists Mordrak as having a PML of 1, as well as listing the "Ghostly Bodyguard" special that define how Mordrak interacts with his Ghost Knight squad. Ghost Knights are defined in the Grey Knights Army List section on pg 82, as an addition to Mordrak's unit entry on the same page, which Ghost knights are listed as a unit on 1-5 and that they have BoP.

 

Codex GK, rules section pg 43 defines the special character "Justicar Thawn", where it lists Thawn as having a PML of 2. In the Grey Knights Army List section on pg 91, Justicar Thawn is listed as an addition to the Grey Knight Terminator squad (GKT) entry as a unit of 5 with BoP, and that a single unit of GKT may upgrade their Justicar to the special character Anval Thawn.

 

Codex GK, Wargear section pg 54 defines the "Nemesis Force Weapon" (NFW) as a Force Weapon (BRB pg 50) that may be activited by a unit with BoP, and with a reminder that Independent Characters (BRB pg 47) must activate their NFW on their own.

 

Codex GK, Grey Knights Army List section, shows all Grey Knight Independent and Special Characters that are Psykers have a PML. The section also shows all Grey Knight units are covered by the BoP special rule (as listed in their unit entry). There are no infantry units in the Grey Knight codex that are Psykers without the BoP or PML special rules (vehicles are covered by the Psychic Pilot special rule, pg 21).

 

Both Mordrak and Thawn are treated as upgrade characters per their specific unit entries. Mordrak may take a squad of Ghost knights as a retinue per the BRB pg 48. Thawn is an upgrade character with a special rule that treats his squad as a retinue while his is attached to his squad, and treats him as a "non-Independent Character unit of one" when him is not attached to his squad. Neither BoP nor PML are defined with rules that override the other.

 

As such, Mordrak is a character with PML1 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use any one (1) of his three (3) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Ghost Knights, while his Ghost Knight(s) squad may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Mordrak. There is no conflict.

 

As such, Thawn is a character with PML2 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use up to two (2) of his two (2) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Grey Knight Terminators, while the GKT may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Thawn. There is no conflict.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

a group of BoP Grey Knights use the Leadership of thier Upgrade Character (as defined by the BRB on pgs 47, 48, and 49) if one is available, or the unit's Leadership if their Upgrade Character is not

 

That's incorrect. As is;

 

The BoP rule further clarifies that if the Perils of the Warp wound (BRB pg 50) is suffered, that wound is applied to the unit's Upgrade Character if one is available

 

Justicars and Keepers of the Flame are not upgrade characters. Even if they were, only they are specified by BoP, and not all upgrade characters. You're expanding the written rule there ot include something that's not in it.

 

As such, Mordrak is a character with PML1 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use any one (1) of his three (3) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Ghost Knights, while his Ghost Knight(s) squad may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Mordrak. There is no conflict.

 

As such, Thawn is a character with PML2 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use up to two (2) of his two (2) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Grey Knight Terminators, while the GKT may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Thawn. There is no conflict.

 

No.

 

Nothing allows them to break BoP's restriction of 1 power per turn, while a part of a unit.

 

Both Mordrak and Thawn are treated as upgrade characters per their specific unit entries. Mordrak may take a squad of Ghost knights as a retinue per the BRB pg 48. Thawn is an upgrade character with a special rule that treats his squad as a retinue while his is attached to his squad, and treats him as a "non-Independent Character unit of one" when him is not attached to his squad. Neither BoP nor PML are defined with rules that override the other.

 

Incorrect.

 

Neither are a retinue. A retinue is defined as something belonging to an IC. Neither are ICs.

 

Both are just upgrade characters belonging to a unit.

 

Codex GK, Grey Knights Army List section, shows all Grey Knight Independent and Special Characters that are Psykers have a PML. The section also shows all Grey Knight units are covered by the BoP special rule (as listed in their unit entry). There are no infantry units in the Grey Knight codex that are Psykers without the BoP or PML special rules (vehicles are covered by the Psychic Pilot special rule, pg 21).

 

Bolded for emphasis.

 

Mordrak and Thawn are in the unique position to be both a multi mini unit and a single mini unit.

 

When single, they don't have, or use BoP (which is required for multi mini units) and as such use their PML.

 

You have not shown a single discrete RAW ruling to allow Mordrak/Thawn to override BoP's 1 power per turn limit.

 

It's not there in the RAW.

 

There is no conflict between Mordrak/Thawn using both PML and BoP. When in a multi mini unit, the unit (in total) uses BoP. When alone, they use thier PML. No RAW conflicts.

[Brother Tual]

There is a bit of 'having your cake and eating it too' going on.

 

Both are named characters and both are considered not to be IC's when part of their respective units or otherwise. When not acting independently (on their own) they are bound by BOP. They HAVE to be. Their own specific rules are limited by this. Same as scout etc would be. PML remains dormant until such time.

 

The other way (casting their own powers) treats them as IC's when they are not entitled to be. They cannot behave in this manner and then revert to character status when it suits them (no targetable etc). There is no rule to support this nor any other similar behaviour in any other codex.

 

If PML were to take over BOP it would cancel it out. Nothing supports my claim however this seems like the intention behind the addition of PML to non-IC's. This would effectively play as BOP with 2 powers per turn. Like I said, nothing support this, only my own opinion.

[jeffersonian000]

Please support your comments. I did. Simply stating "incorrect" or "that's wrong" does not negate the point I've made supported by page numbers and specific rules. If you disagree, prove me wrong.

 

SJ

[Darkmagi]

a group of BoP Grey Knights use the Leadership of thier Upgrade Character (as defined by the BRB on pgs 47, 48, and 49) if one is available, or the unit's Leadership if their Upgrade Character is not

 

That's incorrect. As is;

 

The BoP rule further clarifies that if the Perils of the Warp wound (BRB pg 50) is suffered, that wound is applied to the unit's Upgrade Character if one is available

 

Justicars and Keepers of the Flame are not upgrade characters. Even if they were, only they are specified by BoP, and not all upgrade characters. You're expanding the written rule there ot include something that's not in it.

 

As such, Mordrak is a character with PML1 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use any one (1) of his three (3) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Ghost Knights, while his Ghost Knight(s) squad may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Mordrak. There is no conflict.

 

As such, Thawn is a character with PML2 attached to a BoP retinue, allowing him to use up to two (2) of his two (2) psychic powers per turn separately from his retinue of Grey Knight Terminators, while the GKT may use either one (1) of their two (2) psychic powers separately from Thawn. There is no conflict.

 

No.

 

Nothing allows them to break BoP's restriction of 1 power per turn, while a part of a unit.

 

Both Mordrak and Thawn are treated as upgrade characters per their specific unit entries. Mordrak may take a squad of Ghost knights as a retinue per the BRB pg 48. Thawn is an upgrade character with a special rule that treats his squad as a retinue while his is attached to his squad, and treats him as a "non-Independent Character unit of one" when him is not attached to his squad. Neither BoP nor PML are defined with rules that override the other.

 

Incorrect.

 

Neither are a retinue. A retinue is defined as something belonging to an IC. Neither are ICs.

 

Both are just upgrade characters belonging to a unit.

 

 

Actually according to the BRB pg 47 an upgrade character represents a squad leader or unit champion SUCH AS a space marine veteran Sergent... It goes on to say that upgrade Characters DO NOT have an entry of their own, and are just another trooper in their unit. As BOTH Thawn and Mordrak have their own entry they are closer to the retinue rule then a basic upgrade, however the Justicar and Knight of Flame ARE upgrade characters per BRB pg. 47

 

Edit: spelling and punctuation

[Gentlemanloser]

Please support your comments. I did. Simply stating "incorrect" or "that's wrong" does not negate the point I've made supported by page numbers and specific rules. If you disagree, prove me wrong.

 

Sorry. :huh:

 

But I really don't know what more to add. The quotes I commented on are just wrong. :(

 

Here's an example that I hope should end this.

 

BoP works exactly like Stealth and Mordrak and his Ghost Knights are a perfect analogy.

 

 

Mordrak doesn't have Stealth. He (somehow) gains a Ghost Knight. The Ghost Knight has Stealth. The Unit (Mordrak + Ghost Knight) has Stealth.

 

Mordrak doesn't have BoP. He (somehow) gains a Ghost Kngiht. The Ghost Knight has BoP. The Unit (Mordrak + Ghost Knight) has BoP.

 

 

however the Justicar and Knight of Flame ARE upgrade characters per BRB pg. 47

 

To be honest, I was unsure on that point (don't have the BRB to hand), and was going by Upgrade Characters having to be purchased on top of an exisitng unit template.

 

Like a VSS in a SoB squad.

[Darkmagi]

However the stealth rule specifically has been rules that it works with characters that join squads or is a unit with stealth is added to a unit IE Scout Sergent Tellion (sp? (BRB faq)) where it had to be specifically ruled that stealth was granted, here BoP has no such ruling, therefore stealth cannot be used as an example. Also there are many examples of USR's that are not conveyed from character to unit or vice versa, IE: Fearless, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Hit & Run, Scouts, Turbo Boosters... Neither BoP or PML have anything that says either is lost if a non BoP or PML unit joins the other, therefore they must not be mutually exclusive where you can only have one or the other.

[Gentlemanloser]

But, and here's the thing that everyone's getting caught up on.

 

Neither BoP or PML have anything that says either is lost if a non BoP or PML unit joins the other, therefore they must not be mutually exclusive where you can only have one or the other.

 

No characters are joining the unit.

 

And you're right, the rule is badly written.

 

The closest example to it in game is Stealth. (Which required a FAQ to clear it up. BoP def requires a FAQ.)

 

Neither BoP or PML have anything that says either is lost if a non BoP or PML unit joins the other, therefore they must not be mutually exclusive where you can only have one or the other.

 

And yet no one has given any solid proof of anything to allow anything to break BoPs "Unit can only cast 1 power per turn".

[Angelis Mortis]

But, and here's the thing that everyone's getting caught up on.

 

Neither BoP or PML have anything that says either is lost if a non BoP or PML unit joins the other, therefore they must not be mutually exclusive where you can only have one or the other.

 

No characters are joining the unit.

 

And you're right, the rule is badly written.

 

The closest example to it in game is Stealth. (Which required a FAQ to clear it up. BoP def requires a FAQ.)

 

Neither BoP or PML have anything that says either is lost if a non BoP or PML unit joins the other, therefore they must not be mutually exclusive where you can only have one or the other.

 

And yet no one has given any solid proof of anything to allow anything to break BoPs "Unit can only cast 1 power per turn".

 

Uhh...no, the BoP rule says nothing that requires characters to join the unit. It simply refers to how characters are handled (and I point out again, that it does not say Independent Characters, just Characters which includes upgrades). BoP is very clear in that Charcters are separate from rank and file in the unit when it comes to using Psychic powers. Its crystal clear.

[Angelis Mortis]

BoP works exactly like Stealth and Mordrak and his Ghost Knights are a perfect analogy.

 

Why would you say BoP (A codex special rule) works exactly like a USR? How stealth or any other USR works has nothing to do with a codex specific special rule. Apples and oranges my friend.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sorry. :P

 

But I've got to repeat that BoP only mentions characters for taking perils or attacks that effect psykers. That is the only time they're referenced (ICs are also referenced as not being allow to use their Ld for making tests).

 

It does not mention anything to do with characters in the section about limiting the unit to casting a single power per turn.

 

It is crystal clear.

 

The unit can only cast a single power per turn.

 

If Mordrak and Thawn are part of the unit, they can only cast 1 power per turn, which is the single power the unit can cast.

 

There is still no wiggle room for this in how the rule is written.

 

The only way around this would be to claim Mordrak/Thawn aren't actually part of the unit, or that the unit doesn't use the BoP rule.

 

Edit:

 

Heh, we're firmly at the back and forth point of restating arguments already posted in this thread. Probably time to leave this discussion. :) BoP needs a FAQ, it really does. Until then, I don't think any of us will be able to provide enough evidence to actually show how it should work.

 

/salute

[Angelis Mortis]

Sorry. :)

 

But I've got to repeat that BoP only mentions characters for taking perils or attacks that effect psykers. That is the only time they're referenced (ICs are also referenced as not being allow to use their Ld for making tests).

 

It does not mention anything to do with characters in the section about limiting the unit to casting a single power per turn.

 

It is crystal clear.

 

The unit can only cast a single power per turn.

 

If Mordrak and Thawn are part of the unit, they can only cast 1 power per turn, which is the single power the unit can cast.

 

There is still no wiggle room for this in how the rule is written.

 

The only way around this would be to claim Mordrak/Thawn aren't actually part of the unit, or that the unit doesn't use the BoP rule.

 

Edit:

 

Heh, we're firmly at the back and forth point of restating arguments already posted in this thread. Probably time to leave this discussion. ^_^ BoP needs a FAQ, it really does. Until then, I don't think any of us will be able to provide enough evidence to actually show how it should work.

 

/salute

 

Sorry, but FAQ says no-ahh-ahh..

 

 

Q: A psyker can use one psychic power per Mastery

Level, per turn. Is this per player turn? (p21)

A: Yes, otherwise it would state per game turn.

 

 

Again, BoP is irrelevant as both Character DO NOT have BoP as their rules, nowhere in BoP does it say it carries over to characters, as a matter of fact, BoP clearly makes Characters separate from the rank and file.

 

So, in closing, characters, whether upgrade or attached may benefit from the squads power and cast their own. In other words, they get their cake and eat it to. Everything you've stated would require you to ignore some rules to satisfy your interpretation. My interpretation satisfies all the rules. Now which is more logical?

 

And just to show you that it satisfies your "show they aren't part of the unit" requirement (that you made up), neither character has BoP. It doesn't matter if they are part of the unit, THEY DO NO HAVE BoP.

[Whitefireinferno]

Are they IC? Nope then they are part of the Unit My take on it is they are ham stringed until they are a single mini left or otherwise became a Single mini unit in the case of Thawn. Until GW specifically says otherwise IMO GK players attempting to pull this are just trying to have their cake and eat it too.

[jeffersonian000]

It's good that this is your take on it, but unfortunately for you, the rules actually don't support your take on it.

 

Let me restate: I was challenged to support my argument. I did. If you disagree with my argument, then suport your disagreement with actual rules and page numbers. If you are not able to support your argument, then my point stands.

 

I'm not normally and stickler for debate etiquette. However, I was specifically challenged to support my argument, yet my detractors have chosen not to support their argument. It's time to put up or shut up.

 

SJ

[Valerian]

Here's an example that I hope should end this.

 

BoP works exactly like Stealth and Mordrak and his Ghost Knights are a perfect analogy.

 

 

Mordrak doesn't have Stealth. He (somehow) gains a Ghost Knight. The Ghost Knight has Stealth. The Unit (Mordrak + Ghost Knight) has Stealth.

 

Mordrak doesn't have BoP. He (somehow) gains a Ghost Kngiht. The Ghost Knight has BoP. The Unit (Mordrak + Ghost Knight) has BoP.

 

G,

 

Nowhere in the rules does it actually state that BoP works like Stealth. Your analogy is based on nothing more than your own assumption. SJ has provided the best rundown of the applicable rules so far. The final interpretation is simple: units that have BoP can cast a single power per player turn as a single entity. Any character (whether Independent or Upgrade) that have PML that are either attached to, or inherently a part of a unit, cast their powers separately (as many per turn as they have Levels).

 

There is no reason whatsoever to justify the assumption that either Mordrak or Thawn would be contrained by BoP, when they do not have that rule themselves. We certainly have not been directed that it works that way.

 

Valerian

[THE PORTCULLIS]

What I'd like to see is GW release a FAQ update covering this. With this much debate going on its obviously not clear what is going on here, if we need to interrogate the rule book to this extent to try to ascertain the facts and even when done there is still ambiguity then the codex entry for both characters does not suffice. I could trhow my two cents in but I'd just be making a best guess which I think the debate could do without.

 

 

I have a different Thawn question based on his unique coming back to life rule.

 

Let's say he is within a set of terminators making up a squad of ten. On turn one a Vindicare assassin singles him out and he is killed and a counter is placed where he used to be. On your next turn you unsucessfully roll to see if he comes back to life and so the counter remains. The 9 remaining terminators don't wait around and contine up the table with a 6 inch move and a 4 inch run making them 10 inches away from Thawns counter.

 

Now on turn 3 Thawn comes back to life near the counter but theres a problem. The unit is now massively out of coherancy and must at all costs move into it?

 

This can't be right.

 

I was thinking that at the point Thawn came back to life he could perhaps move about like an IC but this can't be right either as this would mean that there would be two possible KPs coming from one initial unit. Or else it could be the case that the terminators can move indipendant of Thawn but not conceede a KP when they die?

 

What ought to happen here?

[jeffersonian000]

Dude, might I suggest actually reading his rules?

 

When Thawn ressurects, he is a single model unit that may not join any other unit, nor be joined by an IC, per the BRB.

 

As to whether or not the rules are clear, I've had no issues determining the correct outcome of the new rules in this codex, with the exception of Falchions and DK Doomfists. Still not sure why everyone else is having issues with this Dex.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

And just to show you that it satisfies your "show they aren't part of the unit" requirement (that you made up), neither character has BoP. It doesn't matter if they are part of the unit, THEY DO NO HAVE BoP.

 

Jeff, I've bowed out of this, as we're only going in circles, but that FAQ entry has nothing to do with BoP, in the slightest.

 

It would just be butting heads for me to carry on, as I'd only say Mordrak doesn't have Stealth, but he's still effected by it when his unit has it.

 

I really would like to bow out of this, and hopefully agree that it needs a FAQ to clarify a very badly written rule.

[Angelis Mortis]

Are they IC? Nope then they are part of the Unit My take on it is they are ham stringed until they are a single mini left or otherwise became a Single mini unit in the case of Thawn. Until GW specifically says otherwise IMO GK players attempting to pull this are just trying to have their cake and eat it too.

It doesn't matter if they are IC's as I stated earlier, BoP references characters (ie, unique w/names), not Independent Characters.

[jeffersonian000]

And just to show you that it satisfies your "show they aren't part of the unit" requirement (that you made up), neither character has BoP. It doesn't matter if they are part of the unit, THEY DO NO HAVE BoP.

 

Jeff, I've bowed out of this, as we're only going in circles, but that FAQ entry has nothing to do with BoP, in the slightest.

 

It would just be butting heads for me to carry on, as I'd only say Mordrak doesn't have Stealth, but he's still effected by it when his unit has it.

 

I really would like to bow out of this, and hopefully agree that it needs a FAQ to clarify a very badly written rule.

 

That's not me you are quoting.

 

Personally, I don't think an FAQ is required, because the rules as written support my postion. Of course, everyone's mileage varies.

 

SJ

[KnowThyEnemy]

agreed on not needing the FAQ. i dont understand what is so hard to wrap the mind around here. in PML, it specificaly says characters may use a number of powers equal to their PML per turn. Mordrack and Thawn are characters yes? following these rules...as written may i add...doesn't force either of these two to "be separate from the unit but within the unit but all hell now breaks lose and the world comes to a fiery death", it simply means that because they are CHARACTERS, they can cast more powers, regardless of whatever your average GK can do. characters people, it is the word that shall set you freeeeeeee :). i could care less if people think they have BoP, that does not change the fact they are characters bound by the rules for PML.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not me you are quoting.

 

Doh! Apologies!

 

I blame that on using my lappy late at night after watching 5 episodes of Ghame of Thrones. ;)

[Angelis Mortis]

agreed on not needing the FAQ. i dont understand what is so hard to wrap the mind around here. in PML, it specificaly says characters may use a number of powers equal to their PML per turn. Mordrack and Thawn are characters yes? following these rules...as written may i add...doesn't force either of these two to "be separate from the unit but within the unit but all hell now breaks lose and the world comes to a fiery death", it simply means that because they are CHARACTERS, they can cast more powers, regardless of whatever your average GK can do. characters people, it is the word that shall set you freeeeeeee ;). i could care less if people think they have BoP, that does not change the fact they are characters bound by the rules for PML.

 

I think this puts it in the best laymen terms possible. Agreed on all points. I think thats exactly how it works.

[Something Wycked]

What I'd like to see is GW release a FAQ update covering this. With this much debate going on its obviously not clear what is going on here, if we need to interrogate the rule book to this extent to try to ascertain the facts and even when done there is still ambiguity then the codex entry for both characters does not suffice. I could trhow my two cents in but I'd just be making a best guess which I think the debate could do without.

It actually is really clear; the upgrade characters have Psyker Mastery Levels, allowing them to cast psychic powers on their own or when attached to a squad. The squad has Brotherhood of Psykers and is allowed to use one power per turn. Nothing in either of those rules disallows the other from happening.

 

The 9 remaining terminators don't wait around and contine up the table with a 6 inch move and a 4 inch run making them 10 inches away from Thawns counter.

 

Now on turn 3 Thawn comes back to life near the counter but theres a problem. The unit is now massively out of coherancy and must at all costs move into it?

 

This can't be right.

 

I was thinking that at the point Thawn came back to life he could perhaps move about like an IC but this can't be right either as this would mean that there would be two possible KPs coming from one initial unit. Or else it could be the case that the terminators can move indipendant of Thawn but not conceede a KP when they die?

All of this is spelled out in the codex :) But here goes:

 

As soon as Thawn revives, he is a separate unit in his own right.

 

He moves about as an IC, and does count as another kill point if he is alive when the game ends, no matter how many times he has been killed.