Vanguard v. Assault terminators

[fredbob524]

I have decided to start this thread for a couple of reasons namely I was having a bit of a disagreement with Thade about them in another thread and I have already filled my thread derailment quota for the month on another forum so I figured I might as well make a new thread.

 

So here are a 4 ground rules:

1. Assault termies are always th/ss in this thread the other type does not exist

2. Keep it civil

3. We still are not so good at math

 

I will start this out:

Okay so we will assume that we want to get our unit whatever it might be to our opponents, here Vanguard Veterans actually have more options for transport they have hoofing it, jumpacking it, rhino/Razorback, Drop pod landraider, and of course ds with heroic intervention

Lets talk about each of those options:

1. hoofing it, I think e can all agree this is a silly idea, next

2. Jumppacks are more viable but I must remind you that alot of armies pack some pretty rough amount of firepower so this is viable only if you plan on advancing behind vehicles and even then it's quite risky and jump pack are expensive minimum 50 pts for the squad bringing a 5 man squad to a minimum of 175 pts

3.Rhino/razorback, razor is basically a more expensive vehicle in this case which if they want to shoot they cannot get closer to your opponents. They both suffer from the major problem of not being able to move and then have an assault launched out of them.

4. Drop pod, a really good way to ritually sacrifice your awesomely modeled and expensive squad to your opponents to sate the dice gods allowing you to go for the win with the great rolling it shall certainly get you. Basically a great investment

5. Landraider, Unfortunately this takes up one of your hs slots which means one less pred so sad panda :D

6. Heroic intervention, this is a great option for blood angels because they sactter one less d6 and they have a re-roll for reserves so they can come in when you need. But in C:SM they lack both of these making it also a major risk

 

Now Assault terminators, they have four options, Hoofing it, dsing, and a landraider

1. Hoofing it, slightly better than vanguard due to the increased survivability of a 2+/3++

2. Deepstriking, a really good way to ritually sacrifice your awesomely modeled and expensive squad to your opponents to sate the dice gods allowing you to go for the win with the great rolling it shall certainly get you. Basically a great investment

3. Ah the landraider, a good choice for both however for terminators it does not take aways a pred, just a dread :P but overall the ability to assault on the move is excellent

 

Now on to armaments we will start with the easier one first, Assault terminators. As stated before they have one armament and one alone the other does not exist in this dojo.

 

Now Vanguard veterans, for Fairness I will be happy to add any armaments others run here as there are a ton of choices.

I will start this off with two extreme examples

1. 5 guys nothing else 125 pts give them jumpacks that jumps to 175 with one power wep thats it

2. Please not this would be a crazy load out in my opinion it's just to demonstrate stuff 335 for th/ss load out, with jumpack 385 I must repeat used only for demonstrative purposes not recommended.

3. Thades loadout:

1. Power Fist/BP

2. Lit Claw/BP

3. Lit Claw/BP

4. Lit Claw/BP

5. Storm Shield/BP

6. Storm Shield/BP

7. Chainsword/BP

8. Chainsword/BP

270 pts

 

Now that those are done lets go to what I believe is the meat of the situation. The survivability factor. as an example 9 rapid firing space marines will put 18 shots down range 12 will hit the terminators 6 will wound and on average 1 will die. Whereas 4 marines rapid firing and and a sarge shooting his pistol will put 9 shots downrange 6 hitting 3 wounding and one dead vanguard on average.

 

So a vanguard squad will die a lot easier to small arms fire but what about the more worrisome wounds, the 5 wound ap 1 and 2 shots. Lets say for good even math 4 guard hwt shoots them with lascannons 12 shoot 6 hit and 5 wound 1 and 2/3's terminators drop compared to the 5 dead vanguard. but lets say your good and you found cover that knocks it down to 2.5 dead vanguard so not huge there.

 

Lets move on to assault where cover does not come into play. Lets say for fun they are charged by 6 grey knight terminators with halberds and hammerhand went off 18 swings, 9 hit and 6 wound. Tat means 2 dead terminators or 6 dead vanguard. to make up the discrepancy they would have to have brought along 9 total guys to the terminators 5.

 

Let's keep this civil people and make this the go to thread for Vanguard Veterans and Assault Terminators. Discuss Away

[Meatman]

Ok, comparing the two is kind of a moot point. Yes they are both combat units, but they come from different slots, and terminators will (point per point) out class vanguard in 1 to 1 comparison. I'm going to mainly focus on transporting them, as others can probably do a better job with weapons etc. You just wait till Thade gets here :devil: (Unless he ninjas me)

 

 

Terminators need a land raider if they want a transport. This not only massively increases their points cost, but also limits the unit size depending on the land raider and if there are any ICs attached. On the up side, you get a land raider. This keeps the terminators safe®. To get to them, you need to bypass AV14, then the 2+/3++ or 5++ saves. Tricky business.

 

Of course, they can deepstrike. But unless they are shooty terminators they cannot do anything the turn they come down, and the larger bases makes it more hazardous. Or you can footslog, but at 6" +D6 running a turn movement (assuming no terrain or intervening models), it will take them a long time to get where you want them. Unless you use them as a backfield camper, in which case that's 200 points spent sitting around waiting for your opponent to come and get them.

 

 

Now, the obvious comparison is that people stick vanguard into a land raider so they can move it, disembark, and assault the same turn. In this situation, terminators will always win. The only thing the vanguard get as a bonus is that they can get 10 man + ICs in the raider. But again, points per points, after wargear, terminators still win.

 

 

Sticking vanguard into a rhino or razorback is a cheap way to transport them, but these also have downsides. Obviously AV11/10 is easier to kill then AV14, and you cannot assault out of them if you have moved. You can protect the rhinos from LOS and gain cover easier because it is smaller, but AV11 will always be easier to kill then a raider. On the upside, you've just saved about 200 points by not buying a land raider. This can be used to buy wargear, or add other threats, like another tactical squad, or a pair of typhoons etc.

 

 

Jump packs are 10 points per model, so at a 10 man squad you're 100 points down before you start buying weapons, and you're still no more survivable from shooting. On the up side, you're always getting the benefits of moving fast. No autocannon or lascannon will render the squad footslogging.

You can also deepstrike, and with heroic intervention, you have a good reason to do so, doubly so if you are BA.

[fredbob524]

um that kinda summarized what I just said...

[Meatman]

Well sorry for going into slightly more depth. Normally a summary 'summarises' I believe I added to a few of your points.

[Koremu]

Yours was in a readable format too

[DarkGuard]

And it also seemed less biased. Forgive me fredbob524, but I already know that you disagree with thade in that you prefer the Assault Terminators, and it seemed to be like you were giving Vanguard Vets an unfair case.

 

But all I'm going to say is that you can't compare them. Ever. They do different things, in different ways, and for different people. They are in different slots, with different wargear options, and different methods of playing. Hammernators are a sledgehammer, they sit around in a Land Raider, often with a character, and are aimed at the biggest, toughest target and let go. But it's 500+pts in one basket, not amazing IMO. Vanguard, on the other hand, are more flexible, being able to sacrifice people on wound allocation, take low AP hits, and dish out higher initiative anti-infantry attacks and anti-MC/walker attacks. They can play wound allocation games better, and if you only put them in a Rhino they save you a lot of points that can be spent elsewhere.

 

Really, we can't really compare for the same reason you can't compare Honour Guard and Terminators. All of these assault units have a niche. Honour Guard are firm anti-infantry while hammernators are anti-elite. Vanguard sit somewhere in between, able to soak up low AP wounds better than Honour Guard but not as well as hammernators, but more likely to have redundant wounds and a selection of weaponry allowing them to turn their hand at any job that needs doing.

 

And all seriousness, it should be good that hammernators have their weaknesses and some people want to use other units, as otherwise we'd all be stuck with hammernators and that would be rather boring.

[Leonaides]

Assault termies are always th/ss in this thread the other type does not exist

In honesty - right about here was when I lost interest. you want to compare 2 units that do completely differnt things, so you immediatley rule out half of one of those units weapon options. Does it sound worse if I was to say - lets forget that Vanguard can actually take power weapons, so we're only comparing them with fists or thunderhammers vs Assault termies... Foolish, especially in a thread set up to compare the two.

[sofacoin]

Enclosed, below, is me givin' a biiiiig long rant quoted from another place on B&C. I'm very anti-Vanguard, considering them one of the worst things in C:SM- but pretty good in BA!- so it is biased... but it's biased from both personal findings in play and simple math. Open, and enjoy the TL:DR!

 

Still, I said that because Vanguard can be quite awesome if you kit them out correctly with only a few upgrades here and there. For almost 300 points (which is cheaper than the Hammernators and compulsory Land Raider), I can field 8x guys with a Relic Blade, Power Weapon and 2 Storm Shields and JP's. This combo is quite awesome imo, not *too* expensive, but a fair price for what the unit can accomplish.

Although, you do need to base tactics/army list around them for them to be effective, meaning they can't just be dropped into any army, like Dreads or Dakka Preds.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree again. First, on these guys, lightning claws are much better than power weapons; 16 Power Weapon attacks > 8 hits > 4 wounds against 12 Lightning Claw attacks > 6 hits > 3 wounds, 4.5 after reroll.

(And, in fact, that's 16 without taking into account two men just swapped their bolt pistols and thus 2CCW bonus for storm shields: 14 attacks is 7 hits, 3.5 wounds.)

 

The thing is with Vanguard Veterans is the lack of a 2+ save. They die as quickly to small arms fire or low-quality CC as a 5 man tactical squad for three times the point cost, with only a little protection from heavy weapons from the storm shields, and they can't ride in any transport; their deep-strike scatters an average of 7 inches, and is thus as unreliable as any in the vanilla codex.

Footslogging terminators are much, much more survivable, in that they take twice as long to kill by small-arms or low quality CC. They also cost less, and while they move just under 2/3rds the speed of Vanguard Veterans, they're also better in CC- lightning claw terminators get as many attacks on the charge as power weapon and bolt pistol vanguards and reroll to wound, thunderhammer terminators get the same attacks as lightning claw or relic blade veterans and are more likely to wound and can actually hurt tanks.

A footslogging Vanguard is either in combat or it's getting shot; on average, they take 9 bolter shots to kill, or 12 normal CC attacks. A terminator takes twice this number.

A similarly equipped biker command squad costs 15 points more for 16 lightning claw (+ 4 normal) attacks on the charge, but also 5 toughness- putting them at the same durability as terminators- and Feel no Pain, doubling it. They can also turbo boost, reaching the enemy faster still than vanguards. Plus, of course, biker commands can take special weapons to do the entire anti-tank thing.

 

The worst thing about them is the cost. They are actually very expensive- that's over a quarter of your points in 1,000 games, and for the cost of unit you mentioned, one could buy a full squadron of Land Speeder Typhoons, or two Rifleman dreads, or fill out one's Heavy Support with predators. Bottom line: They're very, very expensive for an easily killed anti-heavy-infantry unit that costs more still to be anti-tank that can't hide in transports.

 

Now, here's the most important bit of this tl;dr essay.

If you have to have jump-packing marines, they should be Assault Marines, who are at least cheap. Two units of five Assault Marines with lightning claw sergeants will set you back 35 points less than five Vanguards with lightning claws, and gets six lightning claw attacks and 32 generic attacks.

First, the six lightning claws on the sergeants will deal as much damage as two vanguard veterans' lightning claws, leaving 9 lightning claws and 32 generic marine attacks. Assuming they're against MEq, each hits on 4+, for 4.5 claw versus 16 hits normal hit. Wounding on a 4+ means that that's 8 wounds by the generic attacks, and 2.25 by the lightning claws- except we reroll those misses, so that's 3.375 wounds. Now, onto saves.

 

Weapon/Save:	|  none  |   6+   |   5+   |   4+   |  3+   |   2+   |
Chainswords:	| 8.0000 | 6.6667 | 5.3333 | 4.0000 | 2.6667 | 1.3333 |
Lightning claws:| 3.3750 | 3.3750 | 3.3750 | 3.3750 | 3.3750 | 3.3750 |
Weapon/Save:	|  none  |   6++  |   5++  |   4++  |   3++  |   2++  | (Invulnerable saves).
Chainswords:	| 8.0000 | 6.6667 | 5.3333 | 4.0000 | 2.6667 | 1.3333 |
Lightning claws:| 3.3750 | 2.8125 | 2.2500 | 1.6875 | 1.1250 | 0.5625 |

 

The above chart displays how many kills those same 32 chainsword attacks compare to the 9 lightning claw attacks. Significantly, 9 lightning claw attacks are worse against any armour with a save worse than 3+, and are worse against anything with a storm shield or better (or in power armour with an iron halo). Each veteran lost will also reduce the combat abilities of the veterans far more than one normal assault marine.

 

Now let's move on to a Relic Blade and four claws against those squads. 6 lightning claw attacks is 3 hits is 1.5 wounds rerolling into 2.75 wounds; three relic blade attacks is 1.5 hits into 1.25 wounds.

Weapon/Save:	|  none  |   6+   |   5+   |   4+   |  3+   |   2+   |
Chainswords:	| 8.0000 | 6.6667 | 5.3333 | 4.0000 | 2.6667 | 1.3333 |
Lightning claws:| 2.7500 | 2.7500 | 2.7500 | 2.7500 | 2.7500 | 2.7500 |
Relic Blade:	| 1.2500 | 1.2500 | 1.2500 | 1.2500 | 1.2500 | 1.2500 | 
Vanguard kills: | 4.0000 | 4.0000 | 4.0000 | 4.0000 | 4.0000 | 4.0000 |
Weapon/Save:	|  none  |   6++  |   5++  |   4++  |   3++  |   2++  | (Invulnerable saves).
Chainswords:	| 8.0000 | 6.6667 | 5.3333 | 4.0000 | 2.6667 | 1.3333 |
Lightning claws:| 2.7500 | 2.2917 | 1.8333 | 1.3750 |  0.9167 | 0.4583 |
Relic Blade:	| 1.2500 | 1.0416 | 0.8333 | 0.6250 | 0.4166 | 0.2083 | 
Vanguard kills: | 4.0000 | 3.3333 | 2.6666 | 2.0000 | 1.3333 | 0.6666 |

Suddenly, the numbers look a bit better: that Relic Blade means the Vanguard, who with just Lightning Claws would never be as good as chainsword-wielders, are now as good as them against hammernators. However, the normal assault squad will still be ahead against any target they would have beaten earlier.

 

Last but not least, Vanguards can't take flamers. Flamers are ridiculously good: every time a flamer template touches a model in cover, it's already done the work of three bolt pistols.

 

[thade]

Hi. My name's Thade and I love Vanguard.

 

Hammernators are super-beefy with 2+/3++, two Str 8 TH attacks (three on the charge) each, and - as Fred's said - DSing them and Foot-slogging them is a very tricky prospect (easy to screw up, so often asserted to be suboptimal) so they'll be pounding out of a LR-variant and have that support fire as they charge in. You can score a unit of five for 200 points, and the Vanguard patterns I run can weigh in at up to 300. Why on earth would anybody take a Vanguard?

 

Well, easiest way to do this is I think to highlight their differences and thus show you where a Vanguard has advantages. Let's assume we're using my standard load-out, which is eight Vets (and I'll use the vanilla Dex, old school):

1. Power Fist/BP

2. Lit Claw/BP

3. Lit Claw/BP

4. Lit Claw/BP

5. Storm Shield/BP

6. Storm Shield/BP

7. Chainsword/BP

8. Chainsword/BP

 

This team weighs in at 270...70 points more than the standard TH/SS five-man squad. What do we get for those 70 points with roughly half the power weapon attacks (and only two at S8)?

• A Land Raider can carry six terminator models...or one unit of five and a single IC. The same LR can carry up to 12 Vanguard...which is actually two bigger than a squad's allowed to have. My squad is eight, meaning I can fit several ICs in there with them. Chaplain + Hammernators is awesome, but consider Chaplain + mean IC like Calgar or Vulkan + a Techmarine. Not to mention that later in the game ICs can hop in there with the Vanguard if their own transports get grounded. Swap out that Chaplain for Cassius. Mmmm.
  
• That brings me to my second advantage: if the LR gets crippled, the Vanguard can hop into a Rhino and keep moving; the same can't be said for Terminators.
  
• In fact, the Vanguard can take a Rhino in the first place. Not as solid as a Raider, nor can they charge out the same turn it moved (so you lose some shock value) but it's easier to hide (behind other Rhinos or scenery) and you never have to weigh between moving all-out versus moving 6" so you can fire guns on the LR. Who cares about the storm bolter, seriously?
  
• Vanguard get to shoot before they charge in because they're packing pistols.
  
• Flak Grenades mean they can charge into cover and strike at Initiative...which, by the way, is not uniformly 1.
  
• More models in the unit means they can cover more ground when they spread out, allowing them to more easily engage multiple units at once (in a multiple assault). Not to mention the shenanigans and games you can play by snaking that unit out through tight corridors.
  
• More models mean as models die, I'm less likely to have to take morale checks.
  
• Vanguard can perform Sweeping Advance and don't hit as hard on the charge, meaning they are more likely to stick it out until round 2 and finish them off then: you don't want to just rush in there, wipe the target, then trust your Storm Shields and 2+ will hold you into the next round. I honestly feed TH/SS units small units so that they do expose themselves in this way. Saturating five identical 1w targets with wound overflow is not hard to do. More bodies spreads that damage out more...if they do wipe the unit on that charge.
  
• Larger units can surround transports and destroy the unit inside after killing them in assault (as they can't disembark with you standing all around it).
  
• Smaller bases have a tiny advantage in that they help to restrict the number of models that reach BtB with you. This only comes up in nightmare tar pits (like imagine two units of Ork Boyz versus your melee squad) but I've seen it and thought I'd mention it.
  
• Variety. Don't you ever get bored with Hammernators?
  
• The challenge. Seriously. Hammernators are the hardiest unit in the game, arguably, and have very clear applications. Vanguard are more fragile but can be just as killy against different units; finding those usages is something I enjoy.
  

Here's a rough example of something I came up against once. My Vanguard versus three Fire Warrior teams. The three teams were lined up gun-line style in clusters (very template-weaponable but he took my Vindi out with his Railguns early) next to each other, equal distance from his table edge (which was close). I wanted to multi-assault, so I moved them such that they were closest to center Fire Warrior and I had them shoot at the one on the left. Bolt Pistol wounds killed three models in that unit, but they did not break. Softened up. I charged that unit - closest model to closest model - but was able to multi-assault easily because of how I'd approached them. I can't remember exactly how it played out on the charge, but I definitely only charged one model at the team on the right.

 

I crushed the center unit, wiping them out with wounds. The leftmost unit failed it's morale check and fled (off the table, but it was cut down below half anyway). The right unit only lost one model and passed it's check, so I piled into that unit. Sweeping Advanced killed them in his Assault Phase, allowing me to move the Vanguard into cover (the LR was the last transport I had on the table and it was ferrying my tactical squad to his control point...smoking, gunless, and making a troubling rattling noise).

 

How would you have engaged all three of these units at once with your Hammernators? I've done similar things with IG and Eldar.

 

This particular Vanguard variant is anti-infantry (bolt-pistols + lit claws may have tipped you off). They are on foot: I very seldom gave jump packs to Vanguard in the vanilla dex; when I did, they were explicitly for counter-charging, hiding behind my gun-line (in hard cover if I could help it); exactly the way I would use a jumping assault team. HI is a waste of points in almost all cases; the only way it's really helpful is if you have a Drop Pod army and/or are a ninja with Scout Bikes and Locator Beacon saturation can guarantee both that:

• you land on and kill what you have to;
  
• the Vanguard is not out in the middle of enemy-ville all by themselves after they eat whatever Devestator squad they landed on.
  

I can go more into my thoughts on HI if people are curious, but I think the request was for me to talk about packless Vanguard. The cost alone of JPs makes me wary of using them with Vanguard, and HI is - as I've alluded to - very difficult to use correctly (especially in the Vanilla dex). It is a strength they have and something that Hammernators can't do though; perhaps worth addressing.

 

@sofa: as I'm writing my post, I see yours. I'll read it after I proof and post this one. :wacko:

 

EDIT: My big bulleted list up there assumes your IC (like mine) is in TDA. If he's not, of course you can fit two in there with the Hammernators.

EDIT: Added flak grenades to list of benefits; how did I forget that?!

[thade]

I'm very anti-Vanguard

Don't sweat it, I get that a lot.

 

The thing is with Vanguard Veterans is the lack of a 2+ save... Footslogging terminators are much, much more survivable...

Vanguard (and really, any melee unit, be they assault teams, jump teams, Hammernators...) should not be in front of your gun-line, charging on ahead. Really the name "Vanguard" couldn't be more of a misnomer. Vanguard are for counter-charging; they should be mixed in with your tacticals/gunline or behind them. There they'll get a 4+ infantry cover save.

 

So much criticism leveled against Vanguard involves their durability; they trade-off durability for the other advantages they have (listed in my previous post). There are applications where you definitely want Hammernators; for instance, if you want to DS them into the middle of your opponent's deployment zone and harry his units out of their positions. Or maybe you need an anti-Walker team or anti-Mephiston posse. If, however, you want to engage multiple units in awkward positions and leverage Sweeping Advance, you may consider Vanguard.

 

A similarly equipped biker command squad...

My chapter is a Salamander successor, and so they didn't grow up using Bikes and don't trust them. :wacko: Also they are expensive and don't fit in Land Raiders. Even Khan.

 

If you have to have jump-packing marines, they should be Assault Marines, who are at least cheap.

I feel that this also hinges upon the underlying assumption that the melee team is going to die, and fast. This is 100% true if you charge them on ahead and is the reason I got frustrated with Assault Marines very early in my using them. If they charge in ahead of the gun-line, they will get massacred, they may take a unit with them. If however they are used to counter-charge, or you keep them in cover with your vehicles (or scenery) you will find that even a lowly assault team will earn more than it's points back. Assault teams (and Vanguard) can shoot before charging...and they can also shoot instead of charging. Keep them in cover and enjoy going first against units that don't have Flak grenades...something that Hammernators cannot do. Also, Hammernators don't have Flak grenades...nor do their LC-wielding cousins. They are going at I1 if they charge into cover. Vanguard does not have this issue.

[maturin]

I started using Vanguard because I needed an anti-MEQ (cause they're the most common army around), CC-capable, mobile unit to shepherd my Sternguard.

 

And I needed to do it on a budget. My choices in the vanilla dex?

 

Termies - as has been pointed out, they're not mobile unless in a Land Raider. And ~450 points minimum really breaks the budget.

 

Assault Squad - with a so-so number of attacks and only 1 power weapon (or fist) maximum, and no ability to counter power weapons themselves, they were the cheap choice - but I wanted something with just a bit more "oomph", able to finish off damaged MEQ squads in a turn or two.

 

Scouts - I'd need to steal a transport to make them mobile (LSS squads are too small for a countercharge role) or take a Land Raider. And again, 1 power weapon max with WS3 does not a reliable countercharge unit make. And the rest of my army is filled with them (1 LSS squad, 1 scout bike squad). Again, needed something with more punch and durability.

 

 

What am I left with? Vanguard! And I've been very, very happy with them. Since I'm on a budget, I run mine a bit less pimped out than thade. They're not quite as capable as a result, but still fit my needs quite nicely. They've taken down chaos termies, death company, 20-strong ork boyz, double squads of gaunts, etc. etc. etc. (usually in company with the sternguard).

 

1. Relic Blade/SS (SS keeps the sarge functioning after the ablative men are gone)

2. Power weapon/BP (would have been LC but I'd already made him by the time I read thade/koremu's ideas...)

3. SS/BP

4. Chainsword/BP

5. Chainsword/BP

6. Chainsword/BP

all in a Rhino. This comes in at 240 points, including rhino. They usually run with counts-as Cassius, which ups their points to 365 - still a heck of a lot cheaper than TH/SS + LR!

 

The closest alternative is probably the assault squad, but I'd only be able to take 9 + Cassius, and their overall capabilities would be quite reduced.

[Koremu]

It's worth noting that all this mathematical analysis of the killing power of Hammernators vs Vanguard is completely ignoring the fact that Hammernators can't run down the pathetic broken remnants of the unworthy scum they've just beaten and brutally massacre all of them.

 

Just sayin'

[fredbob524]

yea but they are alive to deal damage the next turn and frankly killing something in two turns mean you don't get shot at in your opponents turn, sounds like a win to me

[Brother Valerius]

5. Landraider, Unfortunately this takes up one of your hs slots which means one less pred so sad panda :(

 

Nah. You can take a LR as dedicated transport for one of your squads of assault terminators. More than that and you're right, though.

[Koremu]

yea but they are alive to deal damage the next turn and frankly killing something in two turns mean you don't get shot at in your opponents turn, sounds like a win to me

Which is a completely different thing from Terminators inability to Sweeping Advance & doesn't affect it one way or the other...

[thade]

yea but they are alive to deal damage the next turn and frankly killing something in two turns mean you don't get shot at in your opponents turn, sounds like a win to me

Koremu is, I think, refering to the case where the Hammer Bros break a unit and it flees: they get away and your termies are exposed to their fire in addition to other squads.

 

Maturin, I don't always trick them out. I give them at least a fist, but Vanilla Vanguard has its place too.

[Koremu]

yea but they are alive to deal damage the next turn and frankly killing something in two turns mean you don't get shot at in your opponents turn, sounds like a win to me

Koremu is, I think, refering to the case where the Hammer Bros break a unit and it flees: they get away and your termies are exposed to their fire in addition to other squads.

Correct. Enemy breaks and flees. Vanguard overrun them and kill all of them, Terminators clunk about & don't. Both get shot.

[fredbob524]

5. Landraider, Unfortunately this takes up one of your hs slots which means one less pred so sad panda :P

 

Nah. You can take a LR as dedicated transport for one of your squads of assault terminators. More than that and you're right, though.

why would you run vanguard and assault terminators?

[thade]

why would you run vanguard and assault terminators?

Personally I wouldn't...but I don't use assault terminators. ^_^ Nor do I think anybody even said this. Nevertheless...

 

The theory holds, however. Each unit serves a very different purpose. Assault Terminators are hardy and can draw a great deal of fire, shepherding enemy units out of their cover. What they can't catch, the Vanguard can.

 

This is also a pretty fluffy unit choice too...if the First Company melee champions are out on the field, you better believe the chapter would dust off its Terminator armor.

[Brother Valerius]

5. Landraider, Unfortunately this takes up one of your hs slots which means one less pred so sad panda :lol:

 

Nah. You can take a LR as dedicated transport for one of your squads of assault terminators. More than that and you're right, though.

why would you run vanguard and assault terminators?

 

Ah, you're right. I misread your post and thought you were stating this as a drawback of assault terminators.

 

That said, I can see why you might want to run tactical terminators which still get a DT Land Raider, so you could still do that if you wanted. Tactical terminators and vanguard don't fill the same role, so it wouldn't be silly the way it would be the way I originally stated.

[thade]

Tactical terminators and vanguard don't fill the same role, so it wouldn't be silly the way it would be the way I originally stated.

You know, more than once I've thought of swapping in my tac termies for my vanguard, just to see how it would change my game. They have a healthy amount of pre-charge shooting and all those fists are pretty awesome. Trouble is, of course, the 5++. They would take some possibly severe losses assaulting even a tactical squad. Against horde units (Ork Boyz without a power klaw burried within) they might be nice.

 

Topic for another thread tho.

[fredbob524]

the real question for that though is who runs their boys with no claw

[thade]

the real question for that though is who runs their boys with no claw

Nobody. That is, until Telion picks them out of that crowd.

 

Since I can't run Telion anymore, I use other methods of dealing with the Klaw. Ork Boy units tend to be big (10+ at least) in games I've been in, so I will Tank Shock! to shape the unit before I charge it, or charge it with something else that can soak the Klaw hits with invuln saves...remember that Klaw can only hit you if it's base is either in contact with one of yours or within 2" of another base in his unit that is.

 

This is difficult to pull off as you might imagine...no way you can guarantee it for all cases. That's why I run a pair of Shield Bearers in my Vanguard.

[spartan249]

I like to use the metaphor of a sledgehammer vs a katana when talking about Vanguard and Assault Terminators.

 

Vanguard are what I liken to a sledgehammer. They're weighty (lot of bodies in a squad), throw out a lot of blunt trauma (tons of attacks), and have the ability to kill just about anything given the right equipment. However, sledgehammers are unwieldy and, if used incorrectly, inflict very little damage. The same is true of Vanguard, who are undeniably effective, but have certain requirements that must be met in order to get the maximum benefit.

 

Assault Terminators have much in common with the katana. They're very powerful, can cut through quite a lot of protection easily, and basically have very little in the way of bad situations for their use. Their one big problem is their lack of weight. The katana is a very destructive weapon, but it is also a focused weapon. It slashes with relatively unparalleled sharpness, but carries little destructive weight when compared with the sledgehammer. Also, if a katana is struck in a certain way, it is susceptible to easy destruction, which is a problem that Assault Terminators also suffer from.

 

As different melee weapons, both have different applications. Vanguard do great when fighting against a large number of rank and file troops, as they have relatively awesome statistics and enough weight to knock those sorts of opponents around. Vanguard fail when they engage any target that does not fall under this category, as these sorts of opponents will either ignore their armor save, go before them, be very resistant to their attacks, or any combination of those qualities. Assault Terminators are great because they sit at the pinnacle of close combat prowess, but suffer when they must apply their power to large numbers of rank troops, as they do not have the weight of attacks or weight of bodies to kill all of them.

[Leonaides]

I think you've got those two the wrong way around there, Spartan249...

Vanguard and Assault termies can have equal numbers in a squad. they both throw out a ton of attacks (though yes, the vanguard can trow out more than the Assault Termies). they both have the ability to kill just about anything. however, I'd say that an assault termie squad has more 'weight' behind it, with the 2+ and 3++ saves, and can also be incredibly unweildy if your opponent takes away their transport. Equally, a big unit of assault termies can be wasted if your opponent simply feeds you a couple of cheap meatsheild units and thats all they manage to kill - thus very litte effective damage.

 

Whereas the Vanguard are undeniably flimsier, and if caught in a protracted fight, it will probably get destroyed.