Chaplain's or Librarians?

[Valdenaar]

Hellow there brothers and sisters of the B&C. I require your expert opinions to help build my force.

 

I'm taking a secondary commander to back up my Captain in battle but I'm stuck as to what to choose.

 

Currently I'm thinking of taking a Librarian, Epistolary, Termie Armour and Storm-Bolter with the Avenger and Quickening Psy Pwrs.

 

However I'm unsure as to instead take a Chaplain because they can bolster your force in other ways though of course you lose the psychic powers.

 

So any advice, tips, etc would be appreciated to resolve my dilemna.

 

Cheers. :tu:

[Koremu]

What are you planning to use the IC in combination with? Both Charlies and Libbys are support characters, most of what they do is based on who they work alongside.

[sofacoin]

Speaking from opinion based on experience...

Chaplains are the worst non-special character HQ choice in the Vanilla codex; they benefit one unit in a minor way and do little on their own.

Librarians, though, are easily some of the best, outclassing many of the special characters, and arguably captains; epistolaries are overcosted (50 points for an extra power when I can get a whole other librarian for 50 more?), and the best powers are Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, and Avenger-- with the worst being Smite, Quickening and Might of Ancients.

 

Terminator Armour makes Vortex of Doom more useful, but Avenger's still solid. Librarians aren't meant to be killy, but support your killy; in combat, he'll get killed pretty quickly-- so keep him shooty and either in a rhino with a squad, on a bike in a squad, or in terminator armour... with a squad.

 

So, I'd advise you to take a Terminator armoured librarian, with a squad full of other terminators, and either Gate of Infinity if he's walking or Null Zone if he's in a Land Raider... or maybe if he's walking, anyway. Null Zone's that amazing!

If you really want to, it won't do anything bad to make him an Epistolary-- but realize it is an awful lot of points!

[Valdenaar]

Well the Librarian is going to be assigned to a Termy Squad.

 

The Chaplain will probably go in with my assault squad so i'll give him a jump pack.

[Valdenaar]

Useful info sofacoin. Cheers.

[thade]

A smattering of thoughts to contribute:

 

A Chaplain with an assault squad is vicious; I've used a vanilla jump team and a jump chaplain to deal with TH/SS terminators (with substantial losses to the unit, but choosing to flee - they can't sweeping advance - and charging back in means more rerollable attacks). Chaplains come with a nice 4++ to boot. Not to mention that Cassius is probably the best bang-for-your-buck special character in the vanilla Dex. He's cheap, T6 and has built-in FNP. He's *mean*.

 

If you're going to take a Librarian, I recommend giving him a Storm Shield; just a personal preference of mine, but a 3++ is nice for keeping that psychic hood on the table...especially if you're going to be firing Vortex each turn (he won't need the storm bolter). Not sure I'd stand by the Librarian being an Epistolary. The number of times you'll use two powers in one turn (especially Quickening and Avenger) probably won't be enough to justify the steep upgrade cost. An exception might be something like Gate of Infinity and Vortex, which you can teleport/shoot once a turn with (provided your storm shield weathers the Perils and self-vortex that could happen with all those tests ;) ).

 

EDIT: I should not that I'm not suggesting Chaplain + Assault team is the way to deal with hammernators every time; just an example of how hard they hit. They'll easily cripple and wipe a non-combat oriented unit.

[DarkGuard]

Chaplains are more focussed, Libbys are more universal. You can pretty much put a Libby in any squad. It doesn't have to be Terminator armour and storm shield in a Terminator squad, but rather plain power armour with some Sternguard. Or your Captain's Command squad. Or even give it a jump pack and run it with Assault Marines and force dome or something.

 

Chaplains are focussed on melee, that's what they do, and they don't do it well. They're handy for re-rolls on the charge, but afterwards a Captain would be more useful. This means that a Chaplain needs to be in an assault unit of some type, and therefore won't flourish in a unit like Sternguard, so keep that in mind.

 

In general, I'd choose the Libby.

[sofacoin]

If you're going to take a Librarian, I recommend giving him a Storm Shield; just a personal preference of mine, but a 3++ is nice for keeping that psychic hood on the table...especially if you're going to be firing Vortex each turn (he won't need the storm bolter). Not sure I'd stand by the Librarian being an Epistolary. The number of times you'll use two powers in one turn (especially Quickening and Avenger) probably won't be enough to justify the steep upgrade cost. An exception might be something like Gate of Infinity and Vortex, which you can teleport/shoot once a turn with (provided your storm shield weathers the Perils and self-vortex that could happen with all those tests ;) ).

I'll 100% agree on the shield; the Librarian doesn't get a 4++ as standard- unlike Captains and Chaplains- and while the 5++ from his Terminator armour will suffice, it's not godly... especially when a storm shield is 200% as effective!

[Koremu]

Not to mention that Cassius is probably the best bang-for-your-buck special character in the vanilla Dex. He's cheap, T6 and has built-in FNP. He's *mean*.

 

The ability to roll FNP against Krak Missiles is worth it just for the look on your opponents face the first time you do it.

 

Cassius in a Land Raider with 10 Vanguard is a perfect way of reminding people that striking at Init 1 *is* a disadvantage.

[sofacoin]

Not to mention that Cassius is probably the best bang-for-your-buck special character in the vanilla Dex. He's cheap, T6 and has built-in FNP. He's *mean*.

 

The ability to roll FNP against Krak Missiles is worth it just for the look on your opponents face the first time you do it.

 

Cassius in a Land Raider with 10 Vanguard is a perfect way of reminding people that striking at Init 1 *is* a disadvantage.

 

If perfect weighs in at around 600 points, I'll stick with imperfect, thanks!

[Koremu]

Not to mention that Cassius is probably the best bang-for-your-buck special character in the vanilla Dex. He's cheap, T6 and has built-in FNP. He's *mean*.

 

The ability to roll FNP against Krak Missiles is worth it just for the look on your opponents face the first time you do it.

 

Cassius in a Land Raider with 10 Vanguard is a perfect way of reminding people that striking at Init 1 *is* a disadvantage.

 

If perfect weighs in at around 600 points, I'll stick with imperfect, thanks!

Closer to 700, once it has enough upgrades to make it worthwhile. Does come with a Land Raider though :P

[fredbob524]

a crusader with 5 th/22 termies extra armor and a multimelta is like 475, not even a comparison

[Koremu]

They're 600 themselves once they have a charlie included

[fredbob524]

with the survivability of stormshields and 2+ armors as well as minimum power weps?

[thade]

I'm with Koremu here. Speaking from experince, that tricked out Vanguard, played right, will trash more than just the hammernators. Fill out your 1500+ points with tacticals carting melta tech and I think you'll have a good time with it.

 

Not the place for hammers vs vanguard tho. :D

 

It really bugs me that the librarian vanilla has no Invuln, but I understand why they did it. TDA and powers make him a contender in CC anyway.

[Demoulius]

may i make an observation? the OP has a blood raven picture :) shouldnt the fluffy choice be a librarian? ^_^

[maturin]

Valendaar - I'd say you should base your choice on what roles you expect your termie squad and assault squads to take, and which one needs the buff in abilities more. Do you expect your termies (waht kind? how are they being delivered?) to be the target of a lot of psychic powers, or need anti-MEQ firepower? Or are you relying on your assault squad (half/full squad? equipment loadout?) to be a key counter-assault unit, one that could use a lot more CC reliability and killyness?

 

Consider using them both, and dropping the captain! All are viable options - it just depends on what you think your army needs.

[thade]

may i make an observation? the OP has a blood raven picture :) shouldnt the fluffy choice be a librarian? ^_^

While I don't disagree with you based on theme, I must disagree. The Chaplain by *far* had some of the best dialogue in DoW. ;)

 

"Only at war are we truly faithful!"

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Chaplains are the worst non-special character HQ choice in the Vanilla codex; they benefit one unit in a minor way and do little on their own.

 

Im not making a specific target at you here! But I see this comment a lot, but I pose the question:

 

What is it that Chapter Masters and Captains benefit? (Biker captains aside as they actually benefit a biker army)

 

They both add squad options, but thats about it, they have no rules individually to buff a unit/s unless its a SC

 

 

 

Really chaplains are a weak character, but what they do to a melee squad isnt bad! And even libbys don't affect the ENTIRE field, they usually affect 1 unit at a time. Though libbys get an expanded bag of tricks they do lose out on some gear! Captains buff nothing and make do with a decent statline, yet many don't question their effectiveness. Am I missing something in this analysis?

 

Generally a Libby is the better all rounder and is darn useful for psychic defence if nothing else, but if you rely on a melee squad a chaplain is a good investment...

[fredbob524]

It's not that what a librarian does is necessarily horrible it's just that it is not needed, either it trys and fails to make an assault squad good at assault or it makes hammernators even more balls to the walls crazy which they don't need because if they manage to get stuck for the next player turn or as I like to refere to it safe from return fire that seems like a bonus. FInding a unit to beat them is not easy.

 

Thade we have had this arguement before and you were jut as wrong then when u recommended thy be run in rhnos as you are now but shall we have this out in another thread, I will make one tomorrow no holds barred arguing only 3 rules:

1 we don't talk about the thread

2 we are not so good at math

[Reinholt]

I find the captain is often the best way to assassinate an opposing character, especially if you are playing with a lot of marines or chaos marines as opponents. The captain can have a bike (all sorts of advantages) or a jump pack.

 

I have a friend with a captain on a bike, with a thunder hammer, and he often finds his way directly into the face of whomever the opposing key leaders are, and pounds them into snot with the hammer. This is barring true monstrosities like Lysander that require a different plan, but multiple attacks with a thunder hammer (and needing to take out a T5 3+/4++ character with three wounds to avoid having them thrown at you) is not friendly when you can very quickly deliver it wherever you need on the field.

 

Chapter Master is useful for the unit he unlocks, if you talk to those who like them.

[Arikel]

One thing to note also is that chaplains are CHEAP. They are the walmart hq of spacemarines, and don't need any extra upgrades to make them useful, captains have no decent base equipment and libby's have no base invulnerable, which makes a chaplain the perfect hq for either a low points list or if you have nothing else to spend points on.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I personallyl go with Libby. The character is more flexible

[DarkGuard]

One thing to note also is that chaplains are CHEAP. They are the walmart hq of spacemarines, and don't need any extra upgrades to make them useful, captains have no decent base equipment and libby's have no base invulnerable, which makes a chaplain the perfect hq for either a low points list or if you have nothing else to spend points on.

 

The problem here is that Chaplains are not that cheap. Competitively, if you're running one on foot you might as well run Cassius, who costs 125pts. If you run one with an Assault squad you need the jump pack that brings him to 115pts, and IMO for a Chaplain you always need digi weapons, he's only S4!. So often, Chaplains will be 110-125pts at least.

 

Libby's on the other hand, run nicely at 100pts. I keep on hearing of this, "oh but Libby's don't have an invulnerable save so you either need to use a power or buy Terminator armour and storm shield". No you don't. Power armour Libbys running without upgrades are some of the best choices you can take. Remember he'll be stuck in a squad, so as far as shooting is concerned you shouldn't have any problems there. And if you get a PA-Libby in combat it's either your game plan or something has gone wrong. But for 100pts, you have a psychic hood, the ability to cast Null Zone which affects many different enemy units and by extension all of your units that shoots at them, and most likely the ability to use an AP3 heavy flamer, a fantastic power. Of course it depends on how you use it, but most people keep the Libby in its transport to extend the range of its psychic hood and Null Zone, while also keeping it alive. And if that's transports a Rhino, you don't need to get out to use Avenger.

 

Are Libby's in Terminator armour and a storm shield? Yes they are, they are an absolute pain to kill thanks to the 2+/3++. Are they necessary? No, they aren't, PA Libby's are cheap and a fantastic choice for HQ in low point games and even high point games. I've only ever run a PA Libby, and still don't have any complaints.

 

 

As for the Chaplains vs Chapter Masters/Captains, the big difference is that despite the points the Captain has better stats. An additional point of WS, BS, A, I, W etc, plus the ability to cheaply get a 2+ save and S6 if needed, and a 3++ (which the Chaplain can't get) means that beyond the first turn of combat the Captain is better, and you can't run away and get those bonuses unless you have Khan.

 

A Chaplain with an assault squad is vicious; I've used a vanilla jump team and a jump chaplain to deal with TH/SS terminators (with substantial losses to the unit, but choosing to flee - they can't sweeping advance - and charging back in means more rerollable attacks).

 

Sorry mate, don't mean to pick on you, but unless you have Khan you wouldn't have been able to do that. The Chaplain makes the entire unit Fearless, which would override combat tactics as they always pass morale checks. Now if you had Khan he could Hit and Run, but on its own the Chaplain and Assault squad wouldn't be able to fall back and then hit again.

[thade]

Crap, I think you're right; that means either I misremember or defacto cheated at my first tournie, two years ago. Likely the latter. Always something.

 

I insist on TDA/SS for the Libby as I use him as a front line/assault character. Few models manage to be effective assault models without invuln saves. The librarian is T4 with only two wounds; he's fine with ranged powers at range but he can still be fine at range and not fold like a flan when his unit gets mired. It's a personnel preference of mine, but a strong one. The catch, of course, is he can't ride in Rhinos. One way I've addressed this is with teleport homers on tactical squads. Move them into position and by the time the Libby DSs, the Rhino's probably crippled or gone anyway.

 

But typically I stick him in a LR. :)