Taranis Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Yesterday I was soundly defeated in a 1750 point battle. End of turn 1(edit: turn 7!) I had an immobile Landraider left! This left me with a clear feeling of needing something to handle multiple MC's. He fielded: 2 x soulgrinder 2 x master of change 4 x 10 bloodletters. 1 demon prince. I fielded: Librarian, shield, sword. 10 Ras, 2 Melta, Fist. 10 Ras, 2 Melta, Fist. 9 DC, 2 Pw, 1 Fist, Landraider, EA. Baal AC, HB sponson, Dozerblade. Baal AC, HB sponson, Dozerblade. Landspeeder, HF, MM. Vindicator, Dozerblade. Vindicator, Dozerblade. 20 points left. I could use help on my army, but do it in the army list section please: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=231565 What I intend with this thread is to find options vs Monstrous Creatures! So please options here, army critique/aid elsewhere. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 How did he do his damage to you in turn one? I assume he had his unit deep-strike onto the field - how did he then proceed to wipe out your entire army? Can you give me a run-down of what the process was? I'm still learning to play myself and insights like this are invaluable to me. Once you explain what happened, I may be able to help with suggestions for countering him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadLift Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Furioso Dreads here could help you out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 First wave was soulgrinder, 10 bloodletters, 2 x lord of change and demon prince. The rest of his units came one at a time per round with the soulgrinder coming turn 4. He got me in a corner and I lost both preds to assaulting bloodletters or shooting MC. All his MVH had flying ability and with eternal warrior was difficult to shoot down and I would loose my assault marines in a charge. My dc with librarian went 4 rounds vs 1 soulgrinder and the demon prince. Prince survived with one wound and soulgrinder survived but was immobile and had lost both dreadnought ccw. what I feel happened was me not having chances in close combat and my shooting not inflicting enough wounds/saves. His army was geared vs mech and his job was to bring a tough army for my list. He did and I need to find better counter measures. Not specialize vs specific but increase ability to hurt high T models reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Furioso dreads will take str 5 or str 6 +2d6 armor pen from the MCs. Two lord of changes If I am not mistaken come standard with bolt of change which is str 8 ap 1 24 inch range that will hit on a 2 so, those dreads might get popped pretty quick too. I think a squad of TH/SS termies with a 2x LC or two in the mix would be great for taking out anything. Not only does this squad take out MC's, they take out pretty much any other deathstar too. My stepson runs his with a priest which makes those guys nasty on the charge. It really makes those lightning claws deadly too. Str 5, int 5 power weapons that reroll wounds is pretty good at dumping some early wounds on the big gribblies, and then the hammers bring it home. He also tends to stick a TDA libby with a Stormshield in there with UR, so a fair bit of time they are rerolling hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Furioso Dreads here could help you out Vs nids yes, but it being demons he beats me on the initiativ and would wreck me before I get to strike. And its speed is 6". Perhaps a librarian furiosos, but still trouble with initiativ. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Furioso dreads will take str 5 or str 6 +2d6 armor pen from the MCs. Two lord of changes If I am not mistaken come standard with bolt of change which is str 8 ap 1 24 inch range that will hit on a 2 so, those dreads might get popped pretty quick too. I think a squad of TH/SS termies with a 2x LC or two in the mix would be great for taking out anything. Not only does this squad take out MC's, they take out pretty much any other deathstar too. My stepson runs his with a priest which makes those guys nasty on the charge. It really makes those lightning claws deadly too. Str 5, int 5 power weapons that reroll wounds is pretty good at dumping some early wounds on the big gribblies, and then the hammers bring it home. He also tends to stick a TDA libby with a Stormshield in there with UR, so a fair bit of time they are rerolling hits. its options like this I'm looking for. Shooting units could also be handy. I'm thinking sternguard with poisoned shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sledgehammer? I think you may just be looking for a Thunderhammer... or several, each attached to a Terminator with a Storm SHield :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Ah, sorry. I misunderstood - I thought you were saying at the end of your turn one, you had nothing except an immobilised Land Raider, which had me hella-confused. In terms of reliable damage against high-Toughness creatures, you either want to go ranged or you want to go close-combat. For ranged, Honour Guard, Sternguard and Devastator Squads can all pack a fair wallop. If he's forced to deep-strike on turn one (I don't know the Daemon rules for deployment?), hold in reserve what you can so you can drop on top of him turn two and pick off models with meltaguns or plasma guns. Devastator Squads in cover with either plasma cannons and a Sanguinary Priest attached or with missile launchers/lascannons will dish out the hurt to plenty of units. I'm a big fan of ignoring mech entirely, given how good our base armour save is compounded by the number of specific anti-mech lists that exist in the game. My attitude is that an attack which would normally destroy a tank is wasted against MEQ, so you make a host of his weaponry redundant. If you want to go for close-combat, the only weapons we have that reliably dish out the hurt to high-Toughness targets are power fists and thunder hammers. However, they attack at the bottom of the Initiative ladder, which means if you want to have your boys stick around to hand out the pain, you want either a big, relatively cheap squad with plenty of ablative wounds (Assault Squad with ten guys and a power fist) or you want plenty of durability (Terminator Assault Squad with thunder hammers/storm shields and an attached Sanguinary Priest in Terminator Armour) to ensure that your damage-capable weapon/s is/are still around to have a few words with your target. I guess I'm not saying anything groundbreaking and I suspect that this is a lot of stuff you've already considered and discarded, but I can't think of anything more useful to give you, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Thanks for giving it a go. The problem is go into cc binds me and I am almost guaranteed to be counter charged. All his units ignore armour saves and therefore also FnP. Shooting needs to overcome high toughness and inv save. Preferably being done on the move. ;) Mobility is important in my BA. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 i dont know your list seems pretty solid.... you invested a ton of points in your DC but other then that i cant think of anything to change... mind you i think its unlikely you will come across more armies so MC heavy again.... so if this list is for a tournaments i wouldnt change to much about it after losing 1 game ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 My experience with MC heavy lists has worked a few ways. 1. Tons of shooting like Baals and whittle them down or Devs with Missile Launchers/Plasma Cannons. 2. Set up a bunch of RAS/HG melta/plasma units as a group to hit MCs can take them down quick, and if they survive the onslaught of melta you can assault to finish them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Your list is actually set up fairly well against MCs, although the Vindicators are not really pulling their weight I think. You also really want at least one, and maybe two Sanguinary Priests to make your ASM scary in assaults and more survivable. BA on the charge (and assuming a Priest in range) are very dangerous to most MCs- they rely heavily on T6 to avoid taking wounds, as even 3+ saves fail fairly often (as I'm sure we're all aware.) For this reason it is imperative that you dictate the charges to your opponent- and with BA's superior mobility, this shouldn't be a problem. You will take casualties from them, as they are excellent at killing Marines, but S5 and Power Fists should usually carry the day in the end. Soul Grinders are incredibly difficult to kill in close combat, except by MCs or other walkers- you'll want to be aiming your Meltaguns at them whereever possible; AV13 is a lot less impressive when you're rolling 8 + 2d6. Deployment is also key against Daemons- start everything on the board and keep it together, spreading yourself in between some terrain pieces so he has to either arrive a fair distance back (and thus spend 1-3 turns running towards you, since you're faster than him) or arrive close and risk mishapping on your units, the terrain, etc. "Castling" like this is the most important part of beating Daemons and other Deep Strike armies, and once you learn it they become a piece of cake. His units are better than you in CC- there's nothing you can do about it, that's just the way Daemons are. However, YOU will get to choose where the charges happen because you are better at moving than him- so whittle him down with shooting and then move in for the kill. Bloodletters are nasty, but if they get swamped by two squads of ASM on the charge, they will go down. Most Daemons have crappy saves, so forcing a ton of wounds onto them is a great way to ruin their day, and striking ahead of them makes it that much better. If you're looking for other options... Assault Terminators are really good against MCs, but you'd have to drop the DC to fit them into a Land Raider. (You don't want them on foot trying to charge something.) Sanguinary Guard are okay, but extremely fragile to return attacks. Sternguard can be an option, since they have the 2+ poison ammo. (MCs hate having to take saves, as I said.) Dreads are NOT a good solution to MCs- many of them will have higher initiative than you and with 2d6 penetration they will end your day very, very quickly- AV13 on the front is great against a Power Fist, not so much when they just need a seven on two dice instead of a six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fury Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Combi-preds. With 4 high strength shots each they offer great anti-mc and ranged av, which you are lacking in your list. It would be an easy swap for you to just replace the Vindicators with combi-preds, and have points left over. With 2 full RAS and a big ol DC, you have good horde control, so the vidis won't be terribly missed there, and against MCs/vehicles 1 ap 10 shot isn't as good as 2 S9 and 2 S7. Your list is 1745 total so there is only 5 points left over. I'd suggest swapping in the preds and the libby out for a Reclusiarch (if the HQ is going with the Dc then you might as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I also think your army is pretty solid. The only point I would think is not so good is your lack of a Priest or an HG. This makes sure that some of your units are charging at S5, I5, really worth it to take on MCs and even Blood Letters before an assault. To fund a priest perhaps you could drop that Landspeeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son Of Moriar Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hmmm..... I'd drop a Vindie and think about running 3 MM attack bikes; fast enough to get a cover save and cause enough problems with their nice I'm gonna melt you a$$ weaponry.... need to juggle the points a bit but the attack bikes work wonders for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I'd suggest droppin the LR and fitting in 2 DC dreads with talons and an aextra DC marine (takign them to 10-man squad). Your dreads will force his bloodletters to avoid them - but can still threaten any of the MC's with meltaguns, S6, re-rolling wounds and bonus attacks. What you want to avoid is his 10-man stong bloodletter units getting hold of your infantry until after they've had the chance to gang up on a MC and PF ist to death... So shoot the bloodletters, try and set up a dreadnought charge, use your mobility to avoid combat until he's spread out too far and focus your attacks if he's still got untis in reserve - much better to wipe out 1 unit (and thus an Icon for summoning) than only damage 2 untis and him having a choice of wehre he wants that reserved unit to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Thanks for the many good suggestions and advice. I hope others also can benefit from it. In 4 days I have a rematch and need to decide on strengthening either my 2 x 10 assault marines or my volume of reliably wounding shots. I have chosen to exchange my assault marines with 10 scouts w HB and 4 sniper and 10 sternguard in rhino with 2 heavy Flamer and 4 combi Melta. Combat squads and possible using the transport for protecting and or moving scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 In my 1750 BA list I have 4 lascannons 2 demolisher cannons and 6 melta weapons fillowed up with Mephiston's str 10 high inititive slapin' power. It makes a mess of all MC heavy lists as well as Mech. It's about concentration of fire power, take something down then move onto the next target, unless you're haveing aweful luck with your dice then it's it's best to cut your losses and pick a different target. You'll be close for counter attacks using your melta weapons but keep your units within close reaction range with each other and you'll be able to take care of it. Some times it's best to feed a unit to the enemy to give you a few turns to manouver and deal with other units, but don't thow them away. I'll often use my Assult squad with a fist to tie up low attack walkers or MC for a few turns taking off a few hits before they break or die (or better kill it). That gives me enough time to tackle other elements of their army with out fear of heavy weapons fire and or tank busting combat. I'd also recomend adding more bolter fire to help take on troops as the more dice they have to roll the more they should fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Big DC with a chappy works wonders for all the above mentioned problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Angel Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Seth. I am not kidding. In two games i played the other day, he killed a daemon prince and a tyranid HQ choice, all by himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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