Rune Priest Ridcully Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Has anyone else found they don't like the new codex, atrotious fluff aside, because they find that the new "grey knights" just feel like reguler marines rather then you know, Grey knights and now just seem to be another space marine chapter, this is also combined with my experiences with my experiments with the new codex (have been alowed to borrow it to test out) and that is my opponent needs at least an extra 500pts for it not to just be a curb stomp, and if I want the challenge of the old one they need about 1000pts extra, it just seems after all the time of the challenge with the old codex, the army seems to have been changed beyond recognition and it's no longer the Grey knights I started years ago but just "Silver marines" now, then you bring in the almost comlete abomination that is wards desecration of the fluff, and well I'm not buying the new codex, but am now worried for when chaos and eldar get redone, I have already ad my Space wolves and my Grey knights lose their challenge due to army updates (though the wolves are still fun and not quite as powerfull) and it just seems a shame, is the old inquisitorial fan update project that was on here still going around? Has anyone else had this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Um. I encourage you to make use of periods. <_< That's a hell of a run-on. Moving on. I like the new Codex. It's got some interesting options in it that definitely differentiate it from my marine army in big ways (Dreadknights, Paladins, anti-Deep Striking, to name a few) and I like the new models; they're fun and (finally) plastic. I always wanted to run an army that was essentially multiple foot-slogging Vanguard units and, well, wouldn't you know, here it is: each unit has power weapons and I can custom configure them to take all sorts of load-outs. As for the fluff, I'm actually okay with the majority of it. Some of it is a bit over the top (like Draigo) but overall I enjoy it. Also, I've seen GK do well and go down just the same; they don't seem OP to me in the slightest. They're more or less on the level with the vanilla Marine dex and it's followers (SW, BA, IG, etc) in my opinion. Sorry to hear you're not enjoying them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE PORTCULLIS Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I have had very much a love hate relationship with the new codex. Having played the old one to death I LOVE STR 6 POWER WEAPONS more than I think I ever can str 4 basic force weapons. I loved the old Shrouding rules. I loved the fact you could always have 2 attacks on a Grey Knight when you got assaulted thanks to True Grit. The Grey Knight Strike squad feels worse to me and is much more in keeping with a vanilla marine. Having said that I'd pay 4 points more for a storm bolter, the aegis, hammerhand and a force weapon all-day-long. Problem for me with the new dex is that I'm, for now, still stuck in the same old rut. To win with Deamonhunters I used to roll with two LR Crusaders, fully tooled up each containing 8 GK Terminators brimming with extras - that was always competative - not a lot more frightening for an opponent than that. Thing is that's all I seem to win with at the moment, it's like nothing has changed, I try different stuff and loose. meh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Change is hard. :) If you don't enjoy playing the army, I can't think of a good reason to force you to continue. ;) Personally, I am not overly troubled by the fluff changes and expansions. They're right in line with the flavor of everything else that has come out since 5th edition hit the streets. Everything is over the top and turned up to 11. I'm able to go with it because I have always felt that 40K was a bit on the ridiculous side to begin with, and thus I have a difficult time discerning whether "more ridiculous" has any real meaning. :lol: It's a silly game, and always has been, if you ask me. And I say this as an admirer of it. :) As for the rules ... they are what they are. The old DH was always severely limited and only "competitive" in rarefied builds and when handled by seasoned tacticians. The new rules are not overpowering at all, they're directly in line with everything else that currently exists. If you're losing a lot all of a sudden, it just means you haven't adapted to the new army. It really is a NEW ARMY. Virtually nothing that was useful with the old DH codex has any relevance for the new GK codex. Unlearn what you have learned. If you're winning a lot all of a sudden, it just means your opponents haven't adapted to the new army. It really is a NEW ARMY. Hopefully your opponents won't be blaming GW for their losses, and instead they can learn that GK codex has plenty of exploitable holes. They just have to be willing to put some effort into improving their army lists and their tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I too have found games easier to win with this new Dex than with the previous; however, I've chalked that up to the fact that the old Dex with so difficult to win with that me play style has become one of always reducing errors and trying to make less errors than my opponent. The new Dex now let's us capitalize on our old play style, because it’s more in-line with the other Dexes. Not saying the old GK players are better players, just that it took a lot of skill with the right mind set to win with the old Dex, and that same skill/mind set can be use to win with pretty much any Dex you are use to playing. Even with the old Dex, if my opponent wasn't prepared, it was a cake walk to just face-roll them with half my army list. However, if my opponent was prepared, I'd be lucky enough to not get tabled and pull a draw. Things are still the same; we just now have better tools to turn a lost into a draw, and the draw into a win. A prepare opponent will still give us a run for our money, but the game is more fair now versus such an opponent. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I too have found games easier to win with this new Dex than with the previous; however, I've chalked that up to the fact that the old Dex with so difficult to win with that me play style has become one of always reducing errors and trying to make less errors than my opponent. The new Dex now let's us capitalize on our old play style, because it’s more in-line with the other Dexes. Not saying the old GK players are better players, just that it took a lot of skill with the right mind set to win with the old Dex, and that same skill/mind set can be use to win with pretty much any Dex you are use to playing. Quoted for truth. I don't know about anyone else, but I basically just made updated versions of my favorite lists from the old codex, and use them more-or-less the same. Because of that, I know the ins and outs of the army exceptionally well, only now it's simply more powerful. At the same time, it's far from an auto-win. When I play canny opponents, they still make me hurt for every little mistake I make. It's a finesse army, no doubt about it, and so each win is really dependent on the player as much as the list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Just to reiterate what i've said in other thread, my opponents don't like facing the new GK. They feel bad for me, as I've been the underdog for so long, and they wanted me to have a new shiny and fun dex, but the GK dex has turned out to be a monster. To hard to play against. too easy to win with. Maybe it's our for fun and non competitive nature, but it seems to me you *need* to trick yourself out to be a 'tourny' list to have any hope of facing the Grey Knights. Which might spell doom for your particular group. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Personally, I am not overly troubled by the fluff changes and expansions. They're right in line with the flavor of everything else that has come out since 5th edition hit the streets. Everything is over the top and turned up to 11. I'm able to go with it because I have always felt that 40K was a bit on the ridiculous side to begin with, and thus I have a difficult time discerning whether "more ridiculous" has any real meaning. :P It's a silly game, and always has been, if you ask me. And I say this as an admirer of it. :) Quoted for epic truth. I've never quite understood how people can manage to take the fluff seriously when it is blatantly not serious. I mean, look at the Orks and tell me with a straight face that you think the fluff is meant to be serious. You can't do it. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I like the new codex and have built a new army whereas before at most I only used GK as allies (rarely). The codex is strong but so are others so I don't feel about that particular aspect. Anything that makes me want to build a new army is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowThyEnemy Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 but jeffersonian, old grey knight players ARE better than new ones B) . and yes, it goes to 11.....11!!!! this post has contributed 0, perfect Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2795975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 I may try it again then, though with the latest price rises I'm not sure about buying the codex due to it's price, I tend to buy them for the fluff as well as the rules... may have a look on ebay, alsohow have people found there old armies (Ie lots and lots of halbeards) faring as I like my old metal models (I prefer the metal terminators) am undecided on the power armour, and what are techmarines like, I'm thingking of converting one using the old metal helmeted one with a servo arm as a base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2796119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 and that is my opponent needs at least an extra 500pts for it not to just be a curb stomp, and if I want the challenge of the old one they need about 1000pts extra, play more against IG . Virtually nothing that was useful with the old DH codex has any relevance for the new GK codex. because otherwise people wouldnt have to buy whole new armies . GW wants to sell models not games. also am not getting something if you go for a crow build you only need to buy crow rifleman and razorbacks , halabards and psycanons were always used with the old dex. I've never quite understood how people can manage to take the fluff seriously when it is blatantly not serious. I mean, look at the Orks and tell me with a straight face that you think the fluff is meant to be serious. You can't do it. which part ? they fluff is much better then most of the GK stuff and for all those who are not british the bastardisation of the language is not funny. w40k stoped being funny when 2ed ended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2796206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 40K isn't silly like "Ha! Ha!" It's silly like, "this is what a 10-yr-old thinks is kewl". ;) The game isn't serious, it's "grimdark". Which is quite a huge difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 40K isn't silly like "Ha! Ha!" It's silly like, "this is what a 10-yr-old thinks is kewl". ;) The game isn't serious, it's "grimdark". Which is quite a huge difference. In other words, this game is grimdark silly. That's a technical term. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sirrion Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think there's anything particularly overpowered in this codex. Everything is just really different. i've gotten alot of "well that always worked against other armies!" from opponenets. Grey Knights has really changed how folks have to think about writing lists for a all-comers or competitive environment. Along comes a codex able to build competitive lists without vehicles and full of psychic powers and the sky is falling. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm glad I actually have build options with the new codex, the old one seemed pretty one-trick. Also, you might need some better opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 This codex is just going through the usual honeymoon period at the moment. As such, players need time for rules to sink and the battle experience to become wary of how to approach matches with GKs. Reading many of the recent batreps this still sounds like it hasn't thoroughly happened yet, but in time I'm sure more-and-more opponents will drop their prejudices, pick the codex apart and become more adept at playing us. Has anyone else found they don't like the new codex, atrocious fluff aside, because they find that the new "grey knights" just feel like reguler marines rather then you know, Grey knights and now just seem to be another space marine chapter, this is also combined with my experiences with my experiments with the new codex (have been alowed to borrow it to test out) and that is my opponent needs at least an extra 500pts for it not to just be a curb stomp, and if I want the challenge of the old one they need about 1000pts extra, it just seems after all the time of the challenge with the old codex, the army seems to have been changed beyond recognition and it's no longer the Grey knights I started years ago but just "Silver marines" now, then you bring in the almost comlete abomination that is wards desecration of the fluff, and well I'm not buying the new codex, but am now worried for when chaos and eldar get redone, I have already ad my Space wolves and my Grey knights lose their challenge due to army updates (though the wolves are still fun and not quite as powerful) and it just seems a shame, is the old inquisitorial fan update project that was on here still going around? Has anyone else had this? Sure some of the changes have been disappointing. Reading around on some of the other forums a few players started picking the problem apart regarding the 'elite' stance. They came up with a conclusion I can agree with. WS5 was a default characteristic that physically separated the chapter from others at a basic level beforehand. It also proved Grey Knights weren't just reliant on psychic powers and shiny tech alone to stamp down the 'elite' tag. While there are valid reasons to dislike other changes I'm not really miffed about the loss of S6, which was replaced by the force weapons and HH, and True-Grit/2A would now make our troops too expensive (see, falchions). But with a little juggling about on upping the WS, the old profile-line could be retained. Apparently though, this new, basic marine profile approach was intentional on GWs behalf, according to some of the early interviews with the designers. If true I don't expect we'll see the return of that old profile line again. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the GKs became more of a shooting specialist army in future editions. Personally, I prefer the grit of an assault, so it's not surprising that I'm now looking towards the next BT release to replace this feeling of disappointment. As for the project you mentioned, check out my signature. To be honest it's gone very quiet at the moment, no doubt because of the release of the new codex. Project leader 7eal is also currently compiling the mountain of discussion work to put out the first draft. That doesn't mean that the project has been closed. It's still very much open to new suggestions, so feel free to read through the threads and pass on some of your own ideas. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceasarian Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Following my first read through of the codex I set the book down, and nearly sold off my GK's. I initially hated the new codex. I was so used to having one or two choices, the idea that I now had the ability/ was forced to make army list decisions was all but unthinkable at the time. Luckily I took the time to read through the codex a second time and I found that I was wrong with my initial sentiment. As it has been previously stated on this thread- change is a bit difficult, but once you get in a bit of experience with the book things will start to click and fall into place. Personally I really like this new codex. With the last codex I ran allot of Land Raiders. I used these tanks to protect my PAGK er...GKSS, and to knock out enemy transports from a distance. This allowed me to move the GK's in position and shoot down whatever happened to be inside, using their speed to outmaneuver my opponent. With this new codex that strategy became even more viable as the tools have gotten far better to enact this strategy. Instead of taking Land Raiders you can now take Rhinos and Razorbacks. Instead of relying on two Lascannon shots you now have Psybolt Dreads & Storm Ravens. Newer and better options allow for new play-styles and combinations. The Grey Knight book, much like the Tyranid codex, as well as other newer books seems to rely on units working together to multiple their effectiveness. Getting this correct will take a few games, and will of course account for some losses. For example following the new book being released I have gotten in about 7 games of 40k in at various points levels. I have won one of these, and tied four of them. I have had more fun with these past seven games than I have had with the previous codex. Getting the synergy down and trying new things will take a while, just look at it in a positive way and try to improve your own strategies and lists as you continue. -Cease Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The Grey Knight book, much like the Tyranid codex, as well as other newer books seems to rely on units working together to multiple their effectiveness. Getting this correct will take a few games, and will of course account for some losses. show me a nid build that works like a crow razor spam . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2798838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The Grey Knight book, much like the Tyranid codex, as well as other newer books seems to rely on units working together to multiple their effectiveness. Getting this correct will take a few games, and will of course account for some losses. show me a nid build that works like a crow razor spam . Hard to do, seeing as Tyranids don't get vehicles or psycannons. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2799138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The Grey Knight book, much like the Tyranid codex, as well as other newer books seems to rely on units working together to multiple their effectiveness. Getting this correct will take a few games, and will of course account for some losses. show me a nid build that works like a crow razor spam . Hard to do, seeing as Tyranids don't get vehicles or psycannons. :P Now if you wanted one that was as effective as Crow Razor Spam.... Thats not a problem. Since its not all that effective against a good opponent. Has anyone else found they don't like the new codex, atrotious fluff aside, because they find that the new "grey knights" just feel like reguler marines rather then you know, Grey knights and now just seem to be another space marine chapter, this is also combined with my experiences with my experiments with the new codex (have been alowed to borrow it to test out) and that is my opponent needs at least an extra 500pts for it not to just be a curb stomp, and if I want the challenge of the old one they need about 1000pts extra, it just seems after all the time of the challenge with the old codex, the army seems to have been changed beyond recognition and it's no longer the Grey knights I started years ago but just "Silver marines" now, then you bring in the almost comlete abomination that is wards desecration of the fluff, and well I'm not buying the new codex, but am now worried for when chaos and eldar get redone, I have already ad my Space wolves and my Grey knights lose their challenge due to army updates (though the wolves are still fun and not quite as powerfull) and it just seems a shame, is the old inquisitorial fan update project that was on here still going around? Has anyone else had this? As for this... you need some of those good opponents. Taking down GKs isnt hard with Eldar or DE, and Im finding shooty SWs are fairing just fine- about the same as against blood angels really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2799143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew55 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I play Dark Angels myself and i cannot beat the GK's no matter what list i use. I have 4k company and 3k deathwing and every time i play grey knights, i find that i am outnumbered by far better models. for me to field a tactical squad with no upgrades, i pay 165 points. for grey knights it is around 200 points. this may sound like i have an advantage but that extra 35 points gets a GK play 10 force power weapons, 10 storm bolters and loads of shiny powers. that works out around 3 points per model for a storm bolter and a power weapon (which is better than a power weapon) and cool powers. GK's vehicles are like 5 points more expensive, but that gives them a power which means they can discount crew stunned and shaken results, i pay 15 points for extra armour which isn't as good as fortitude. GK's dreadnoughts (and probably other vehicles) can pay 5 points to make assault cannons STR7 i can get a dozer blade for 5 points! The problem i am finding is that GKs pay 3 - 10 times less in points for things that are better than anything i can buy. Until i get a new codex (probably in about 5 - 9 years) i am probably going to have to just simply not play grey knights, they can shoot better than anything i can field (20 points for STR 5 storm bolters makes this even worse) and in close combat i have no hope, as GK's are pretty much getting nemesis force weapons for 1 point per model. I work this out as GK's paying 1 point for a storm bolter, 1 point for phsycic powers and 1 point for nemesis force weapon. i pay 15 points for a power weapon and i can only have 1 in a tactical squad. You even get better powerfists (nemesis demonhammers) for 10 points, i pay 25 for a powerfist. anyone else have problems like this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2800076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Relax. You'll obviously be getting a WD codex artical sometime next year! ;) SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2800770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 for me to field a tactical squad with no upgrades, i pay 165 points. for grey knights it is around 200 points. then dont try to play green wing because it sucks or if you do use the sm dex . Want to play DA spam cyclons TH/SS termis. spam bikers with scoring landspeeders for late turn objective grabs . Thats not a problem. Since its not all that effective against a good opponent. your opinion mage , but then again you claim that razor builds are not viable , yet they still score high on main land europe tournaments. Or by good do you mean playing SW ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2800819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I play Dark Angels myself and i cannot beat the GK's no matter what list i use.... anyone else have problems like this? Funny, I remember when the GK Codex first came out it sounded like Deathwing Players couldn't wait to brag about how easy we were to beat. Perhaps you should give those guys a call... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232420-no-challenge-it-is-too-easy/#findComment-2801261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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