Jaws of the wolf

[Timbo]

does it need LOS ?

 

playing a game so asap brothers

[Max_Dammit]

does it need LOS ?

 

playing a game so asap brothers

Only to the first model it hits

[Timbo]

what if can see a modlebut it would hit before that ??????

[Grimtooth]

what if can see a modlebut it would hit before that ??????

 

Explain please.

[Max_Dammit]

No you can't hit a model that is in front of the model you aim for if you have no LoS I even think that the JotWW will not go off if that's the case

[Xeenos]

I think he means if he can see the Demon Prince, but hits the Chaos Marine that is between your RP and the DP. As far as i know you point the spell at a figure and draw a line 24" long, everything along that line, in front of or behind the target gets hit.

[Lumdin]

The first model hit is your target.

 

So you need following to make it a vaild target - LOS, target not in combat and not a friendly model.

 

This is my understanding of how the power works.

 

After that any other model hit afterwards by the line can be affected (IE friendly model or models in combat)

 

Thanks

[Max_Dammit]

Right so Xeenos is wrong in my understanding, you MUST have LoS to the first model you hit or there is no shooting (you cant make the rules stated in the powers rules)

[HsojVvad]

Right so Xeenos is wrong in my understanding, you MUST have LoS to the first model you hit or there is no shooting (you cant make the rules stated in the powers rules)

What you mean there is no shooting? Isn't it a Psychic Shooting Attack? So there for you need to roll to hit since it doesn't say it's an automatic hit?

 

I am new to the rules, (been modelling and collecting really slowly but just started playing again so don't know the rules to well) and never used psychic powers much so not sure how they work. From reading the BRB and FAQs you need to still roll to hit.

[Wulfebane]

What you mean there is no shooting? Isn't it a Psychic Shooting Attack? So there for you need to roll to hit since it doesn't say it's an automatic hit?

 

 

Resolved here. It's a dead post now, with good reason, so make sure to read it all before coming back into this thread.

[HsojVvad]

What you mean there is no shooting? Isn't it a Psychic Shooting Attack? So there for you need to roll to hit since it doesn't say it's an automatic hit?

 

 

Resolved here. It's a dead post now, with good reason, so make sure to read it all before coming back into this thread.

Thank you for the link reading it now.

[elithren]

Jaws specifically says how it affects units and that the line goes out 24" and then anything it touches takes the test. We already had a long thread about whether or not Jaws needs to roll to hit and the result was no.

[HsojVvad]

I have read the thread and the result is not a no because nobody proved anything. I will not rehash anything since it got to a heated debate and not many people were acknowladging what the other person was saying, so I will say no more. All I asked for understanding but nothing was proven one way or the other.

 

Sorry for asking.

[Wulfebane]

As with most things in the Fang, it came to a majority ruling. Most people (in particular, the Grey Beards here at the Fang) sided with "No" and those that disagreed seemingly kept their peace for the most part. Make your own decision and spread it through your local store if you wish.

[Grey Mage]

The arguments basicly fell into three camps:

 

1) All psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit. Period.

 

2) Its not possible to roll to hit when you dont have a target, order of operations prevents it.

 

3) But its just a line, not real shooting.

 

Obviously, I was/am a major proponent or argument 2, simply because its the only one I see fitting RAW.

[dswanick]

The arguments basicly fell into three camps:

 

1) All psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit. Period.

 

2) Its not possible to roll to hit when you dont have a target, order of operations prevents it.

 

3) But its just a line, not real shooting.

 

Obviously, I was/am a major proponent or argument 2, simply because its the only one I see fitting RAW.

Actually aren't #2 & #3 variations on the same argument - "It's not a standard Psychic Shooting attack, it's an exception which therefore follows it's own rules. The FAQ only applies to standard Psychic Shooting attacks."?

[Grey Mage]

The way i read it, some people had the idea that since it was a shaped area it didnt require a roll to hit, wich is different in that there are shaped attacks that require a roll to hit, or scatter, etc in the game- but some of them, ie flamer templates, dont. *shrugs*

[HsojVvad]

The arguments basicly fell into three camps:

 

1) All psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit. Period.

 

2) Its not possible to roll to hit when you dont have a target, order of operations prevents it.

 

3) But its just a line, not real shooting.

 

Obviously, I was/am a major proponent or argument 2, simply because its the only one I see fitting RAW.

 

 

The arguments basicly fell into three camps:

 

1) All psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit. Period.

 

2) Its not possible to roll to hit when you dont have a target, order of operations prevents it.

 

3) But its just a line, not real shooting.

 

Obviously, I was/am a major proponent or argument 2, simply because its the only one I see fitting RAW.

Actually aren't #2 & #3 variations on the same argument - "It's not a standard Psychic Shooting attack, it's an exception which therefore follows it's own rules. The FAQ only applies to standard Psychic Shooting attacks."?

Please bear with me, this is interesting and new things I never considered before. But where is this "you don't have a target"? I thought for JotWW the "target" is the first mini.

 

The other thing I do not understand as well, is since Space Wolves came after the Tyranid Codex, and the Tyranid codex says that psychic shooting attacks hit automatically, there is no saying automatically hit in the SW codex.

 

Don't forget I am a newbie so please correct me where I erre.

 

To shoot say a bolter, you need to pick a target.

determine distance

roll to hit

determine wounds

 

So now instead of firing a bolter you fire a psychic shooting attack since you can only do one or the other.

So for Jaw's you have to pick a target. (I believe the SW FAQ says something the first mini is the "target".

Now you have to cast the power. If failed don't bother with the rest of the steps, if successfull keep going.

Since it's a psychic shooting attack, you have to roll to hit. (now this is where I am confused, because a) it says so in the BRB FAQ 1.3 and B) why was this never done before? Did people just play it wrong all this time?)

no for determining rules if "hit" you draw a straight line from caster to the first (target) mini 24" and anything after that is also has to take an Initiative test.

 

If the first (target) mini is not "hit" then no line is drawn.

 

So where in the BRB or FAQs or codex say that you don't have to roll to hit. As I was told numerous times espically in the SW forums about Spirit Leech you have to be told what you can do not what you can't do. So since we are told you have to roll to hit (pg 50 BRB) for psychic shooting attacks, where does it say you don't have too?

 

Again in the Tyranid codex it says PSA are automatic hits so no need to roll.

 

So where am I erring in this GW logic of thinking then? I just wish all GW rules are all on one page instead of having to flip through the book to get all the answers.

[Wulfebane]

Please bear with me, this is interesting and new things I never considered before. But where is this "you don't have a target"? I thought for JotWW the "target" is the first mini.

 

Just by asking this question tells me you didn't read the thread that was linked regarding this situation. Either that or you skimmed it or something because all your other questions were addressed there as well. Whether those questions were the answers you want or approve of are another matter, but I'm fairly certain Grey Mage answered the "target" confusion where most people agreed.

 

I'm not trying to be mean or rude, but this will quickly spiral into another circular debate as the previous thread did and I'd rather not see it happen again.

[Grey Mage]

To shoot say a bolter, you need to pick a target.

determine distance

roll to hit

determine wounds

 

So now instead of firing a bolter you fire a psychic shooting attack since you can only do one or the other.

So for Jaw's you have to pick a target. (I believe the SW FAQ says something the first mini is the "target".

Thats your problem, because for jaws you dont have to pick a target. Instead, the first model hit becomes the target- as per the SW FAQ.

[Tsuro]

Please bear with me, this is interesting and new things I never considered before. But where is this "you don't have a target"? I thought for JotWW the "target" is the first mini.

 

The "target" of JOTWW is considered to be the first model you hit.

 

Since you don't have a target until after you've hit, how could you then roll 'to hit' that target? You've already done so, otherwise there'd be no target.

Also, what happens if you miss? You didn't hit him, ergo he wasn't the target and as such you weren't aiming at him in the first place. So why did you roll? The only way it makes sense is without rolling at all.

[Blacksad]

does the faq say the first model hit "counts as" your target? in the other thread there were some people going on an on about the "counts as" for templates... seems fair to throw this distinction in too ;)

[elithren]

And it begins again.......

[Grey Mage]

does the faq say the first model hit "counts as" your target? in the other thread there were some people going on an on about the "counts as" for templates... seems fair to throw this distinction in too :P

Just so its clear, this is on pg. 2 of the FAQ, right hand column, about 2/3 way down.

 

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?

Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,

impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he

is treated as the target model; the power just happens to

hit everybody else on its way through!

 

So as you can see a model must be affected to be 'treated as the target model'.

[Grimtooth]

To the person that keeps asking why;

 

The BRB tells you that exceptions to general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes. There is no standard set for what constitutes a codex exception. People point out, "automatically" hits time and time again as the standard, but do so without zero rules to back it up.

 

Murderous Hurricane flat out tells you that the target unit takes 3d6 hits. Blood Lance flat out tells you that models in the path are hit. Jaws flat out tells you that anything the line touches takes an iniatitve test. These are prime examples that show how a psychic shooting attack operates as an exception the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

 

The new tactic for those opposed is to now say that Blood Lance and Jaws need a roll to hit to accurately, "place the line". So now it is a "roll to place" which they have switched to arguing despite both rules specifically telling you how to place the line.

 

The new BRB faq does not blanket all psychic shooting attacks. If the codex tells you how to employ a psychic shooting attack, you follow the codex rules, not the BRB. Simple as that.