land raider rush viable aganst GK?

[MomentoMori]

What is the general consensus of csm and land raider rush army list?

 

Would it be viable against GK?.

 

Does any one have any experience with it in a large point game? 2500 point preferred.

 

 

I ask this cause the new FAQ came out and obviously something an old/new strategy needs to be developed. And since GK main anti av14 is a single assassin I'd give raider rush an attempt. Would like input before I buy them.

[Ashe Darke]

I don't know, my psycannons have popped more Raiders than my assassin. It depends on the list really, but don't think it all comes down to that one guy, there's a lot more than just him for AV 14.

[MomentoMori]

Psycannons is str 7 with rending? That's what possible str 10? I guess I can se that happening. GKs do pack a craptastic amount of psycannon spam. Still AP3 that's about as strong as ML spam I'd take that vs raider rush I think.

[the jeske]

What is the general consensus of csm and land raider rush army list?

chaos LR are bad , which makes chaos LR rush builds worse then the ones SW or BA can do.

But the build is the only "other" way we can play csm .

 

Would it be viable against GK?.

at how many points played. On general GK armies run a lot of rending and/or fast moving MC to deal with AV14 . all of them run vindicars which are 4d6+3 with rending on armor penetration hiting on +2.

 

Does any one have any experience with it in a large point game? 2500 point preferred.

chaos has problems with over 1750 pts games because there isnt much you can add to the list other then taking 6 troops and 9 oblits . Other armies have units that are not viable at 1500 or even 1750 , but fit in to a 2500 [for example every loyalist army will probably run a LR counter unit or two] .We have problems with rate of fire [with FA/elite more or less not existing] and have to deal with gimik stuff like 8 man biker units or 2x5 chosen with 5 specials outflanking.

I ask this cause the new FAQ came out and obviously something an old/new strategy needs to be developed.

why ? we cant get over the pms/zerker or csm with oblits . there is nothing better or new you can do with the dex we have .No matter what points you play.

 

 

And since GK main anti av14 is a single assassin I'd give raider rush an attempt.

maybe at 1k pts . AT 2500 you will be facing tons of rending and MC .

[Gore-Child]

I just don't play agiasnt them anymore. Simple. i play for fun yes....but when you can hardly touch them there is no fun....not even getting to role armour saves..just die

[Something Wycked]

@ OP: LR rush can work, even with jeske's "our codex is maimed, it won't!" opinion. The problem you're going to face is that most squads of GK will have a strength 10 thunder hammer, then there's the Vindicare, then there's Dreadknights with Greatswords rolling 6+2d6 armor penetration and the ability to reroll all hits/wounds/armor penetrations. Grey Knights can also do melta spam with henchmen and mini-oblits with the monkeys. And Psycannons. They can work against AV14, but it isn't reliable- you have to first roll a 6 on your armor penetration, then you have to roll 3+ on the Rending to get a Pen, and then a favorable damage result.

 

The thing to remember is everyone's list is different. Many people feel Dreadknights aren't worth taking, and instead fill their list with 3 Psyfleman Dreadmoughts- and your LR really doesn't need to be afraid of those. My own list would probably have issues with a lot of LR's. It can handle armor spam, but unless I get lucky with my Psycannons I would not be able to open up a handful of Landraiders outside of assault, and that's right where you want me- close by your destroyed Land Raider so you can get the charge instead of me.

 

I just don't play agiasnt them anymore. Simple. i play for fun yes....but when you can hardly touch them there is no fun....not even getting to role armour saves..just die

Why? Do you also not play against Eldar because of Howling Banshees? They automatically go first and you never get an armor save against them. :mellow:

[the jeske]

Do you also not play against Eldar because of Howling Banshees? They automatically go first and you never get an armor save against them

and they wound us on +5 or +6 with str 3 and against pms[which why wouldnt we use?] they dont get extra A.

 

 

and your LR really doesn't need to be afraid of those.

str 8 shots 4 each dread . with re-rolls x3 12 str 8 shots . I dont know SW work with 10-15 RL against LR just fine and they dont have a vindicar . that is not counting any rending from the psy canons or las/plas razors .because if they arent using dreadknights it means they play a crow build [or henchaman but then it doesnt matter].

[Gore-Child]

@Something Wyched

 

I enjoy fighting Eldar....But Eldar dont run a how army of banshees on crack :o....a few squads of PWN is fine by me....a whole army of it, hitting me first, wipeing out my squad with out attacks back....no fun at all. And yes i can hide in terrain unto they come to me so i hit first...but if they were smart they would jsut shoot me while im in it....and even if they arn't....Im World Eaters....I dont hide...I charge ;). GK are the ONLY army I have no fun fighting. I even love BA, its fun fighting another CC army that i can damage (even if i loose because my mate that plays them is a lot better then myself and useing a much better codex). But when im struggleing to do any wounds...i get very bored. very fast

[Something Wycked]

and your LR really doesn't need to be afraid of those.

str 8 shots 4 each dread . with re-rolls x3 12 str 8 shots . I dont know SW work with 10-15 RL against LR just fine and they dont have a vindicar.

Yeah, that 16.67% chance to score a glancing hit and 0% chance to penetrate is so scary :rolleyes:

 

@ Gore: It sounds like your GK opponent is specifically kitted out for anti-assault. That means you need to change up your tactics a little bit, use more shooting elements to your army ^_^ At least he isn't bringing the real Howling Banshees on crack: the Death Cult Assassins.

[the jeske]

Yeah, that 16.67% chance to score a glancing hit and 0% chance to penetrate is so scary

on top of the 3-4 razor las shots and 6-8 psycanons with rending and the vindicator , yes it is viable to take a LR rush build . If it werent people wouldnt play it.

[Something Wycked]

All I said, jeske, was that LR's don't need to be afraid of Psyflemen, and you jump on me about all these other weapons that I didn't say anything about.

 

Yes, Lascannons are twice as effective per hit on the LR.

 

Yes, Psycannons have a chance to hurt LR's too; the same percentage, in fact. Its just split between Penetrating and Glancing 11.11% versus 5.56% per shot.

 

I don't see why you're bringing up a Vindicator though, because Grey Knights can't take Vindicators :huh:

 

In any case, I still completely stand by my original statement, regardless of how many strange ways you'd like to attack it.

[Brother Nihm]

I am certain that Jeske meant Vindicare and not Vindicator. :huh:

[the jeske]

All I said, jeske, was that LR's don't need to be afraid of Psyflemen, and you jump on me about all these other weapons that I didn't say anything about.

because there is no such thing as LR vs rifle man games . The armies are more or less pre made . either dude is playing a GKSS army and then he has dreads and/ro rifle man and always a vindi . Or he plays crow and then he has puris more rifle man and a vindi . the chaos LR army at its optimal has an even less flexbile structure . You just cant get away from the 2DP 4 troops[2rhino pms for cheap support and 2 zerkers in LR]. Saying that a LR has nothing to fear from rifle man is a lie , because in deed rifle man are the problem because either there is tons of fire incoming on those 2-3 tanks [without potms , no shoting turn , no possible way to stun lock the rifle man and/or razors if a crow build is being used] . One can say stuff like well oblits wont be a problem for this list , because unless someone does an un optimal army chaos wont have any good support other the oblits . GK have other support then rifle man , rifle man can hurt LR [specialy those without POTMS and/or runing demoninc possession] ergo they are a problem .

 

 

I don't see why you're bringing up a Vindicator though, because Grey Knights can't take Vindicators

ha ha ha . let us laugh at the dumn russian . Dude you well know that am talking about the 4d6+3 rending sniper assasin .

[Something Wycked]

Okay, first off, let me say that I in no way intended the Vindicare/Vindicator thing as anything resembling an insult at all. It was perfectly spelled Vindicator, so I just thought it was a mistake; I was in no way ridiculing you.

 

...and always a vindi . Or ... and a vindi.

 

I really don't buy the "only the most optimal list has a chance of winning ever" philosophy. Check out this thread; BA list with a bunch of basic troops winning 4/5 games at the UK GT in April. The only thing he lost to was an IG parking lot.

 

And you'll say "Right? That's the new BA codex, we're using this broken Chaos codex that doesn't work at all ever never unless you bring the most optimal list that the internet can math hammer up."

 

To which I'll reply: A friend of mine plays the Chaos codex. In a 4 player free for all game against Eldar, Black Templars, and 5th edition Marines, my Chaos friend single handedly wiped all three opposing armies off the board. Not because the other players ignored him and allowed him to do damage without being harassed; he just owned that much face. With the Chaos codex. With an army list very, very different than the most optimal list. He regularly wins the majority of his games, both casual and at the LGS, without using anything like an "optimized" list.

 

Conclusion: C:CSM Land Raider rush can work against Grey Knights. YMMV, of course, but the potential is there. Just because a given codex has the tools to defeat it doesn't mean that every opponent will take all or even any of those tools.

 

Lets be honest; every codex has the tools in it to defeat a Land Raider rush. Not every player brings those to the table or has the ability to use those tools effectively.

[Corby]

Okay, first off, let me say that I in no way intended the Vindicare/Vindicator thing as anything resembling an insult at all. It was perfectly spelled Vindicator, so I just thought it was a mistake; I was in no way ridiculing you.

 

...and always a vindi . Or ... and a vindi.

 

I really don't buy the "only the most optimal list has a chance of winning ever" philosophy. Check out this thread; BA list with a bunch of basic troops winning 4/5 games at the UK GT in April. The only thing he lost to was an IG parking lot.

 

And you'll say "Right? That's the new BA codex, we're using this broken Chaos codex that doesn't work at all ever never unless you bring the most optimal list that the internet can math hammer up."

 

To which I'll reply: A friend of mine plays the Chaos codex. In a 4 player free for all game against Eldar, Black Templars, and 5th edition Marines, my Chaos friend single handedly wiped all three opposing armies off the board. Not because the other players ignored him and allowed him to do damage without being harassed; he just owned that much face. With the Chaos codex. With an army list very, very different than the most optimal list. He regularly wins the majority of his games, both casual and at the LGS, without using anything like an "optimized" list.

 

Conclusion: C:CSM Land Raider rush can work against Grey Knights. YMMV, of course, but the potential is there. Just because a given codex has the tools to defeat it doesn't mean that every opponent will take all or even any of those tools.

 

Lets be honest; every codex has the tools in it to defeat a Land Raider rush. Not every player brings those to the table or has the ability to use those tools effectively.

 

 

A four player game isn't standard 40k however , armies can perform very differently when taken out of the 1v1 situation of standard 40k and into scenarios that arn't supported by the rules. While I'm all for fun and innovation in scenarios , when discussing viable competitive lists , referencing a non standard game of 40k does little to support an arguement in my opinion.

 

Chaos marines are confined to their standard toolbox as always , princes , oblits , termicide and landraiders with minmum scoring units when it comes to dealing with Grey knights , while landraiders are a tempting solution to the problem , in a tournament setting , they're far from ideal for a basis for a list as they have plenty of easy counters ( ie melta.) and can be removed with a single penetrating hit.

 

@ The Jeske , fast moving mcs are hardly a common factor in grey knight lists in a tournament setting in my opinion , from my experience grey knights have several different builds , some of which are more viable than others , such as Terminator wings , Msu razorback squads with supporting dreads and purifiers , Crowe purifier msu builds , henchmen armies and finally foot knights , The dreadknight is hardly an effective unit in a tournament , 205 points just so it can move quickly , with a 5+ invunerable save? I'll gladly face that than several dreadnoughts pumping S8 shooting into me from turn 1.

[Something Wycked]

A four player game isn't standard 40k however , armies can perform very differently when taken out of the 1v1 situation of standard 40k and into scenarios that arn't supported by the rules. While I'm all for fun and innovation in scenarios , when discussing viable competitive lists , referencing a non standard game of 40k does little to support an arguement in my opinion.

While yes, it was not a "competitive" rule set, I would argue that it was a tougher rule set. Since the game was FFA, it was allowed to shoot into melees that did not include your own troops, and other common-sense tweaks of that nature. The point is that a non-optimized Chaos list simultaneously took on three other identical size armies and wiped them all out.

 

Chaos marines are confined to their standard toolbox as always , princes , oblits , termicide and landraiders with minmum scoring units when it comes to dealing with Grey knights , while landraiders are a tempting solution to the problem , in a tournament setting , they're far from ideal for a basis for a list as they have plenty of easy counters ( ie melta.) and can be removed with a single penetrating hit.

Here we disagree; in my eyes, Chaos Marines aren't confined to anything that you don't personally confine them to.

 

I can argue that Draigowing is worthless because opponents "can" take a full list of Meltas and Lascannons, but that list will lose to a horde army and is certainly not an all-comers list that you'd see in a competitive environment. Similarly with Chaos, I think you'd be surprised how effective a non-optimized list would be simply due to the surprise factor. If players in a competitive environment expect to see precisely one list out of a Chaos player, they gear themselves for that list. If you bring something different, they're not geared to fight you.

 

A Chaos Land Raider rush can work versus Grey Knights, especially if the Grey Knights are kitted to fight your "optimized" Lash Princes, Plague Marines, and 3x3 Oblits.

[Corby]

A four player game isn't standard 40k however , armies can perform very differently when taken out of the 1v1 situation of standard 40k and into scenarios that arn't supported by the rules. While I'm all for fun and innovation in scenarios , when discussing viable competitive lists , referencing a non standard game of 40k does little to support an arguement in my opinion.

While yes, it was not a "competitive" rule set, I would argue that it was a tougher rule set. Since the game was FFA, it was allowed to shoot into melees that did not include your own troops, and other common-sense tweaks of that nature. The point is that a non-optimized Chaos list simultaneously took on three other identical size armies and wiped them all out.

 

Chaos marines are confined to their standard toolbox as always , princes , oblits , termicide and landraiders with minmum scoring units when it comes to dealing with Grey knights , while landraiders are a tempting solution to the problem , in a tournament setting , they're far from ideal for a basis for a list as they have plenty of easy counters ( ie melta.) and can be removed with a single penetrating hit.

Here we disagree; in my eyes, Chaos Marines aren't confined to anything that you don't personally confine them to.

 

I can argue that Draigowing is worthless because opponents "can" take a full list of Meltas and Lascannons, but that list will lose to a horde army and is certainly not an all-comers list that you'd see in a competitive environment. Similarly with Chaos, I think you'd be surprised how effective a non-optimized list would be simply due to the surprise factor. If players in a competitive environment expect to see precisely one list out of a Chaos player, they gear themselves for that list. If you bring something different, they're not geared to fight you.

 

A Chaos Land Raider rush can work versus Grey Knights, especially if the Grey Knights are kitted to fight your "optimized" Lash Princes, Plague Marines, and 3x3 Oblits.

 

Once again , I'm looking at the viability of landraider rush in a competitive setting , so referencing how a chaos army did under a tougher rule set that is outside the main rule book is irrelevent. Shooting into melee gives chaos armies a massive advantage with plasma cannons on obliterators being able to fire at tightly grouped up targets.

 

Chaos are confined to a set toolbox for tournament play , without the 9 obliterator backbone and a daemon prince they suffer massivley in a tournament setting due to not having the right tools to deal with other armies. I've regularly attended tournaments over the last year and I've yet to see a chaos player bring anything but 9 obliterators and a daemon prince as standard. Tournaments arn't once off games , you've to cater to a wider field , building a chaos landraider rush list because you think it will beat grey knights ultimately undermines you against any other army ( ie , Guard , dark eldar , Eldar , Any Meq with melta ,Sisters of battle , Tau , Ork kan wall) which is why it isn't a good solution to the problem.

 

Grey Knights have a hard time with Obliterators , a 2+ and sitting in the backfield with cover is a pain to shift , Grey knights only have autocannon dreadnoughts with psybolt ammo to deal with them at long range ( grey knights are a midfield army) , and even then the obliterators have a 2+ armour save to get through. Its incredibly likely that dreadnoughts will be dead before the obliterators. From my time spent playing in tournaments , while landraider rush seems like an effective solution on paper , its a terrible idea in practice , catering to deal with a single army in a tournament is a inefficent solution to the grey knight problem. Heck most standard Chaos obliterator lists I've played against already had 2 landraiders present before the grey knights were released.

[Something Wycked]

Once again , I'm looking at the viability of landraider rush in a competitive setting , so referencing how a chaos army did under a tougher rule set that is outside the main rule book is irrelevent. Shooting into melee gives chaos armies a massive advantage with plasma cannons on obliterators being able to fire at tightly grouped up targets.

And once again, you're assuming he had an "optimized" list. He had no Obliterators in his list that day, no massive advantage there over standard competitive play :lol:

 

Chaos are confined to a set toolbox for tournament play... Grey knights only have autocannon dreadnoughts with psybolt ammo to deal with them at long range...

I look forward to playing a Chaos list like that then, and playing Chaos players who expect out of me 2-3 Psyflemen just by hearing "I'm a Grey Knights player." Destroying Oblits isn't an issue for me because I don't bring Psyflemen- and even if I did bring Psyflemen, that isn't the tool I'd use for the Obliterator removing job- terribly inefficient.

 

Personally I'd use a unit of shunting Interceptors or a DK to take out Oblits. Or both. Inflicting Instant Death with Nemesis Force Weapons and ignoring that 2+ armor save and getting a Preferred Enemy: Daemon reroll sounds fantastic to me instead of taking an "optimized" list and wasting a bunch of Psyflemen dakka.

 

Do you get what I'm saying? Optimized lists, aren't, if everyone knows exactly what you're going to bring and exactly how you're going to play. It makes you the easiest thing in the world to counter.

 

Heck most standard Chaos obliterator lists I've played against already had 2 landraiders present before the grey knights were released.

So LR rush works? :drool:

[Corby]

Once again , I'm looking at the viability of landraider rush in a competitive setting , so referencing how a chaos army did under a tougher rule set that is outside the main rule book is irrelevent. Shooting into melee gives chaos armies a massive advantage with plasma cannons on obliterators being able to fire at tightly grouped up targets.

And once again, you're assuming he had an "optimized" list. He had no Obliterators in his list that day, no massive advantage there over standard competitive play ;)

 

Chaos are confined to a set toolbox for tournament play... Grey knights only have autocannon dreadnoughts with psybolt ammo to deal with them at long range...

I look forward to playing a Chaos list like that then, and playing Chaos players who expect out of me 2-3 Psyflemen just by hearing "I'm a Grey Knights player." Destroying Oblits isn't an issue for me because I don't bring Psyflemen- and even if I did bring Psyflemen, that isn't the tool I'd use for the Obliterator removing job- terribly inefficient.

 

Personally I'd use a unit of shunting Interceptors or a DK to take out Oblits. Or both. Inflicting Instant Death with Nemesis Force Weapons and ignoring that 2+ armor save and getting a Preferred Enemy: Daemon reroll sounds fantastic to me instead of taking an "optimized" list and wasting a bunch of Psyflemen dakka.

 

Do you get what I'm saying? Optimized lists, aren't, if everyone knows exactly what you're going to bring and exactly how you're going to play. It makes you the easiest thing in the world to counter.

 

Heck most standard Chaos obliterator lists I've played against already had 2 landraiders present before the grey knights were released.

So LR rush works? :(

 

Shunting interceptors? Oh wow , you shunt up near me to try and try get a charge the following turn( remember you can't charge after you shunt ;) ) you eat alot of plasma shooting in return , horribly inefficient. This game isn't played in a vacuum however.

The standard mech Knight build doesn't have anything of a low enough ap to ignore an obliterators armour save. (Rending psycannons can do it but you've to be close the the obliterators , which is unlikely with proper screening on the chaos players part. )

Multi-melta servitors can work as well but they require a couple of turns to get into posistion.

 

You seem to presume in a tournament that you know everyones lists before hand , you don't. You build your list to counter the meta game (Mech.) and currently chaos is confined to some limited tools to do that.

Once again, I think you're looking at this from a once off game stand point , where I'm viewing its viability in a tournament setting , building a landraider rush list to try and counter grey knights for a once off game is list tailoring really.

 

Landraider Rush isn't what I'm describing. The list I'm talking about sits back and shoots you for 5+ turns for terribly durable units where everything is min/maxed for efficency. A landraider rush list , much like a rhino rush list , takes several (Ie. 3 or 4) landraiders with assault troops and gets in your face , and loyalist marines do the landraider rush approach better.

[Something Wycked]

Shunting interceptors? Oh wow , you shunt up near me to try and try get a charge the following turn( remember you can't charge after you shunt ;) ) you eat alot of plasma shooting in return , horribly inefficient. This game isn't played in a vacuum however.

 

The standard mech Knight build doesn't have anything of a low enough ap to ignore an obliterators armour save. (Rending psycannons can do it but you've to be close the the obliterators , which is unlikely with proper screening on the chaos players part. )

Obviously we're not playing in a vacuum. Cover will be made use of, and the Psycannons don't have "to be close" to rend. Screening also doesn't matter, since Shunt moves ignore intervening models and terrain.

 

You seem to presume in a tournament that you know everyones lists before hand , you don't. You build your list to counter the meta game (Mech.) and currently chaos is confined to some limited tools to do that.

;) Wait a minute... /looks back at the previous post:

 

Chaos are confined to a set toolbox for tournament play , without the 9 obliterator backbone and a daemon prince they suffer massivley in a tournament setting due to not having the right tools to deal with other armies. I've regularly attended tournaments over the last year and I've yet to see a chaos player bring anything but 9 obliterators and a daemon prince as standard.

 

First you tell me that every Chaos player brings a set list, and then you try saying that I don't know they'll be bringing a set list. :P