AV2 vs. AV3

[Brother_Byhlli]

Hey, guys.

 

I was thinking about elite lists and decided to look into doing an AV2 spam list, when I found myself wondering what AV2 would protect you from that AV3 doesn't.

 

Obviously you get a better save against anything that can't auto-penetrate the armour, but I was wondering if there were any particularly common weapons that are AP3 you'd bypass nasty wounds on by taking exclusively AV2.

 

Anyone got any info on this?

[knife&fork]

Hey, guys.

 

I was thinking about elite lists and decided to look into doing an AV2 spam list, when I found myself wondering what AV2 would protect you from that AV3 doesn't.

 

Obviously you get a better save against anything that can't auto-penetrate the armour, but I was wondering if there were any particularly common weapons that are AP3 you'd bypass nasty wounds on by taking exclusively AV2.

 

Anyone got any info on this?

 

AV is generally used only for vehicles. Use the term X+ or x+ SV.

 

It kinda depends on what people play in your area, but the most common thing is missile launchers.

[Xenith]

battlecannons, earthshakers, dark reapers.

[Brother Biskit]

Krak Missiles and Inferno cannons are the main things. Theres some other things like tau rail rifles and thinks like that but you dont tend to see these to much.

[Brother_Byhlli]

AV is generally used only for vehicles. Use the term X+ or x+ SV.

 

My bad, thanks!

 

Yeah, it seemed from what little I could glean looking through C:BA and a few other references I had that 2+SV pretty much only covers Krak missiles. I appreciate that there are other weapons out there that have AP3 that I'm just not seeing because I don't have all Codexes available to me.

 

From what you guys have said, though, 2+SV is going to make the biggest difference against... what? Imperial Guard? If that's the case, it's a bit of a pain. I guess Imperial Guard are one of the armies you really don't want to be small and elite against, huh?

[knife&fork]

From what you guys have said, though, 2+SV is going to make the biggest difference against... what? Imperial Guard? If that's the case, it's a bit of a pain. I guess Imperial Guard are one of the armies you really don't want to be small and elite against, huh?

 

Imperial guard tend to be melta, plasma and lascannon heavy these days.

[Darklighter]

Flamestorm cannons will be the bigest problem as you don't even get a cover save vs them. The big draw with terminator armour you also get a 5++ which means you get a save even against AP 1 and 2 weapons out in the open. I don't run terminators at the moment as I like to have lots of bodies on the board I usualy have 40-50 men in a 1500-1750 game. More bodies helps to balence out the insta kill weapons a bit more than going very elite (the way I roll dice anyway).

[breng77]

Are you taking about a 2+ armor save VS a 3+ armor save?

 

If that is the case the big difference is missiles AP 3 and double toughness on marines. The other things to consider are:

1.) A 2+ save is statisically twice as good as a 3+ save against AP4 and higher weapons.

2.) Most models with 2+ save also have some sort of invunerable save, which means that against AP 1 and 2 they will still get a save (in the largest 2+ armor save spam army that is likely to be a 3+ save.)

[Brother_Byhlli]

Are you taking about a 2+ armor save VS a 3+ armor save?

 

Yes.

 

If that is the case the big difference is missiles AP 3 and double toughness on marines.

 

I don't follow what you mean by "double toughness on marines"? Oh, do you mean that Krak missiles have strength 8, compared to a Space Marine's toughness of 4?

 

The other things to consider are:

1.) A 2+ save is statisically twice as good as a 3+ save against AP4 and higher weapons.

 

Right, we're talking a 1/6 chance of death versus a 2/6 chance of death. (This intrigues me: why do we talk about chance of death rather than chance to save? If we talk about chance to save, the difference is 4/6 versus 5/6, no? So how do we say it's "twice as good"?)

 

2.) Most models with 2+ save also have some sort of invunerable save, which means that against AP 1 and 2 they will still get a save (in the largest 2+ armor save spam army that is likely to be a 3+ save.)

 

Looking at Blood Angels, running a 2+SV spam list is surely going to involve large numbers of Sanguinary Guard. The only models I can see that have an invulnerable save for the Blood Angels are those in terminator armour, unless I'm missing something pretty important?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Do you guys tend to play your armies your own way, or reacting to your opponent?

 

What I mean is, do you pick an army that will play a particular way and play it that way come hell or high water against anything you face? Or do you say to yourself "well, today I'm playing Imperial Guard, so I'll pack bodies into my list", or "well, today I'm playing Chaos Space Marines, so I'll pack elite units into my list"?

[breng77]

True with Blood angels it would be Sanguinary guard (which I don't think really work as a spam army, as they have no invul save.) I was thinking terminators as they would be highly durable.

 

You talk chance of failing because that is all that really matters when rolling a save. If I get shot 6 times with AP4 or higher, I will lose (on average) 2 guys with a 3+ save, and only 1 with a 2 + save. So guys die twice as frequently with a 3+ save. I think the really big reason for doing Sanguinary guard spam is the sheer number of Missiles that are in a lot of armies these days, and a missile is just not effective at killing a model with a 2 + save (a missile fired by a marine kils a model with a 2+ save about 9.2% of the time.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Problem with Terminators, of course, is that though they're highly durable they're also extremely slow. Also, they can't be taken as troops.

 

Hmmm....

[Darklighter]

Do you guys tend to play your armies your own way, or reacting to your opponent?

 

What I mean is, do you pick an army that will play a particular way and play it that way come hell or high water against anything you face? Or do you say to yourself "well, today I'm playing Imperial Guard, so I'll pack bodies into my list", or "well, today I'm playing Chaos Space Marines, so I'll pack elite units into my list"?

 

I think the only way to play a fair game of 40k is to make an all comers list that (In your own eyes) can take on any oponant. This takes alot of practice to get right but is much more fun in the long run.

 

If you go the route of he's playing this so I'll field that, then it will only ever come down to who has the biggest selection of troops. As if your oponant only has a 1500 point list with say 100 points of other stuff and you have 10k army you'll be able to out field him and maximise your list almost all of the time making game one sided and very unfair.

 

I also believe you get a better sence of what your army can do and it helps you learn it's strengths and weaknesess faster if you play all comers lists.

 

I know this is all just my opinion and I'm sure others will feel differently.

[breng77]

I agree that in general I don't list tailor (change my list for my opponent) that said depending on the opposing army I might play my army differently. Some Builds are very narrow in that they have 1 tactic, be it I sit back and shoot, or I run forward into the assault, some armies are more reactive, if my opponent is assaulty I will shoot, and vice versa.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Ok, interesting. I'm still trying to design my list - my first attempt left me with a rather nice-looking all-infantry DoA and a mild headache. How do you go about building a list? Is there a site out there that offers particularly handy advice?

 

So far I have:

 

1. Specificity. Know what each part of your army is designed to do and make sure that you have elements designed to take out GEQ, MEQ, TDA, MC, light transports and tanks.
   
2. Redundancy. Don't rely on one unit in your army to do a job that no other unit can do. If you lose that unit, you lose the game. Make sure that each unit is backed up by at least one other unit in case of misadventure.
   
3. Scoring units. Take them. You can't win some games without them and you don't want to find yourself brought short by a lack of units that can hold objectives.
   
4. Maneuverability. Some of our more durable units are also pretty slow. If you want to field units, make sure you can put them where you want them.
   
5. Bodies. Have them. If all of your 2,000 points are wrapped up in a single unit then you're likely to get mooshed pretty quickly. This ties in with redundancy - more bodies means less saturation of fire on any given unit, which means greater survivability.
   
6. Variety. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you put everything into close combat, one day you'll walk into a close-combat-specific army that does it better than you. Bring a range of options.
   

 

Anything I missed?

[breng77]

not particularly. However, when I build an army I rarely try to make sure that I can handle everything. I go for can I handle what I expect to play against, and can I at least not get auto-stomped by the rest of the stuff.

[Leonaides]

Ok, interesting. I'm still trying to design my list - my first attempt left me with a rather nice-looking all-infantry DoA and a mild headache. How do you go about building a list? Is there a site out there that offers particularly handy advice?

The obvious answer that springs to mind - here.

 

Internet advice tends to boil down to pointlessly specific advice that may be totally inappropriate, or generalisations and hypotheticals that may be too woolly to be of use.

You might like to peruse the army lists subforum in here, or look at the ones in some of the other forums for ideas (for example - if you fancy an infantry force, not a load of assault marines/DoA army then the Ultras lists might give you a few ideas for unit loadouts and/or combinations).

 

You go about choosing a list by comparing what models you have, tasks you believe you need them to do during a game and the points limit of the game. There really is no magic to it, other than practice. And the more you practice, the better you'll get at it.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Ok, interesting. I'm still trying to design my list - my first attempt left me with a rather nice-looking all-infantry DoA and a mild headache. How do you go about building a list? Is there a site out there that offers particularly handy advice?

The obvious answer that springs to mind - here.

 

Internet advice tends to boil down to pointlessly specific advice that may be totally inappropriate, or generalisations and hypotheticals that may be too woolly to be of use.

You might like to peruse the army lists subforum in here, or look at the ones in some of the other forums for ideas (for example - if you fancy an infantry force, not a load of assault marines/DoA army then the Ultras lists might give you a few ideas for unit loadouts and/or combinations).

 

You go about choosing a list by comparing what models you have, tasks you believe you need them to do during a game and the points limit of the game. There really is no magic to it, other than practice. And the more you practice, the better you'll get at it.

 

Yup, this is fair. My problem at the moment is lack of experience. I need to bite a bullet of some (non-explosive/-poisonous) kind and just start putting lists together. I've been a little too keen to hypothesise a 2,000-point list with the intention of building up to it. Would I be right in thinking you would advise to start with, say, a 500-point list with a long-term plan and expand it as I go?

[knife&fork]

Would I be right in thinking you would advise to start with, say, a 500-point list with a long-term plan and expand it as I go?

 

A good idea, but 500 is not enough for marines. You'll need to start with 750 or 1k to get a grip on how the codex works.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Would I be right in thinking you would advise to start with, say, a 500-point list with a long-term plan and expand it as I go?

 

A good idea, but 500 is not enough for marines. You'll need to start with 750 or 1k to get a grip on how the codex works.

 

Noted. However, I find when I look at smaller games that I would field a completely different type of army than in larger games.

 

It seems to me that the smaller the game, the more powerful a powerful unit becomes. So, a Land Raider in a 500-point game (Librarian, Assault Squad with meltagun in Land Raider Redeemer with multi-melta, Scout Squad totals 500 points) is rather a big deal for most any opponent to tackle - but a Land Raider in a 2,000-point game is just another big old tin that gets popped by the masses of melta. Similarly, a unit of Terminators.

 

What this means is that if I have a longer-term plan for how I want to develop my army, it becomes remarkably challenging to tie that in to smaller lists. I will, however, turn my focus to that now. As it stands, I have three boxes - one of Death Company, one of Sanguinary Guard and one of Assault Marines. Obviously I'm looking at a jump infantry-heavy list, so I'll start with that and see where I end up.

 

I don't mean to make this more complicated than it is and I realise I tend to overthink things. I also have problems with models dying. Call me weird, but I'm one of those who gets attached to individual models within units - even in computer games such as Warcraft or whatever RTS the kids play these days, I play to keep every man alive and get antsy if one dies. That translates into paroxysms of anxiety when I write lists as I try to work out how to make my units invulnerable. *Sigh*....

[knife&fork]

Noted. However, I find when I look at smaller games that I would field a completely different type of army than in larger games.

 

At 750 and 1k you can have the same "core" that will be fleshed out as your target list at 1750, 1850, or 2k.

 

Let's say I want to run a mech or hybrid list. At 1k I can fit a couple of razorback squads, mephiston as my HQ and some heavy support. That part stays the same as I go up in points, whatever I add along the way will not change the play style in a major way.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Noted. However, I find when I look at smaller games that I would field a completely different type of army than in larger games.

 

At 750 and 1k you can have the same "core" that will be fleshed out as your target list at 1750, 1850, or 2k.

 

Let's say I want to run a mech or hybrid list. At 1k I can fit a couple of razorback squads, mephiston as my HQ and some heavy support. That part stays the same as I go up in points, whatever I add along the way will not change the play style in a major way.

 

I'm trying to work that into a smaller list - I have a 750-point list in the appropriate forum at the moment. I'd genuinely appreciate feedback if you can spare the time!

[Leonaides]

Well, based on those boxes - get a Dante, make your squads up into 2 5-man RAS and a Sang Guard squad. and thats what you've got. The first thing I'd want to add would be a couple of Sang Priests to that (both with JP's - one to go with Dante and Sang Guard, one with one of the RAS). for starters.......

[JMac]

To be honest, you seem to have a solid understanding of how the game works and how to build a list. You can lurk and participate in these forums all you want, but experience is the best teacher. Advice from us fellow brothers will only take you so far.

 

Speaking of experience, one thing I've learned in my short time here on the forums is that everyone's play style is different and to coincide with that everyone's advice is different.

 

My best advice I can give, is if you have other models to play with, use them as proxies before you go out and by a bunch of models that may or may not work with you. Let's face it, this hobby is expensive and I can't tell you how many times I have "face palmed" bringing home a unit, assembling it, playing it, and failing it.

 

In summary, learn your play style before you unload your wad. Find what works for you, and capitalize off it. In the mean time, be open to the advice coming your way and try it out if you like the sound of it.

 

Hope I helped.

[juggernot]

Well I can say that I run Asaroth,a lib, 3 power weapon priests with jump packs, 4 10 assault squads with melta fists, 2 dev squads with 4 missile launchers and one dev squad with 1 missle and 3 las. and every time I have brought this to the table it has scared my opponent, all for except the IG turtle in the corner parking lot. but really a list that would work against that wouldn't really work against anything else. I run the squads around the line of sight of the devs to make them think twice about moving in alot of armor. this has worked for me, it might work for you