Jaws of the wolf

[Rain Finale]

To the person that keeps asking why;

 

The BRB tells you that exceptions to general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes. There is no standard set for what constitutes a codex exception. People point out, "automatically" hits time and time again as the standard, but do so without zero rules to back it up.

 

Murderous Hurricane flat out tells you that the target unit takes 3d6 hits.

 

Yet the SW FAQ implies a roll to hit because it can miss. I've heard people say that treated as a weapon, it can automatically miss by being out of it's 18" range. If you agree that this is the case and that the only way for MH to miss is to be out of range, would you agree that MH is, in effect, an unlimited range effect attack like LL but w/out wounds or rolls to hit considering the FAQ says the unit is affected by MH even if it fails to hit?

[Grey Mage]

*Blinks*

 

Thats absurd. A flamer can miss by being out of range, but there sure as heck isnt a roll to hit.

 

edit: and before you say oh but its just a number of hits, check the rules for firing a flamer into a fire point- d6 automatic hits. Still no roll to hit, but it can miss by not reaching the target- ie not being in range.

[Maximus-92]

company commmander, company standard, melta gun vet and lascannon, one jaws, was awesome!

[Toasterfree]

To the person that keeps asking why;

 

The BRB tells you that exceptions to general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes. There is no standard set for what constitutes a codex exception. People point out, "automatically" hits time and time again as the standard, but do so without zero rules to back it up.

 

Murderous Hurricane flat out tells you that the target unit takes 3d6 hits.

 

Yet the SW FAQ implies a roll to hit because it can miss. I've heard people say that treated as a weapon, it can automatically miss by being out of it's 18" range. If you agree that this is the case and that the only way for MH to miss is to be out of range, would you agree that MH is, in effect, an unlimited range effect attack like LL but w/out wounds or rolls to hit considering the FAQ says the unit is affected by MH even if it fails to hit?

if it says HITS they hit. if they are out of range, it just doesnt hit. ITS NOT IN RANGE!

[Rain Finale]

*Blinks*

 

Thats absurd. A flamer can miss by being out of range, but there sure as heck isnt a roll to hit.

 

edit: and before you say oh but its just a number of hits, check the rules for firing a flamer into a fire point- d6 automatic hits. Still no roll to hit, but it can miss by not reaching the target- ie not being in range.

 

Hmm? I'm not sure what makes you certain I'd argue "oh but its just a number of hits". What you say makes sense to me and, in fact, is in agreement with what I said regarding a weapon missing by not being in range. I'm not sure where flamer rules come into play in this discussion.

 

To be clear I understand you, regardless of whether or not you like it or if it was intended this way, by our reasoning of weapons missing by being out of range, MH's effect still works outside of 18" just not the 3D6 hits?

 

 

 

@Toasterfree

 

I believe you are correct. And if it doesn't hit, it misses. Even if it misses, target unit still treats all terrain as difficult and dangerous as per:

 

"Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound."

 

*underlined key parts

[Toasterfree]

its the whole to hit question. flamer you dont roll to hit. you place the template over the unit and that many models GET HIT.

 

think of JoWW as a "special" flamer template. its just a line 24 inches long. The first model to get hit with it is your target, and DUH! just like a flamer, you would have to be able to see it. Do you roll to hit when you place a flamer down? NO! Why would you do it with a "special" flamer template? Wee todd did if you think that you would do something like that. It causes HITs much like MH, BL, holocaust. It's a special PSA (not public service announcement).

 

Just sayin.

[Rain Finale]

its the whole to hit question. flamer you dont roll to hit. you place the template over the unit and that many models GET HIT.

 

think of JoWW as a "special" flamer template. its just a line 24 inches long. The first model to get hit with it is your target, and DUH! just like a flamer, you would have to be able to see it. Do you roll to hit when you place a flamer down? NO! Why would you do it with a "special" flamer template? Wee todd did if you think that you would do something like that. It causes HITs much like MH, BL, holocaust. It's a special PSA (not public service announcement).

 

Just sayin.

 

I do not roll to hit when placing a flamer because (p29) "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model. Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."

 

Anyway, I see how the Jaws line is being related to the template rules despite there being nothing in the Codex or FAQ that tells you to follow template rules. However, if we play Jaws by the (p29) template rules, specifically the "Instead of rolling to hit" clause which is omitted in the Codex, why then do we also play it allowing the line to be placed over friendly models when "without touching friendly models" clause is also omitted from the Codex? Because its to our benefit and best interest as SW players. We want to interpret it to be however it benefits us the most even if it means picking and choosing which rules of similar weapons to follow.

 

The Codex doesn't say you don't have to roll, neither does it say the line can't touch friendly models. Don't ignore "instead of rolling to hit" clause for template weapons but go ahead and ignore "without touching any friendly models" clause?

 

This is why I don't like the template analogy argument.

[Toasterfree]

I would say that since JoWW doesnt exclude friendly models from the test it doesnt matter. Flamers cannot intentionally hurt friendlies. JoWW may ACCIDENTALLY hurt friendlies. The template is the closest thing to JoWW therefore it carries that kind of example on how to shoot it. If it was more like a boltgun (if a bolt gun fired through other people and there were rules on it) then we would be talking a different story

[Grimtooth]

I seriously cannot deal with this argument anymore.

 

On two forums the same attempt at pigeonholing the BRB FAQ into every psychic shooting attack, DESPITE the ruling on page 50, first paragraph which specifically instructs you that codex exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks exist.

 

Simply put;

 

Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? Yes.

 

Do ALL psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? No.

 

Why? Because exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes.

 

This isn't a matter of blanket statement all psychic shooting attacks and then arbitrarily finding a way to insert a roll to hit in their rules. You look at each individual psychic shooting attack rule and determine if it needs a to hit roll based upon the rule as it is written.

 

Living Lightning: Cannot possibly be employed at all without the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, to include needing a to hit roll.

 

JotWW: Can be employed exactly as written per the codex.

[Grey Mage]

*Blinks*

 

Thats absurd. A flamer can miss by being out of range, but there sure as heck isnt a roll to hit.

 

edit: and before you say oh but its just a number of hits, check the rules for firing a flamer into a fire point- d6 automatic hits. Still no roll to hit, but it can miss by not reaching the target- ie not being in range.

 

Hmm? I'm not sure what makes you certain I'd argue "oh but its just a number of hits". What you say makes sense to me and, in fact, is in agreement with what I said regarding a weapon missing by not being in range. I'm not sure where flamer rules come into play in this discussion.

 

To be clear I understand you, regardless of whether or not you like it or if it was intended this way, by our reasoning of weapons missing by being out of range, MH's effect still works outside of 18" just not the 3D6 hits?

Nah- because the rules for being out of range are 'automatically misses' wich cancels out 'automatically hits' eh?

[JamesI]

Living Lightning: Cannot possibly be employed at all without the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, to include needing a to hit roll.

 

JotWW: Can be employed exactly as written per the codex.

Absolutely.

 

Jaws does not need to hit. Murderous Hurricane, as much as I wish it needed to roll to hit, does not need to roll to hit.

[Toasterfree]

*Blinks*

 

Thats absurd. A flamer can miss by being out of range, but there sure as heck isnt a roll to hit.

 

edit: and before you say oh but its just a number of hits, check the rules for firing a flamer into a fire point- d6 automatic hits. Still no roll to hit, but it can miss by not reaching the target- ie not being in range.

 

Hmm? I'm not sure what makes you certain I'd argue "oh but its just a number of hits". What you say makes sense to me and, in fact, is in agreement with what I said regarding a weapon missing by not being in range. I'm not sure where flamer rules come into play in this discussion.

 

To be clear I understand you, regardless of whether or not you like it or if it was intended this way, by our reasoning of weapons missing by being out of range, MH's effect still works outside of 18" just not the 3D6 hits?

Nah- because the rules for being out of range are 'automatically misses' wich cancels out 'automatically hits' eh?

yes it does, they just dont take any wounds.

[eyeslikethunder]

Totally with james and BR

 

on this one

[Toasterfree]

i think this needs a locky locky

[Wulfebane]

Why won't you die!?

[Toasterfree]

Why won't you die!?

cause people can't read

[Rain Finale]

Ok so, jaws is still agree-to-disagree, MH everyone is cool with no roll to hit but technically unlimited range terrain effect (because of auto miss outside of range) even if it may seem bogus. Gotcha.

 

I have closure on this then.

 

 

Edit: @ grey mage

 

Oh, I understand where your "*blinks* that's absurd. A flamer can miss by being out of range but you don't roll to hit" comment came from. You thought I was saying that because it can miss by being out of range, it must roll to hit. No, I meant that people on your side of the argument (no roll to hit) when presented with the question of "well then how can MH miss like the faq says if you don't roll to hit?" say "it can miss by being out of range". That is what opened the door to the unlimited range terrain effect that I posed to you.

 

Misunderstanding, heh.

[Toasterfree]

Ok so, jaws is still agree-to-disagree, MH everyone is cool with no roll to hit but technically unlimited range terrain effect (because of auto miss outside of range) even if it may seem bogus. Gotcha.

 

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound