Army List

[Fated]

So, this list (which I call the Gunline Crusher, which might be a bit ambitious as it hasn't been tested yet(it is also not finished)) is currently composed of:

 

Kor'sarro Khan

 

Tactical Squad I

-10 man

-meltagun, multi-melta

-rhino

 

Tactical Squad II

-10 man

-flamer, heavy bolter

-rhino

 

Scout Squad

-10 man

-sniper rifles, heavy bolter

-camo cloaks

 

Assault Squad

-9 man

-plasma pistols

-sgnt power weapon

-rhino

 

Dreadnought

-lascannon

-missile launcher

 

Devastator Squad

-2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

 

So far, while trying to figure out what this army's theoretical capabilities are, I have run into a problem. Or a few. Here they are:

 

1) dedicated transports:

a) can embarked infantry utilize the firing ports to fire heavy weapons even if the transport has moved (note the term: heavy)?

:) can transports tank shock AND still do (a)?

c) if the transport is taken out and the embarked infantry forced to disembark, can the same squad which destroyed the transport continue firing on the now-transport-less infantry?

 

2) outflank:

a) when deploying units with outflank, do they count as having moved already?

 

3)

a) when you pin enemy units that are giving cover saves to important stuff(priority target for you) behind them (eg leman russ battle tank), do those units still give the priority target a cover save? AKA do they still obscure the vehicle when having Gone To Ground because of pinning?

 

Thanks in advance for the replies.

[thade]

Hi ;) Comments incoming!

 

So, this list (which I call the Gunline Crusher...

I like it. It's subtle. ;) Just like a space marine would like it.

 

When you build a tac squad, keep in mind what that unit's purpose is. Anti-infantry? Objective holder? Melta guns are great in tactical squads, flamers are okay. I'm not into putting heavy weapons in Tacticals as I always keep mine on the move (reserving heavy weaps for my Devestators) but that's just me.

 

In general, don't use heavy bolters; use MLs. ;) Multi-meltas have their place, for sure, as do Plasma Cannons. Heavy Bolters are awesome at foot-slogging Orks and IG, and have some effect against Dark Eldar transports and APs them. Otherwise, you'll be disappointed in them.

 

I like your sniper team; consider Telion if you can find the points for him. He'll make that Scout Heavy Bolter (Helfire, what!) much more dangerous.

 

For the assault squad, I recommend flamers instead of plasma, but that's just me; you might enjoy plasma pistols. Don't put one on the sergeant. Also, a power weapon will disappoint: go with a Power Fist. In fact, every squad sergeant should have one, except the Devestators. PFs buried in your units will help you kill enemy ICs, pop enemy Dreads, and almost guarantee at least a kill a turn for your unit in assault. (You don't want to be the guy that didn't bring a power fist to the party.)

 

I like the number of Rhinos. Is Khan going with the Assault Team? (I'm assuming so as it's 9-man.) That can work. Remember, he can't fit in the Rhino on his motorcycle. ;)

 

Dreadnought

-lascannon

-missile launcher

 

Dreadnought MLs are disappointing to me. Lascannon too, but it's better than the ML. Drop the ML and give him back a claw. If he gets mired in an assault, Str 6 with his face (allowing armor saves) will not get him out. The Claw might, and it both works as a good deterrent for units charging him and in a pinch might help him take out transports or other Dreadnoughts.

 

Devastator Squad

-2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

Honestly, Lascannons are cheaper in your Tac squads...if you want these on infantry, go that route. As for your Devs, give them MLs, fill the squad, and combat squad them. These are your anti-light armor guys; krak missle Rhinos until they open up.

 

a) can embarked infantry utilize the firing ports to fire heavy weapons even if the transport has moved (note the term: heavy)?

Read the Transport chapter in the BRB; the short answer is No, because the models within count as having Moved and thus can only fire Assault and Rapid-Fire weapons (the latter only at 12").

 

:) can transports tank shock AND still do (a)?

Nope, and - if memory serves - they also can't disembark if the tank Shocks, but I may be mistaken about that. The occupants and the tank both definitely cannot fire.

 

c) if the transport is taken out and the embarked infantry forced to disembark, can the same squad which destroyed the transport continue firing on the now-transport-less infantry?

No, the squad fires all at once on the Transport; by the time the Transport explodes, they've already all fired. They can however assault the unit they just exposed. Also, other units that can now see your disembarked unit can fire upon it.

 

a) when deploying units with outflank, do they count as having moved already?

When they Outflank, they move from the table edge they end up on as if their edge is against that edge; so no...but they aren't on the table yet so they'll have to move. ;) You don't just stick them on the edge and get to fire your Heavies that turn. <3

 

a) when you pin enemy units that are giving cover saves to important stuff(priority target for you) behind them (eg leman russ battle tank), do those units still give the priority target a cover save? AKA do they still obscure the vehicle when having Gone To Ground because of pinning?

They sure do. Obscuring has to do with true line of sight, which is unaffected by units Going to Ground. Note that the unit that has gone to ground may gain an improved cover save, but the Obscured unit does not.

[Koremu]

I'd swap the Heavy Bolter for a Missile Launcher, as Thade has said.

 

I don't think the Sniper Scouts, Dreadnought or Devastators work very well with Khan. I would drop all three and look into picking up a squadron each of Multi-Melta Attack Bikes and Typhoon Land Speeders.

 

Multi-Melta Attack Bikes are especially good with Khan because Outflanking a swift platform armed with a Multi-Melta is hilarious. This of course addresses the problem with firing Heavy Weapons on the move, because Bikes are Relentless. On a 6' wide board, a MMAB on outflank threatens every part of the table before it arrives.

[DarkGuard]

I think a small sniper team could work for holding backfield objectives, like in capture and control games. 4 snipers and a heavy bolter comes to 100pts and are quite survivable, although not deadly at all.

 

I agree with Koremu about the melta bikes, and in a Khan list they'll be better than MM/HF Speeders which can't Outflank. Remember that you got that 12" movement onto the board, so you're threatening 36" with AP1, and 24" with AP1 and melta.

 

I'm also going to say that I disagree with thade about the power fists and heavy weapons in Tactical squads (and he knows I do). By all means give a power fist to the Assault squad Sergeant, and a flamer may be better on the squad rather than plasma pistols. But don't feel you need loads on Tactical squads. And take the heavy weapon if you want. The thing about power fists in Tactical squads is that it turns them from bad in CC, to slightly less bad in CC. The things they can kill in assault don't need a power fist, and the things they need a power fist for will still slaughter a Tactical squad in assault. It's a lot of points for taking out that one extra guy, or being a deterrence, and often the better option would be a free heavy weapon which you'll sacrificing only one bolt shot for. Maybe put a power fist in the melta squad if it makes you feel better, as that's their role, but most of the time combi-weapons do better as they increase the squad's capability in the shooting phase.

 

But I do agree with him on the Dev squad, but then I agree with Koremu as well in that there are better options in a Khan list.

 

Also, about the Assault squad, have you not considered a Command squad for Khan? Less men, but you have FnP to compensate, and the ability pack in a few lightning claws/power weapons, a power fist, Company Champion, and if needed, a couple of storm shields. Sure it can get expensive, but with a few more powered attacks at S5, I5 you'd cut through infantry easily.

 

Onto the questions:

 

1a: nope, because the unit has moved. If you only moved combat speed you can fire pistol, assault and rapid fire weapons (count as moving), although you move cruising speed or more you can't fire anything out the top hatch.

 

1b: yes, you can, but it depends on movement speed. You have to declare a movement speed and then move that distance, and no more and no less. So if you declare combat speed, you move 6" do all the tank shock stuff and then can still fire the Rhino's storm bolter and the guys from the top hatch, keeping 1a in mind (so no heavy weapons).

 

1c: nope, the BRB is very clear about this. All shooting in a squad is done simultaneously, so even if your opponent fires a meltagun first that kills the transport, his bolters must still fire at the transport as they shot at the same time as the meltagun where the transport was still there.

 

2a: yes they do. All Reserves move on from their table edge (or Deep Strike) and as such count as moving when finished. This means that you measure the movement from the table edge, and will count as moving. This means that unless your a vehicle moving slow enough, or a relentless unit, you cannot fire heavy weapons when you come on. So you can't stick them on the table edge and then fire your heavy weapons, you have to move them on and won't be able to fire.

 

3a: the target is still obscured, as the unit is in the way. Ideally the rule should be that if you go to ground you no longer count for true LOS purposes, but unfortunately that is not so, so while that unit are digging their faces into the ground the battle tank behind them still counts as obscured.

[thade]

Koremu, I really like how you describe outflanking melta-bikes as "hilarious". Awesome. My chapter doesn't use bike marines, though I do have some half-built scout bikes I'm going to use for their locator beacons and Astartes Grenade Launcher mayhem. Out of place here though.

 

Tactical Squads are very good at something: rapid-fire. That guy with the heavy weapon may never get to fire if the unit keeps moving, and his presence there may influence you to leave them stationary when they should instead be moving. If he has a boltgun, he can be firing with everybody else. Overwhelm the target with hits and it will lose models. Even those annoying terminator-armored behemoths will go down to enough bolter-fire. He is going to roll some ones eventually. I'm all for the assault-level weapon on them (plasma rifle, melta, flamer, depending on purpose) but DG and I are going to have to settle this on a table at some point. :sweat: I will be bringing a power fist to that party.

 

That said, there are certainly cases were a heavy weapon in a tac squad is nice; for one thing, they are super cheap in the tac squad (especially compared to the Dev squad) and combat-squading can (to a degree) mitigate the loss of bolter-fire and movement.

 

Great Crusade can better speak to the applications of Sniper Scouts, but I do support them for backfield objective holding. Crowbar a techmarine or MotF into your list and they will be extremely difficult to unseat from their cover. Just mind flame-throwers.

[Fated]

Thanks for the answers. Now, while I'm not planning on going fluffy any time soon (Blood Ravens aren't White Scars, and I took the guy in order to be able to outflank), is there anything that you would say I need? This is around 1200pts, so would some additional vehicles be good, or would it be more squads? If so, what squads, and what armaments? And to be precise, this is against a certain person that pretty much has an anti-everything army on the field at all times. While giving him an additional 500pts would be bad for my troops health...At least I show up right next to him to deal him some CC damage and pain. So yeah. It's really more of a desperate counter than anything else. Again, thanks for the replies. I'll be taking your advice, although I'm currently at a loss as to how I will be grabbing any flamers for the Assault marines (I'm kinda out of special weapons right now). And those multi-melta bikes...(yes, I would like to have 150pts of 3 multimeltas running around...but...they don't exist). That brings up another question which I have not been able to answer with the codex (cause I can't find said answer). How do you use the bike's toughness? I understand that instant death happens against the model at T4, but what is the T5 about? Calculating wounding?

[thade]

I understand that instant death happens against the model at T4, but what is the T5 about? Calculating wounding?

Correct: when your opponent rolls to wound your bike unit, he or she will roll against T5, even with something that would Instant Death a bike. That said, if the wound succeeds and your save (if any) fails, Instant Death considers only your root toughness...which for a marine character is 4. This will only come up with Khan, as your normal bike marines have only 1 wound a piece anyway.

 

Were it me and I had 300 points to go, I'd consider the following:

- Another scoring unit/tactical squad. I love tac squads.

- Another Dev squad with 4xMLs or even 2xML/2xPC.

- Another Dread: Drop-pod Multi-melta would be a nice compliment to some Multi-melta attack bikes.

- Another Dread: TL-Autocannon arm, DCCW.

- Cassius to ride around with your assault squad; he's a beast.

- PA Calgar. He's a beast, and I miss him dearly.

- A Land Raider Crusader variant is not a bad thing to stick a Tactical Squad into...or even your Assault Squad. Give the beast Extra Armor; it's got slightly more fire power than a Tactical Squad, is more durable, and can carry other squads.

[Koremu]

Koremu, I really like how you describe outflanking melta-bikes as "hilarious". Awesome. My chapter doesn't use bike marines, though I do have some half-built scout bikes I'm going to use for their locator beacons and Astartes Grenade Launcher mayhem. Out of place here though.

 

Oh I don't know. One of the few things funnier than Outflanking MMABs are Deep Striking MM Land Speeders with a Locator Beacon to home in on. Your opponents face when his realisation goes from "those scout bikes are no threat to my Land Raider" to "oh damn 3 Multi-Melta" is priceless :sweat:

 

Tactical Squads are very good at something: rapid-fire. That guy with the heavy weapon may never get to fire if the unit keeps moving, and his presence there may influence you to leave them stationary when they should instead be moving. If he has a boltgun, he can be firing with everybody else. Overwhelm the target with hits and it will lose models. Even those annoying terminator-armored behemoths will go down to enough bolter-fire. He is going to roll some ones eventually. I'm all for the assault-level weapon on them (plasma rifle, melta, flamer, depending on purpose) but DG and I are going to have to settle this on a table at some point. :) I will be bringing a power fist to that party.

 

That said, there are certainly cases were a heavy weapon in a tac squad is nice; for one thing, they are super cheap in the tac squad (especially compared to the Dev squad) and combat-squading can (to a degree) mitigate the loss of bolter-fire and movement.

 

If nothing else, take a Multi-Melta as an insurance against Tank Shock. It's amazing how people won't Tank Shock you when you have one :D

 

Great Crusade can better speak to the applications of Sniper Scouts, but I do support them for backfield objective holding. Crowbar a techmarine or MotF into your list and they will be extremely difficult to unseat from their cover. Just mind flame-throwers.

IMO Sniper Scouts only work in a list designed to work with Sniper Scouts, and Khan isn't it. But yes, ask gc08

 

Thanks for the answers. Now, while I'm not planning on going fluffy any time soon (Blood Ravens aren't White Scars, and I took the guy in order to be able to outflank), is there anything that you would say I need? This is around 1200pts, so would some additional vehicles be good, or would it be more squads? If so, what squads, and what armaments? And to be precise, this is against a certain person that pretty much has an anti-everything army on the field at all times. While giving him an additional 500pts would be bad for my troops health...At least I show up right next to him to deal him some CC damage and pain. So yeah. It's really more of a desperate counter than anything else. Again, thanks for the replies. I'll be taking your advice, although I'm currently at a loss as to how I will be grabbing any flamers for the Assault marines (I'm kinda out of special weapons right now). And those multi-melta bikes...(yes, I would like to have 150pts of 3 multimeltas running around...but...they don't exist). That brings up another question which I have not been able to answer with the codex (cause I can't find said answer). How do you use the bike's toughness? I understand that instant death happens against the model at T4, but what is the T5 about? Calculating wounding?

You use T5 for all purposes other than determining if you suffer Instant Death. You still suffer ID if hit by a STR8 weapon (or better), which mostly affects characters, Attack Bikes & Command Squad Bikers (who don't get FNP if hit by an IDing attack).

[DarkGuard]

@ thade, I do get worried when you say the heavy weapon won't be doing anything while the squad is rapid firing, even if it moves it has a bolt pistol, so that's something. Even if it is a small something, it's a team effort isn't it? :) And by all means we'll have to settle it on the table, and I dare say I'll be running away before the end :P.

 

If you have another 200ish points I'd consider taking a couple of melta attack bikes, or a couple of Typhoons, or a Typhoon and some attack bikes. Gives you some mobile firepower, and the attack bikes can outflank. You'll be fine on scoring units thanks to the big Scout squad (if you keep it) as you can break that down to give you 4 scoring units, while the heavy bolter combat squad can split off effectively.

[thade]

@thade, I do get worried when you say the heavy weapon won't be doing anything while the squad is rapid firing, even if it moves it has a bolt pistol, so that's something. Even if it is a small something, it's a team effort isn't it? :)

Ha! Ironically, it was my tac heavy's frequent usage of his bolt pistol that motivated me to give him a bolt-gun and switch to Devastators in the first place.

 

And by all means we'll have to settle it on the table, and I dare say I'll be running away before the end :P.

Actually, most of my victories have been via attrition and shenanigans; Eldar-like last-turn contesting with Fast Rhinos. Lately I've been taking some staggering losses in games. But you flatter me, sir. <3

 

If you have another 200ish points I'd consider taking a couple of melta attack bikes, or a couple of Typhoons, or a Typhoon and some attack bikes. Gives you some mobile firepower, and the attack bikes can outflank. You'll be fine on scoring units thanks to the big Scout squad (if you keep it) as you can break that down to give you 4 scoring units, while the heavy bolter combat squad can split off effectively.

To the OP: If more models is something you are into, I can definitely get behind the Typhoon band wagon. Those things are great.

[Fated]

I have heard about Land Speeders, but now that the side-mounted heavy bolter is no longer a defensive weapon...It's starting to get hard to justify. And of course, our usual excuse of crying about how wallets cannot handle such a game. Also, this list is against a Guard army. As noted, he has a army that's pretty much tailored to crush large numbers of infantry, and transports. A griffon/basilisk combo, battle tank, blobs w/ autocannons, stormtrooper squads w/ meltas dropping everywhere, vendetta, chimeras with platoon flamer command squads, and possibly a hellhound or additional lemons. So what do I do against such painful firepower?

[thade]

Guard is a difficult game; they have remarkable ranged firepower, and while they're not built for assault they usually number so many that it's a tricky prospect to take them down that way...if you can get there. You have to get there, though, because all of that ranged fire power will likely relieve you of your Rhinos within a two turns.

 

Segment their force, if you can. Close the distance. Seriously follow my Rhino life-cycle. Deploy as far forward as you can and push forward as far and fast as you can. Remember, a Rhino's purpose is to GET YOU THERE and then DIE AND GIVE YOU COVER. If it booms, I'm sorry; it wasn't supposed to do that. <3 But there's still cover to be had in the crater.

 

If you don't get first turn..well, that really sucks. If you can't put your guys behind hard cover or at least get them cover saves for that first round of shooting, I'd almost Reserve some or even everything. They sit around for a turn and do nothing, you rage in off your table edge nearer to their zone and still get to pop smoke. Mind you it's going to be hard on you (more distance to cover, can't call who comes in when) but it's that or try your luck mid-table while he shells you.

 

Pick a chunk of them to focus on and do it. If your Rhinos live long enough, use them to corral and separate the IG force. Get your guys into assaults were you're reasonably sure it will take them two assault phases to win. (This is hard to do, and I admit I'm not as good at it as I'd like to be.)

 

Try to keep something (be it your Rhinos, dead or alive, their own transports, whatever) between you and as much of their firepower as you can; less you get shot at with/the more cover saves you get as opposed to being AP'd, the better.

 

...

 

As you're read all of this, you might be thinking "Hey. Get there as fast as I can. Form a wall of vehicles to cut of LOS and give cover to my disembarked guys. Separate the guardsmen force. I bet I could use Drop Pods for that!"

 

Well, you'd be right. ^_^ In that particular case, DPs might do you well. The game becomes KPs if it's anything other than KP and C&C though; odds are if you commit to walling them off, you will have trouble grounding them/taking or contesting other points. It's a tricky game. Drop an empty DP along with the pack while you leave one or two units on your home objective. I have little experience with DPs, but in theory they'd work well in this scenario. Perhaps someone more hardened with DPs will weigh in.

[Reinholt]

Quick thoughts (caveat: I like the unpredictability mobility brings, and my playstyle reflects that, even with shooting heavy forces, so YMMV):

 

- Don't like devs in an outflanking army. Either they have to march on and lose time shooting, or they are sitting ducks at the start without support, but not threatening enough to be worth it. If you insist on taking them, I like a drop pod for maximum positional threat, as you can have them off board to start as well.

 

- Agree on the comments about the Dread having the CCW, especially considering you don't have much else in your army that is a melee hammer. Dreads truly punish some units in CC, always make sure you can exploit that. Rifledreads are far better for GK.

 

- CC hammer unit in transport, especially if you are outflanking. Command squad / CC termies / vanguard could all be on the table here with what you already have.

 

- Attack bikes, as stated. They are spectacularly awesome with outflank. Laughs and face melting will ensue.

 

- Vindicators and Predators are preferable to the devs; this increases your armor saturation with the rhino / dread presence in the list already, and if you want to keep up or reposition with outflankers, you can move these suckers faster than most people expect.

 

- If you have one pod already, ironclad dread in a pod to come in after the first, so wherever you need to press the advantage with your outflanking units arriving, you can drop that monster down to do it.

[Koremu]

I have heard about Land Speeders, but now that the side-mounted heavy bolter is no longer a defensive weapon...It's starting to get hard to justify.

The Heavy Bolters aren't, but the Frag Missiles *are*, and how many targets were you really wanting to use both Heavy Bolter & Kraks on anyway?

 

Krak enemy transports, Frag & Bolter the contents.

[Fated]

How do you use Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers? Do you declare that you are using them or do you upgrade and leave it alone but still get the benefits (like a chaos icon)? And if only I could infiltrate everything. Then again, this is pretty good for me. I usually don't make it past the 30" line without losing all vehicles and half of all squads.

[Koremu]

How do you use Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers? Do you declare that you are using them or do you upgrade and leave it alone but still get the benefits (like a chaos icon)? And if only I could infiltrate everything. Then again, this is pretty good for me. I usually don't make it past the 30" line without losing all vehicles and half of all squads.

You buy them and any of the relevant events that occur within radius get the benefits.

 

Note though that there are wargear items that turn them off (notably, Land Speeder Storms have a jamming beacon)

[thade]

How do you use Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers

Automagic. You pay the points for it, model it (it's both fun and WYSIWYG), and it's there. When you subsequently deploy something via Deep Strike within range (I think it's 12" but it might be 6") that thing does not scatter.

 

Teleport Homers only work for Teleport-based Deep Strike (i.e. Terminators).

 

Locator Beacons work for everything (Terminators, Land Speeders, Drop Pods, Jump Infantry).

[Koremu]

How do you use Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers

Automagic. You pay the points for it, model it (it's both fun and WYSIWYG), and it's there. When you subsequently deploy something via Deep Strike within range (I think it's 12" but it might be 6") that thing does not scatter.

It's 6"

[DarkGuard]

I have heard about Land Speeders, but now that the side-mounted heavy bolter is no longer a defensive weapon...It's starting to get hard to justify.

The Heavy Bolters aren't, but the Frag Missiles *are*, and how many targets were you really wanting to use both Heavy Bolter & Kraks on anyway?

 

Krak enemy transports, Frag & Bolter the contents.

 

This. Typhoons are fantastic because are dual purpose. And they are dual purpose from 36-48" away! Not bad. And don't forget they can get those side shots on AV10 on Chimeras (I think its AV10) and AV13 on Russes thanks to their mobility. Well worth having a go with.